Qbert71

Join Date 04/2007

Buying New Comp - Need Advice Please!!!

Hello All,

I am about to buy a new computer (1st one in 4 yrs!) and have been catching up on technology (wow stuff has changed) but want some savvy people's opinion on what to get as I feel a bit dated.

Basically….

1. I can’t spend over $1,400 or my wife will kill me!
2. I want to get the most bang for my buck specifically on the graphics card (PCI-E obviously) processor & motherboard with upgrade capability if possible (don’t need monitor or perifs).
3. Hard drive around 150-200GB is fine (I can use my old comp and an external drive I have for picture storage, etc).
4. Any run of the mill DVD/CD read/write combo is fine, cable modem ready and basic Vista OS.
5. I don’t want to assemble the system myself (I’m techy but not at that level and don’t have time to fiddle/get it running right so I need a assembled system ready to go).
6. I typically play strategy/TBS type games (GalCiv II Rocks!!!!!) but still want best graphics possible so system will last longer on the tech curve.

Here are some of my questions…

1. Intel or AMD dual processors – your opinion?
2. nVidia or ATI…and what specific card do you recommend?
3. Any recommended motherboard to go after?
4. SLI? Is this important or only for dual graphics cards (which would probably set me over price limit)?
5. PhysX physics cards….I have recently read about these but are they even worth considering or just get a better graphics card?
6. Anything else you can think of or recommend on my purchase.

Please send me specs or links to sites with systems you believe fit these criteria!

Getting this info is a huge help for me, with a newborn

and a distinctly hormonal wife

at home I only have time to work, change poop and kiss up nowadays (if you know what I mean).

A big thanks in advance for your feedback!!!

- Qbert71

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

try these sites;

http://arstechnica.com/guides.ars
http://www.anandtech.com/guides/

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A big thanks in advance for your feedback!!!

Haha, now you look like a total dork, cause no one's helping. Mystikmind excepted. (he's a good man, keep that one in mind). Don't worry, you may yet get help.

p.s, I'll try to get help for you Qbert.

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As Mystikmind mentioned, tech sites are a good place to start ( TechReport and ArsTechnica). Each site will usually have several system recommendations in their 'Guides' section at different price points. For example TechReport refreshes their guide every few months, and aims to recommend systems around $600, $1,000 and $2,000. You mentioned that you didn't want to build your own, so that strongly limits the decisions you'll have to make. The guides will give you a good reference for what a system would cost without the store markup. Personally, I've had good experience with HP computers, but I'm guessing that any of the major labels would be fine assuming you don't have to call tech support.

As for your questions,
1) I'd look at the tech site's CPU guides for this. If pressed, I'd recommend a low 6x00 series Intel. A comparable AMD system might be slightly cheaper but they run hotter than Intel processors, which can lead to faster, louder fans and all many othe minor nuisances.
2) Any midrange card ($150-200) would be good. You're only going to get a choice of 2-4 from Dell or HP
3) You get no choice here, and the companies aren't particular forward with information either (chipset, features, tweak settings,...).
4-5) I consider myself a tech enthusiast and even I consider either of these a big waste of money.

6) One word of caution if you're going to order from one of the online stores. One of the very first choices will be to select a 'base' system that you can further customize. A long time ago, I budgeted $1k to spend on a new system. Rather than buy the ~1k base system, I choice the 'el cheapo' system and upgraded nearly all of the components in the customization step (saving nearly $100 vs the $1k system).

A year later, I tried to install additional memory only to find the 'el cheapo' motherboard didn't support faster RAM although nearly every other contemporary mobo did (including the alternative 1k base system). Neither the product advertising nor documentation mentioned that I was getting a gimpy system. Moral: be wary of ~$300 base systems. They're probably cutting more more than the labeled features to get to that low price.

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Neilo

Join Date 04/2006

+128

The bottom end Intel Dual Core chips would be the way to go, in fact i'm building one of those very soon. Asus and Gigabyte both have great LGA-775 boards and should allow reasonable upgrade ability for the future. For your GPU, me i like Nvidia, couldn't tell ya much about the ATI cards, so maybe a 8800GTS, 7900GTX or 7950GT. A 8800GTX will probably be too pricey as well may the 8800GTS, but with any of these cards i couldn't see a need for SLI, unless you do some serious video editing.....

Vista, really? I'd wait. There seems to be too many issues with drivers just yet so unless you get a great OEM deal for vista wait till Microsoft release Service Pack 1.

These are just my opinions and i am by no means correct on any of them, more often than not you will price will dictate much of your decision.

In the states,
WWW Link

This might give you an idea on pricing, not sure if they build systems though. You will find many online stores that will though.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

I just went through the same thing about 5 months ago but in terms of PC's that's a lifetime ago. In any case I went with an Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 based PC from HP along with a GeForce 7600GT. I should have held out for a 7900GS but what the heck.

I got a reasonable deal but the drive image contained the most God awful collection of crapware that I've ever seen and pretty much regreted going that way from the instant the box arrived. Anyway I did eventually get the drive stripped down to the way I like it and the machine works great for me. I went with a large vendor because, like you, I didn't want to deal with assembling it myself and wondering what to do if for some reason it didn't boot.

The Newegg link that neilo provided is a good source for pricing, but AFAIK you can get everything to build a system from them but they won't put it together and make sure it works for you. I recommend going to www.ibuypower.com and going through one of their system configurators. They have system configurators for Intel Core 2 Duo and AMD X2 based systems and their individual component prices are pretty much the same as Newegg. You also get a vanilla flavored OEM OS installed with a restore disk, and best yet you can still get it with XP instead of Vista. They'll assemble the machine and make sure it works before you get it.

As an example system take their standard case with 500W PSU upgrade, E6600 processor (2 x 2.4GHz/4MB L2/1066FSB), an ASUS P5NE SLI motherboard (9 other mobo choices), 2GB DDR2-800 RAM, 160GB SATA2 drive, 18X DVD+/-R/RW drive, onboard mobo sound and 10/100/1000 ethernet, with XP Pro SP2 all for $1397. Can't beat it with a stick.

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1) AMD
2) nVidia
3) Asus
4) SLI capability is only necessary if you are going to run two graphics cards. I myself don't play any games that would require that level of graphics but then some people just like to have the best bang they can get for their money. Just make sure the mobo has TWO PCI-e slots for just this reason (my Asus mobo only has one...

).
The only other recommendation I can give you is do some research. It isn't that challenging to 'build' a decent system (sometimes for a lot less than a pre-made system)plus you get to make it the way you want it. Make sure you get enough physical RAM and if you get a 'pre-made' system that you add a better graphics card to, make sure the power supply is rated high enough for the wattage recommended by the card manufacturer, which is usually 400 to 550 watts for a midrange card, i.e. nVidia 7600GT.

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A comparable AMD system might be slightly cheaper but they run hotter than Intel processors, which can lead to faster, louder fans and all many othe minor nuisances.

Don't listen to him, I'm running an AMD 3800 and it's as quiet as can be. Thanks to a quiet video card fan as well, I can barely hear the computer running sometimes. And they're quite a bit cheaper than Intel.

2) Any midrange card ($150-200) would be good. You're only going to get a choice of 2-4 from Dell or HP

Again not a good suggestion, especially considering your mention of expectation 6. The mid range cards will soon be obsolete when DirectX 10 starts being used for video games, which will be starting to happen this Christmas. Spend a few extra dollar getting a DX10 card. Right now your options are limited as the Nvidia 8xxx series are the only ones who support it. The 8800 is rather pricey at the moment but there will be a cheaper 8600 version available soon, if it's not out already.

Anything else you can think of or recommend on my purchase.

Get at least 2 gig of RAM. All games are going to benefit from having more RAM to work with. That's one area you don't want to be stingy with, especially considering the cost/performance ratio of adding RAM. It's by far the cheapest way to get more from a system.

As for SLI, I wouldn't bother with it. From the sounds of it, not to many games are set up to be able to utilize it anyway.

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Mystikmind: Thank you for the links, never been to ArsTechnica - it was very informative.

Opios: That guide is great, really gives me a good idea of what is affordable in my price range. Thanks for all the advice too, especially on SLI and PhysX (I thought some of this might be sort of a gimick).

neilo: Thanks for the board and card info. I am concernced about Vista, hope SP1 is coming soon. Good link too!

Mumblefratz: Will check out iBuypower. Thank you for the example and I'm with you on "Death to crapware!"

Evil Stormbringer: 2 PCI-Es and wattage rating - got it! Thanks bro.

Belanos: Yeah, I want to try to get a GPU compatible with DX10. To confirm, 8600 series just came out a couple of days ago...see this link: WWW Link

Thanks to all so far for this excellent advice, I have a much better idea now of what to go for!

Of course, any additional comments are welcome!

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Wait, do I get no credit? Please... Without me you would be distraught.

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Wait, do I get no credit? Please... Without me you would be distraught.

And last but not least, thanks to Serrian for calling me a dork!

JK - I'm actually more of a nerd. Thanks for directing traffic my way.

I had lots of fun at work today suring these sites (just don't tell my boss).

Cheers,
Qbert71

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and what specific card do you recommend?

Just to comment on this since I didn't read anything pertaining to it in anyone else's reply (sorry if I missed something) but the best bet when buying a graphics card is nVidia, preferably under the evga brand name. Obviously, as Mumblefratz pointed out, the 7900/7950 cards, preferably in the GT flavor vs. the GS models (don't ask me why but I go for the GT's while the GS has a strong following as well, guess it's more preference but there are minor differences)would be the way to go. I'm not sure about DirectX 10 cards at this time. Some people say it will still be a few years before you need it, others say sooner than that. Regardless, computers are pretty much 'obsolete' or 'antiquated' soon after you take them out of the box anymore, almost like cars nowadays. So the point is, you will probably find yourself going through all of this again in four years or less, unfortunately.

Anyways, sorry to ramble, evga offers the best nvidia cards and usually offers a three month upgrade period, at least mine did but I didn't take advantage of it. Basically, if you wish to buy a better nvidia card up to ninety days after purchasing your original one you can upgrade and pay the price difference... and yes you have to turn in your old card.

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just to throw my 2 cents in there, that ibuypower website is amazing, just surfed around and built a quadcore system with an NVidia GS8800 and a number of bells and whistles (including vista premium and office 2007) for 2500 -- 3 year warranty and lifetime tech support included -- dell would charge about 4 grand for an equivalent system -- oh and if you happen to have an OS disk they will sell the HD to you unformatted

with that said, one of my friends just custom built his computer, and he was considering getting SLI 8800's -- but then he read a few reviews that said one 8800 is about overkill at this point, so if you manage to squeeze it in there, your computer should be graphics savvy for many years to come (won't be bleeding edge for long of course, but it will survive)

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One small correction of factoid:
SLI (and AMD/ATI's similar CrossFire multiple GPU technology) works regardles of the programming of the game (or any application, for that matter).
Unlike the software graphics manipulation techniques embodied in DX10 or some of the CPU instruction set enhancements, SLI and CrossFire dual card technologies are hardware solutions that operate after the application has "drawn" the content frame and released it for display processing. They are all about using more hardware to "fire" pixels to the screen faster.
That said, those techniques are most useful in games with rapidly changing full screen images; shooters, racing games, some flight sims, some action RPGs; games that benefit from high frame rates. Neither SLI nor CrossFire inherently do anything for your image quality. Neither technology benefits you at all unless you intend to run dual cards at some point (OK, the Nvidia 7950 card is a special case; it technically has SLI between 2 processors, but it is all embodied on one board.) It doesn't sound like you are big into those sorts of games.
As you have already heard, most reviewers are saying that even single below peak NV 8800's (and probably the 8600's) are outperforming SLI dual rigs with older cards. So it looks like the way to go for best graphics price/performance/longevity right now is a single lesser NV 8800 or upper 8600, probably in an SLI or CrossFire capable MB with a spare PCI-E slot, to provide for future enhancement (since your rig/MB is likely to stay current longer than the graphics solution).

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

Haha, now you look like a total dork, cause no one's helping. Mystikmind excepted. (he's a good man, keep that one in mind). Don't worry, you may yet get help.

hehehe thanks,
Well i am glad for this forum, otherwise i would go insane here in my office job. The day goes by much faster if i give a few comments here, if i don't open this forum because i'm too busy, then the day will drag on and on and on and on and on.....

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I built my computer, and the prices on TONS of computer related products are really falling. Ram especially...

Anyways, for a very nice budget PC, check this out $499. Not going to be the most upgradable, but still a good machine. Upgrade the video card and you're set: http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W300&l=en&oc=bddwbbm&s=bsd&ACD=qIpmRjVEu6AJAkm8tYPe&AID=0038386869

AMD Athlon™ 64 X2 Dual-Core 3600+
Genuine Windows Vista™ Home Basic
1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs
80GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
16x DVD+/-RW Drive
20 inch E207WFP Widescreen Digital Flat Panel
NVIDIA GeForce 6150 LE Integrated Graphics GPU
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Accessories
No Floppy Drive Included
No Modem
No speakers (Speakers are required to hear audio from your system)
Dell USB Keyboard
Dell® 2-button USB mouse
Software
Microsoft Works 8. DOES NOT INCLUDE MS WORD
No security subscription (McAfee 30-day trial)
Service
1 Year On-site Economy Plan
6 Months of America Online Membership Included
Purchase is not intended for resale.
Also Includes
E521
Windows Vista™ Basic
Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 7.0
No Digital Music Software Requested
Corel Snapfire Basic - Organize and Edit your photos
Integrated 10/100 Ethernet

If you're looking to build your own, prices on everything are really falling.
You can get 2GB of DDR2 Ram for about $120 if you look around.
A decent AMD dual core processor will run you about $140
A nice motherboard for about $75
the 8600 GTS by NVidia can be had for about $140 these days (its a directx10 card)
I got a 200GB hard drive for $70
A case and power supply can be had for $100 easily.
$150 for Windows Vista
Add on a 19" lcd monitor for $150 and you can have a very nice upgradable PC for not a lot of money.

If you want to build your own PC, let me know and I can give you places to find all this stuff at the above prices

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Wow, thanks again to all for the feedback guys, this is awesome!

I was looking around and comparing some systems over the weekend and I think the ibuypower.com site has the best prices for the money (I agree with you drakonfire, that site is excellent for customizing!). I am going to spec one out and post it here in this thread later on when I get a break at work.

As for the graphics card, I think I'm gonna go with a single nVidia 8800GTS card for now but what I don't understand is they offer 2 versions - a 320 and 640MB version but I only thought the card came in 640? I'm gonna go for the 640 of course but just curious if anyone has heard of this? I have some questions on the type of motherboard and adequate wattage power for the graphics card but will post that when I get the specs on my custom built system.

Lastly...

1. Has anyone had or heard of any issues with ibuypower comps?

2. I still can't decide what to do about going with XP or Vista for the OS! I really want Vista going forward but heard SP1 is coming out at the end of the year? For anyone who has Vista, have you been able to run most of your games (especially older ones) or did you need to deal with driver issues, etc? As long as there are work arounds, I can deal with that and loading newer drivers, etc. Please let me know!

Thx - Qbert71

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

I don't understand is they offer 2 versions - a 320 and 640MB version but I only thought the card came in 640?

The 320mb model is a cheaper version that came out a while afterwards.

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Thanks for the clarification kyro!

Do you have any thoughts on Vista in general? I have read several of your posts and would like to hear your opinion.

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And last but not least, thanks to Serrian for calling me a dork!

JK - I'm actually more of a nerd. Thanks for directing traffic my way.

a pleasure. hope to see you around, bert

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I have bought systems from Ibuypower.com and cyberpower.com(most recently) and even though some of the reviews I read for both sites made me a bit nervous I have been completely satisfied with both systems. I would recommend either company as their prices are hard to beat even if building a system yourself.

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

Do you have any thoughts on Vista in general? I have read several of your posts and would like to hear your opinion.

Haven't used it myself, and don't plan to unless there's at least one service pack out for it before I build my next machine.

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Re Vista:

I am recommending to all my clients to stay away from it.

The extreme built in DRM/Security measures are painful. Too many legacy apps do not run on it - and too many of those do not have versions that will run on Vista. Do not expect to easily download or play musicvideo files from some legitimate sites.

Driver support for it is lagging.

It is an extreme resource hog on current generation hardware.

I have been an MS professional for over 10 years...and Vista IMO is ME2.

XP 64 will be useful for a long time to come (in PC terms)...maybe in 2 years MS will have gotten Vista to where it is an efficient OS...but I'm seriously considering going over to the Dark Side and becoming a Linux consultant.

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...but I'm seriously considering going over to the Dark Side and becoming a Linux consultant.

Ha! As long as it is a digitally re-mastered dark side sans Jar Jar!

FYI...I'm still going to post system specs via ibuypower.com and/or cyberpowerpc.com (both sites have great builders) but work has been hell for 2 days now. Coming soon, I promise, just doing some more rsrch and price comps!

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

Vista will run GalCiv without problems, but it all depends on how you want to use it, as well as what hardware you have.

If you don't have DRMed music or video, it won't be a problem, but if you do then yes it will only be worse.

If you don't have any DRMed content, or if you use iTunes, the experience will be the same as you had before. It only affects Microsoft DRMed content and DRMed DVDs.

It's worth clarifying that the new DRM measures only affect content that has DRM. If you don't use DRM, then you will not be affected.

Security on Vista is much tighter, and Vista is a lot more secure - at the price of occasional UAC prompts. But those mostly appear during installs, and won't affect normal operation of the machine.

The biggest problem is likely to be drivers, and most of those should be resolved by Christmas. I'm running Vista on my own system with no major ill effects.

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This is my first post here, started playing GCIIDA a week ago (love it!) Was very bummed to have the crash to desktop problem when playing huge maps... so I would first advise you - take a hard look at not getting any dual-core "SX-style" (anyone remember the old "SX" processors?)system. After all the problems I've had with CTD on GCII my opine of dual-core is cheeped-out "SX" crap. (See posts re: video/dual-thread crash problems in these forums) None of the fixes posted here work for me BTW.

Also, I bought an el-cheepo "ABS" system from Newegg and was highly disappointed when things started not-working. CD drive went down, cpu is acting weird. Video card was not as great as I thought from the hype, onboard sound crappy and hard to use for anything but listening to the XP startup noise,etc. Had to upgrade sound, video, bios, and ram.

In addition, with all the intrusive (but ever so easy) XP features, I am pretty leery of XP and Vista. If I could, at this point, I'd go with a Linux system and stay away from micro-whatever and spin-tell.

System: ASUS P5WD2 Premium MB//ASUS (nVidia) 7950gt(512) video//4meg DDR-800mhz Ram//Intel 3.0 ghz Pentium D 830 cpu

Does GCII work on Linux yet?!

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