Island Dog

Join Date 06/2003

+1048

Vista and DRM

I have been reading some articles on the DRM that Vista will supposedly include. I would like everyones opinoins on these.

"Microsoft is taking some heat over a digital-rights management (DRM) feature it's folding into its upcoming Vista (formerly Longhorn) operating system.

The feature, called Output Content Protection Management, encompasses several DRM-related schemes. The one that's raised hackles in several articles and blogs is a DRM-related check that's performed when playing back video on Vista-equipped PCs. According to Microsoft's description, the feature "makes sure that the PC's video outputs have the required protection or that they are turned off if such protection is not available."
In plain English, this means that Vista machines won't be able to play next-generation, high-definition DVDs in their full, high-resolution glory unless they're equipped with monitors that support a new DRM scheme called High-Bandwidth Digital Copy Protection, or HDCP. "

Techweb article - http://www.techweb.com/wire/software/167101037

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Hmm..will Vista refuse to use TV out for any of our current files without signatures?

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There's several proposed DRM schemes. One of them is the DRM enhanced monitor that will simply refuse to show media that isn't tagged. Another that I wrote about recently is the built-in mandatory encryption that WE don't have the key for. No right to play the content? Your computer refuses un-encrypt it for you. That also means that if you want to transfer it over lan or to a player, etc., the computer can veto the process.

I think they will all fail miserably, and piss off more people than they help. Businesses will most certainly not want the hassles that are going to go along with it. Let them dig their graves, frankly. I'm tired of the dinosaurs of the industry, and I think it is high time they screw up and make room for innovation. I think DRM is exactly what they'll use to commit suicide.

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I don't see how this can go foward as proposed. Vista is supposedly a media-friendly OS, but how can it be with such restrictions. Consumers won't go for it.

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Well, I guess I won't have to upgrade to the vista os if this gets ok'd!

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"I don't see how this can go foward as proposed. Vista is supposedly a media-friendly OS, but how can it be with such restrictions. Consumers won't go for it."

People talk a good fight, but next year if a new Emimem CD comes out, and the only way to get it is this DRM, they'll swallow it with a smile. That's the problem with fighting the RIAA. In the end we will sacrifice whatever ethical qualms we have in order to get their damned bread and circuses.

If you can get 40 year olds that watch "American Idol" and 14 year olds yearning for the next rap album to forgo their entertainment for an ideal, you've got them beat. Anyone wanna bet me that they'll do that? If they really create a sytem that makes it hard for 90% of consumers to beat it, they'll beat us.

Look at ITunes, for instance. People should be asking why they have to pay a buck a song. People should be saying that if it is profitable for music companies to sell a CD with 16 tracks for $12, then they ought to be able to sell each track for less than a dollar, especially given that there is no overhead, no CD case, no printing liner notes.

Do we? Hell no, they've sold a BILLION of them. Worse, the damned record companies claim that they need to charge more. I think that is their right, frankly. If the price point is 1.50 or 2.00 per song, they should be allowed to charge it. The problem isn't their freedom to set the price, it is our weak propensity to pay it.

What I see breaking this is the hardware requirements. People faced with a huge media library that won't play, and hardware that they have to replace will be less likely to upgrade. Unless they get enough new material out, and enough to make us swallow it, they'll fail.

The reason I think it will fail is that most entertainment and games now are drek. Period. If this had hit at the resurgence of video games a few years ago they'd have won easily. Instead they are waiting until entertainment and games are stagnant. They'd better hope they can find some new talent and some exceptional franchises to make this go down easier.

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my biggest question is .. what about home movies ? i have family christmas, easter egg hunts,etc that I have transfered to my pc.. they arent digitally signed and i dont want them to be .. they are MY property, made by me for me .. how can they tell me I have to get their friggin permission to watch them on my own PC...???? or that i need their DRM encodeing to watch them or MY pc wont allow them to be viewed??... it seems that they are infringing on my rights as a private individual to manage/view my own digital property.....

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That's the big hole as I see it. It would be difficult for them to distinguish between an unsigned home movie and a bootleg screener.

On the other hand, I suppose with the kind of fingerprinting they have now they could scan the sound track from new media against a db of prints from known sources, and tag the ones that match. There is a swooby little program now that can scan the first few seconds of mp3s and suggest the title and artist.

Still, the db involved to do that with movies and tv shows would be immense and almost impossible to enforce as it stands now. Don't expect them to quit trying, though.

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I think there would be way too many problems created for this to work. If the DRM is part of Vista, I think there would be way too much backlash for it to stay. I remember when Windows ME came out, and we heard nothing but grief from everyone. I think a year later, XP came out. While I doubt Microsoft would put out a new version to get rid of the DRM, they'd probably have to update Vista to eliminate the DRM.

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The only trouble is we have a long history of tolerating LOTS of problems. Were it not so, none of us would have used Windows 95 or 98 for the years we used them. Look at the new Origami project. Look at the media centers coming out. I have a feeling that people are going to start swallowing the bugs in order to get the features.

Granted, there'll have to be a LOT more features, but Origami looks *nice*, so nice that I would even tolerate a little annoyance to use one. If they come up with enough benefit, like the frakking file system they have been touting, a lot of people would put up with their DRM.

I figure I'm going to end up with two desktop PCs. One running Vista and one running Linux.

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There is no perfect computer, though. All the operating systems have their problems. I just want one that isn't intrusive, easy to use, and lets me do what I want. I think XP is pretty good for that. While Vista actually looks pretty good, the DRM is enough to make me avoid it. I guess I'll stick with XP forever.

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il stick with XP until they remove the DRM.......

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il stick with XP until they remove the DRM.......

I'll just stick with XP full stop

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Uhm, common now - the DRM stuff is to allow you to watch DRM protected content - please do tell how you will be able to watch DRM protected content on XP? Vista will simply be able to open locks that someone else has locked - if you do not like the locks then don't buy the locks.

Yikes! Of course you will be able to watch you home videso on Vista - whatever made you think you won't??!!?!

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"Vista will simply be able to open locks that someone else has locked - if you do not like the locks then don't buy the locks. "

No, that's not what has been described.

The Trusted Platform Module – Creating a Safe Public Space or a DRM Nightmare?

"The whole point about Vista is that everything's always encrypted all the time because that enables you to enforce all these rights management rules," Anderson said. "The idea behind rights management is that the rules are no longer set by the person who owns the computer, but by the person who owns the document."

What price for 'trusted PC security'?

If you read up you'll find that the scheme seems to be that the entire hard drive is encrypted, and your computer decides what you are allowed to un-encrypt, not you.

"Yikes! Of course you will be able to watch you home videso on Vista - whatever made you think you won't??!!?!"

Some people, like me, are dubious that they'll be able to tell the difference between unlicensed pirated copies of media and your own, home-made media. Eventually most everything is going to be "signed". How do you fight unsigned, pirated media without hurting people's ability to play their own, legitimate unsigned media?

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Here is another article on "Trusted Computing": Link

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If it's my computer, I want to be able to tell it what to do, not the other way around. One reason I don't like Apple is because they essentially tell you what software you can use on their hardware, and what hardware their software will work on. If I buy my computer I want to be able to use it any way I want. Especially if I'm not doing anything illegal.

I don't need my entire hard drive to be encrypted, and I think it will cause more problems than it would solve.

"The idea behind rights management is that the rules are no longer set by the person who owns the computer, but by the person who owns the document."

Am I the only one distrubed by that quote? If I were to buy a movie and put it on my computer, I own the movie. I don't own the rights the movie, but I own access to it. If they limit my access after a legal purchase, then it seems to infringe on my rights as a consumer.

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Wow, now I'm convinced that Vista is not for me. I do however believe that ways around it will be found. Hackers always find ways, in the end it is still software. I still can't understand why MS dares to take such risk, even though I know most people are just too uneducated to understand the restrictions Vista will put on them.

BTW, has anyone ever notices why it is called Vista? I figure since Vista means view in spanish and the Aero shell has glass features and a has a lot of features that depend on how nice it looks, that the name came from that spanish meaning. What do you guys think?

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Vista is a word in English. And according to dictionary.com, it's of Italian roots. I always found it ironic that vista means a wide or panoramic view, and many of the desktops offered are highly zoomed in photos of grass or leaves. I guess they're trying to be ironic.

I think it's inevitable that people will find a way to eliminate DRM and encrpytion from Vista, whether it's hacking or whatever. But I don't want DRM or a hacked OS on my computer.

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Since it is coming out in Novermber, I wonder how well this will be implemented anyway. I mean, will Vista allow itself to be installed on a machine without the TPM? Of course, then all you have to do is buy hardware that doesn't have it.

I can't remember what the saturation is for machines sporting it is. I know mine doesn't have the TPM, and you can't add it, so those "features" of Vista will not work on my machine. Most new machines have the TPM if I am not mistaken. I don't know if you can buy new motherboards without it or not, I haven't checked.

I know that you can't upgrade a motherboard to have it, though, so if people want the big security features of Vista they'll need to get a machine with the TPM. I don't think Vista will be as bad as all that, simply because they don't have the capability to do this without REALLY annoying people.

By the next OS release, though, I think it will be more of what we are afraid of.

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BakerStreet I read those links you posted and it all enforces my statement: "Vista will simply be able to open locks that someone else has locked - if you do not like the locks then don't buy the locks. "

All that TPM is going to do is better "enforce" what you agree to in the EULA anyway. If you buy something and agree not to copy it, and then subsequently copy it - then you have just violated the agreement. TPM benefits anyone who wants to be a content provider based on policies. Anyway don't blame Vista for improving security - just don't support anyone who tries to rip you off.

Yikes! Trust me - you will have no trouble at all accessing your own home-made content. Do you think Microsoft employees do not have families?

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If you buy something and agree not to copy it, and then subsequently copy it - then you have just violated the agreement.

That completely eliminates one's right to make backup copies. I want to be able to make backup copies of my Music CD's, so I can take them in my car and it doesn't matter whether they fry in the clove-box. I want to make backup copies of my niece's PC games, so it doesn't matter if they are used as a saucer while playing "tea-time" as well.

And I also agree with Baker; how does Vista recognise whether the DVD you want to play is a home-made family-movie or a pirated version of a movie? Anyone who has Sony or other brand-name equipment at home already knows the problem that home-movies often don't play.

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"All that TPM is going to do is better "enforce" what you agree to in the EULA anyway. If you buy something and agree not to copy it, and then subsequently copy it - then you have just violated the agreement. TPM benefits anyone who wants to be a content provider based on policies. Anyway don't blame Vista for improving security - just don't support anyone who tries to rip you off."

You have to understand that many of thes EULAs are legislation by technology then. We have the right under US law to make a backup of our media. These companies agreed to it when they set the DMCA into motion. Now, they want to remove that right through technology.

Worse, they are using their 'strategic partnerships' to make sure all hardware is going to force us to live by these EULAs. In order to use proprietary formats, hardware manufacturers are being forced to carry the DRM technology, essentially making it impossible to create competing products so that the end user can decide whether to support it or not. You claim there is a choice not to enter into these EULA, and yet when they freeze the market to anyone who doesn't adopt the format they offer us no products with which to make that decision.

Forced obsolescence is the extended benefit of all this. We've tolerated it for years as bad as it has been, but now they are contorting the legal system to the point that not playing to their tune criminalizes out behavior. They build "features" into their products that should play on old hardware just fine, and yet forces us to buy new hardware.

It isn't a matter of "want" anymore. Companies that don't "want" to be a content provider based on policies are condemned as criminal. I can't run a debugger on my machine and play certain games. I can't make perfectly legal copies of my media. If all the features of the TPM become standard, I won't have any choice but to ask my operating system permission to act in a legal way with products I have purchased, only to be denied those rights.

You're right for now. I don't have to buy such technology. Eventually, though, if these companies get their way, they'll simply rid the market of any choice I have.

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This whole issue really sucks the big one. DRM this DRM that. I'm tired of these people (Microsoft) sticking it to the consumer. The major problem is the usability of other systems. A system based around the DRM mentality might be a pain in the butt, but think of the alternatives. Apple comps may look pretty, but gaming? I don't think so. Linux systems may sometimes seem like they are stable as a rock. The only downside to Linux-based systems is once again the limiting factor. Gaming on a Linux system? Sure, if you want to spend a few weeks trying to get the game working and even then there aren't many that work. "Oh, you want to use your hibernate function for your laptop?" No go. "Oh, you want to use your USB ports at 2.0 speeds?" Nah, can't do that either. Until there is an OS that can really rock my laptop without me spending the next 5 years tweaking it, I'll have to be a hypocrite; complain about Windows, but still use it. (I'm bitter about Linux

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starkers

Join Date 05/2004

+1153

I intend to upgrade to Vista when it becomes available, but I'll continue to use a dual boot system, with XP Pro as my second OS on a separate HD, and wonder how that would work....if it would bypass the DRM in Vista to make backups of music, etc?

I have hundreds of music Cd's and have ripped quite a few to my PC to save having two appliances running at once, so I'm hoping that Vista, being the primary OS, does not take away this option. I don't have too many DVD's (still using VHS alot) and mostly use my player to view them on TV, but yeah, it is a concern that Vista may interfere with duplicating home movies/pics to send to distant friends and relatives. I live a fair distance from my family, and we frequently share DVD's of this nature, so hopefully MS will not throw a spanner in the works there and make Vista 'that' user unfriendly.

I guess we'll find out soon enough, and if so, I've almost enough spare parts to build a second PC and intall my copy of XP Home to view home mades and do backups.

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It kind of stinks that Microsoft trashed WinFS, but added DRM. That being said, I have no idea what WinFS does, but everyone's making a big deal about it, and I was curious to see it in action.

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