A matter of time , or why god is nonsense

Pmutzu

Join Date 05/2006

A matter of time , or why god is nonsense

Is there a god ,? Simply put , NO . god is A humans way of explaining that which he never will understand (i.e) (god created the universe). bullshit I say.
there is no way that the universe could have had a beginning or will have an end. because of the fact that if the universe had an edge then something would have to reside beyond that edge, then you have to ask ,what is beyond that objects edge and so on. which no matter how hard you try will lead to an infinity of objects one outside or inside the other. so using occams razor which states that all things being equal the simplest answer usually is the right one. the universe has no end or beginning and never has had one.

lesson one
what is matter? the answer is , matter is bound energy

the universe exists in 2 states order and chaos , not the evil kind of chaos but chaos as in disorder .

so if matter is bound energy ,then that would represent order

and if energy is unbound then it exists in its chaotic state

all objects tend toward chaos ,that is the norm . order is the stranger aspect of the cosmos ,as it takes some system to maintain order,be it natural or biological . but do not doubt that if that system expires then entropy will again take hold .
now that being said the whole universe is headed toward an ever increasing state of disorder. eventually the universe will cool to a state where there is no order anywhere and the universe will appear the same in all directions seemingly empty or void consisting of nothing but energy.no matter will exist at this point ,having either decayed by radioactive processes or destroyed by black holes ,even a black hole will eventually "evaporate' given enough time.

so what happens when the universe reaches this state of equilibrium. that is any mans guess but , I believe that the universe can not exist in such a smooth state and it will break similar to a big bang but not centered . therby creating matter anew.over and over ad infinitum.

now some people say that "how could the universe exist forever " forever is a hard concept for a human to graps ,with us being creatures with a deffinite beginning or an end. but it need not be confusing. just realize that eother you have something creating everything ,in which case who created that creator . or it is eternal

there need be no god. everything you have ever observed is completely natural.
except for religion. which is simply an answer to a question with no answer.

choose. either delude yourself so you do not feel so small and insignifigant or just understand that you exist and be comfortable in that fact alone.

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What tech is this by the way? I don't remember this one. (maybe I never researched it in my games)

it is civil service

the steam engine one is pretty good, too. funny how great minds can go so wrong.

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Philosophy is the pursuit of truth, using pure logic, because the senses can be fooled.

Yes, but the mind can be fooled, too. Are you familiar with Kant?

My point being, there are those who will hold forth a belief and call it "philosophy". However, these modernist so-called philosophies are not using these beliefs to pursue truth.

in your eyes, who was the last "true" philosopher?

I have a standing challenge for anyone who says there is no absolute truth.

spacetime is supposedly absolute. however, everything depends on your definition of "truth".

If there are no absolute truths, you will not absolutely be struck by a car. Rather, you might turn into a butterfly.

funny. i will NOT be ABSOLUTELY struck by a car, just likely. in some universes, i will be struck, in others i won't. i am not going to gamble on it, though, for two reasons:
a) no matter the outcome, i would endanger the lives of others, which is forbidden by my code of ethics.

the experiment proves nothing.

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Yes, but the mind can be fooled, too. Are you familiar with Kant?

This guy was something else. He believed you should always tell the truth no matter what. You should always tell the truth even if it means a close relative would die. The critique of pure reason is supposed to be one of the hardest books to understand ever written.

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in order to form a cell membrane you have to have proteins. however in order to have proteins you have to have life. however in order to have life you have to have cell membrane.

so where did the first cell membrane come from. i know magicilly out of thin air.

What if I said that Zeus and the Olympian gods created the earth and all life on it? What would you say to that? I bet you will say something to the affect that they never exsited and that they were false gods and only your God is the one 'true' god. Yet you offer no proof that your god is the one 'true' god and that all others are false.

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Ballack,
I really want to talk to you in detail. It is an honor to meet someone who has actually had this experience. So basically, you believe in life after death but no God?

What makes you so sure that life continues? What if it was all just random chemicals in the brain, and you just thought you saw yourself? What convinces you???

Well it could have been a chemical reaction but the fact that I could tell what was going on in the Operating room while I was 'dead' was very interesting. This and the ghost experiance I had years before leads me to conclude that something happens after death but what that something is I'm not totally sure. Now I cannot prove to anyone that I saw a ghost nor that the NDE was not a chemical reaction of my brain. However I cannot explain how I was able to describe what went on in that operating room when I was 'dead.'
Now to answer your first question, based off my experiances I would say that something happens but it does not mean that there has to be a god that is making the 'afterlife' happen. I think that it is a natural prossess of the universe or (multiverse) that we have yet to understand. Personally I think the universe is more wonderous than any religion would have us believe. And the only way to unlock it's mysteries is though science.

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You said you saw your body and them working on it in the operating room from above? And some of these details of the operation were confirmed with the docs when you "came back to life"? How long were you just looking at the operation? What was your vision (eye sight) like? Did you happen to see a seperate "spirit body", or were you basically just invisible above your body? How did you feel? How long ago was this NDE?

I know lots of questions, but I am fascinated.

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occam's razor

What? Can you explain this theory? The simplest explanation is the right one? Certainly this doesn't always apply? Someone might say the reason a bug flies is because little buggy buggy flaps its wittle wingses, when really, a little more detailed but still very simplistic answer is cellular energy conversion in the wing muscles moderated by neurologic impulses causes motion in the wings. Said motion in the wings produce lift in accordance with fluid dynamics and due to the wing shape and speed through the air that is enough to couteract the force of gravity. Thus with lift on the insect being greater than force of gravity on said insect, the insect "flies" which is to say it heads actually away from the center of the earth through the air.

i would also like to say that while i do not shy away from confrontation, i do prefer a more rational environment for discussion. in that, i acknowledge your helping establish that, stanley.

Was this a compliemnt or are you joking? I will try to be more objective from now on. Bellack's post really got me thinking. I am indeed not so sure in God anymore, and I do acknowledge that perhaps life can form from a soup of biological molecules. I am still very much convinced of an afterlife after really trying to look as ojectively as possible at near death experiences. Of course, I also believe the Bible is the book of lies.

I am 26 and a junior officer in the Coast Guard. Graduated high school in 2000 and from the Coast Guard Academy in 2004.

Stanley, I wouldn't say that the Bible is a book of lies. It is the acumination of religious writings that were put together by a vote. Many other Christian documents were left out. You got to remember that there were many Christian sects back then. And they all had their version of Christianity. But as with all religious writings they are only based off superstition and belief (faith.)
It brings comfort to many as do most religious writing depending on the faith of the reader. Remember that Religion is a powerful force. And one that has been wielded many times over the centuries to manipulate the populous. It does not matter what the religion is based on (it could be a Talking Potato head) as long as you have enough people to believe in it, then an able leader could harness that power and make it work for him or her. .

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there is no way that the universe could have had a beginning or will have an end. because of the fact that if the universe had an edge then something would have to reside beyond that edge, then you have to ask ,what is beyond that objects edge and so on.

the universe did have a beginning and it will have a ending the universe is 12b years old up to now. when it comes to god i dont know. Pmutzu i have to say this you know f==k all when it comes to space so go and get a life before you say shit like this.

Well unfortunatly you cannot really prove that. After all Big Bang is only a Theory not a Law. I for one also believe that they universe has no beginning or end. At least I have yet to see any proof.

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You said you saw your body and them working on it in the operating room from above? And some of these details of the operation were confirmed with the docs when you "came back to life"? How long were you just looking at the operation? What was your vision (eye sight) like? Did you happen to see a separate "spirit body", or were you basically just invisible above your body? How did you feel? How long ago was this NDE?

I know lots of questions, but I am fascinated.

It seems to me that it was about 5 minutes but I could not tell. And it felt like an intense dream that you just woke up from. Eyesight seemed no different than what I normally have. Apparently I don't get X-ray vision in the afterlife

At first there was a sense of panic then a calmness took over. Hell I thought it was a very cool dream until I discovered (while talking to the Doctor) that what I saw in the operating actually happened. My NDE happened 3 years ago

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Bellack,

i also would love to ask you some questions? like stanley, i am thrilled to be able to speak to someone who experienced an NDE, which is a first for me. i have many questions, many of them technical, but i think important to assess the situation.

-What kind if operations was this?
-Was your life threatened by clinical parameters (heart failure, etc.)?
-if your life was threatened, for how long (how long did resuscitation take)?
-what kinds of anesthetics were you given before and during the operation?
-Did the doctor/ anesthesiologist report anything unusual during/after the operation?
-how long did the operation take?
-What details that you perceived during the NDE were confirmed by the surgeon/staff?
-Did you visit the operation room before or after the surgery?
-Do you think it is possible that your brain constructed an "image" of what was going on from auditory information (what you heard) alone?
-did your brain suffer any damage from the resuscitation, i.e. did you have to go through physical therapy to relearn motor skills, speech, or etc.
-did anybody from the clinic interview you on the NDE?
-did you feel a lasting effect on your life from the experience: are you more content, happy, etc. or less so?

also, i am sorry you didn't have X-ray vision, although this fact is probably a great relief for the nurses

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How is it that a person can remember an NDE? I mean if you are not in your body, then how do your brain cells record the data?

Perhaps your spirit remains connected to your body so it can 'download' what you see as a spirit?

Also how do you 'see' as a spirit anyhow? I mean if you are percieving the light reflecting of objects in the operating theatre then would that not mean those light rays are intercepted? In which case, at the very least, would it not be possible for the doctor to see a pair of faint eyes floating in the room? Or is it possible for spirits to percieve light rays but in no way intercept light rays?

Anyhow, if as a spirit, you can download data into your brain which can be recalled when you wake up, then i do wonder what else can our spirits be downloading into our brains in every day life? Perhaps a 'second sight' really is just that??

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I do remember being unconcious once... you know in cartoons how the guy that gets knocked on the head sees stars circling around his head? well that is really true!

When i was unconcious, i remember standing on a tiny island surrounded by a calm ocean at night. I could see a good number of tiny orange/red lights circling around me in the distance. I percieved the lights at the time as being ships at sea.

Next thing i began hearing laughter which confused me, the laughter got louder and then i looked up and i could see what appeared to be a wavy water surface which quickly got brighter and clearer and suddenly became my normal eyeseight! I was laying on my back with my two sisters laughing at me!!

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You and I have many similar beliefs, we both believe that good and evil are points of view, you take this to mean that there is no God, I take it to mean that people try to make their own sense of things and always try to prove they are right. No one ever believes they are evil. You and I both believe that it does not matter what history writes about you, you because you believe that there is no life after, I because I believe there is.

But, I, unlike you, accept others beliefs and let them think what they will, rather than condemn them and try to tell them why I am right and they are wrong. You annot force your beliefs upon another person.

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How is it that a person can remember an NDE? I mean if you are not in your body, then how do your brain cells record the data?

maybe because your soul doesn't live in your brain. but in your heart.

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maybe because your soul doesn't live in your brain. but in your heart.

but that dousn't answer the question at all. Because while your alive memories are stored by the brain, not the spirit.... otherwise people would never suffer memory loss from brain disfunctions now would they?

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God isn't energy , God is theology.
ok what happens when the universe gets to equilibrium?
then it can only exists in a state of unending entropy.

what are we left with.

Hawking radiation spewing particles into unendinng nothing.

black holes fizzling away to nothingness.

is this that perfection.

the universe is too perfect. no room for imperfection,

God would never have made a universe so perfectly in balance.

He is an egotist after all.

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He is an egotist after all.

why

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Ok I will try to answer as best as I can. And yes X-ray vision would have been great because there were some really good-looking nurses

-What kind if operations were this? Heart Valve Replacement
-Was your life threatened by clinical parameters (heart failure, etc.)? Actually it was after they got my heart going again (after they attached the valve) when it stopped for around 2 minutes which also answers your question below
-if your life was threatened, for how long (how long did resuscitation take)? See above.
-what kinds of anesthetics were you given before and during the operation? Now this I don't remember. I know that I'm not allergic to any.
-Did the doctor/ anesthesiologist report anything-unusual during/after the operation?
Not that I can recall except some internal bleeding but then they were working on my heart.
-how long did the operation take? I think it was around 6 hours.
-What details that you perceived during the NDE were confirmed by the surgeon/staff?
Well I saw them working on me trying to resuscitate me. Mostly I remember the conversations that were taken place (this of coarse can be explained by your auditory question.) However what stands out is that 2 nurses left the operating room and one came back in wearing a orange uniform while everyone else was in green(the clothing that they usually wear in operations. Can't remember what they are called.) This really stood out for me. She went to the heart-monitoring machine, looked at it. Then said something to the Surgeon and ran out. Never saw her again. I did not know that they had uniforms in that color in hospitals (of coarse before I had to have the valve replaced, I had only been in a hospital only a few times. I try to stay away from them

-Did you visit the operation room before or after the surgery? It would be before as they were rolling me in.
-Do you think it is possible that your brain constructed an "image" of what was going on from auditory information (what you heard) alone? Well most of it yes with the exception of the Orange clothing.
-did your brain suffer any damage from the resuscitation, i.e. did you have to go through physical therapy to relearn motor skills, speech, or etc. nope. I was not dead long enough for my brain to get damage.
-did anybody from the clinic interview you on the NDE? I had a nurse ask some questions about it but nothing really official.
-did you feel a lasting effect on your life from the experience: are you more content, happy, etc. or less so? Actually about the same really. For me it was not as big of a life changing event as when I divorced my wife (Now she was a real *&^%$ (difficult person)

If anything it confirmed to me that the consciousness lives on after death. Again I can't really prove this but at least for now until some hard evidence comes in to say otherwise I will believe that there is life after death.

Whew - Hope that answers some of your questions

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Ok I will try to answer as best as I can. And yes X-ray vision would have been great because there were some really good-looking nurses

why would you have wanted to see those Nurse's bones?

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

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Due to the numerous complaints this and similar threads have received, I am locking them and requesting that anyone wishing to continue the discussion take it over to the forums on JoeUser.com (our free blogging/discussion site) as per the stickied notice here in the OTF.

You are more than welcome to hold and discuss your personal opinions and beliefs. But when it gets to the point where it damages the community here, it's time to take a step back and consider whether it's really worth arguing over.

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