A matter of time , or why god is nonsense

Pmutzu

Join Date 05/2006

A matter of time , or why god is nonsense

Is there a god ,? Simply put , NO . god is A humans way of explaining that which he never will understand (i.e) (god created the universe). bullshit I say.
there is no way that the universe could have had a beginning or will have an end. because of the fact that if the universe had an edge then something would have to reside beyond that edge, then you have to ask ,what is beyond that objects edge and so on. which no matter how hard you try will lead to an infinity of objects one outside or inside the other. so using occams razor which states that all things being equal the simplest answer usually is the right one. the universe has no end or beginning and never has had one.

lesson one
what is matter? the answer is , matter is bound energy

the universe exists in 2 states order and chaos , not the evil kind of chaos but chaos as in disorder .

so if matter is bound energy ,then that would represent order

and if energy is unbound then it exists in its chaotic state

all objects tend toward chaos ,that is the norm . order is the stranger aspect of the cosmos ,as it takes some system to maintain order,be it natural or biological . but do not doubt that if that system expires then entropy will again take hold .
now that being said the whole universe is headed toward an ever increasing state of disorder. eventually the universe will cool to a state where there is no order anywhere and the universe will appear the same in all directions seemingly empty or void consisting of nothing but energy.no matter will exist at this point ,having either decayed by radioactive processes or destroyed by black holes ,even a black hole will eventually "evaporate' given enough time.

so what happens when the universe reaches this state of equilibrium. that is any mans guess but , I believe that the universe can not exist in such a smooth state and it will break similar to a big bang but not centered . therby creating matter anew.over and over ad infinitum.

now some people say that "how could the universe exist forever " forever is a hard concept for a human to graps ,with us being creatures with a deffinite beginning or an end. but it need not be confusing. just realize that eother you have something creating everything ,in which case who created that creator . or it is eternal

there need be no god. everything you have ever observed is completely natural.
except for religion. which is simply an answer to a question with no answer.

choose. either delude yourself so you do not feel so small and insignifigant or just understand that you exist and be comfortable in that fact alone.

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the atoms that existed yesterday are the same atoms, albeit in differing states or forms but the same atoms nonetheless
the atoms that will exist tomorrow are the same atoms that exist today but in different states or forms .

actually not quite true, atoms change to different atoms... ie fisson or fussion.

Ahem. An atom of Carbon, will always be an atom of carbon. fission or fusion, would be molocules (a combination of atoms) changing into different molocules, another arangement of atoms, because of pressure, heat, etc..

Example. If you take a molocule of H2O (water (2 hydrogen atoms, 1 Oxygen atom)), take away the hydrogen atoms and add an extra Oxygen atom, it becomes O2, or Pure oxygen.

An even better example would be how a plant turns CO2 into oxygen...

your mistaking atoms for molocules.

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actually not quite true, atoms change to different atoms... ie fisson or fussion.

The purpose of this post was to :
#1 get you people discussing the main drive of our species.

#2 demonstrate that there are things which have no answer

#3 explain my reasons for not believing in a supreme being.

Ah, so you acted like a jerk to peoples religions to get people talking about it?
Bravo...

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"God cannot be measured"

How do we know? Dimension rip with the power of 5 star systems 5,000 years from now, and just maybe we can measure God!!!!

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You guys miss my point with the atoms. We had no idea atoms existed until technology enabled us to see atoms. God could be 100% real in this universe. We just need the technology!!!

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Warning!!! When using Occam's razor be careful not to cut off your head.

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

Geez, can't we keep this all to the existing topics?

It expresses the central idea of atheism. The same idea is illustrated with the Flying Spaghetti Monster and so on. And the cool thing about this idea is, there's no way around it. It's absolutely watertight.

Not really. They only argue against a couple reasons to believe God exists. There are other arguments for the existence of God they don't address.

In addition, they are pure speculation: In theory, they rely on historical records. Reality is records about teapots and flying spaghetti monsters don't exist: The records are themselves theoretical. It's questionable if they can be applied to real life.

please go to your library and look for books written by historians whom lived at the time of jesus christ and you will find not one mention of the man.

Glenn Miller might have some that do. Look through his book lists.

How many historical documents have you read that were created during the time period? How many of them can be found in a local library? Are you absolutely certain I won't be able to find such books at my library?

This may just warrant a trip to my library

Occam's razor might cut both ways, but only one side is sharp. To repeat: The notion that you cannot prove that God doesn't exist is no argument. It has no place in debate. But that's sad for theists, because it is the only thing they have, and since it's hollow, they lose the debates before they started.

Neither side is sharp. The correct answer if there's lack of any evidence either way is "I don't (or can't) know." In both mathematics and quantum physics, there are theorems that may be undecidable. Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem may be a good place to start. Also, look up quantum physics - in particular, the difficulty of finding the exact position and velocity of a particle.

So yes, I believe "I don't know" is a valid answer.

Alas, atoms are not elementary and can indeed be split. Atoms contain electrons, protons, and neutrons. Some atoms have a lot of them (Uranium), some have less (Hydrogen). U-235 can be split using a neutron, resulting in Kr-92, BA-141, and three neutrons.

It's called a "nuclear" reaction and is not to be confused with a chemical reaction.

Example. If you take a molocule of H2O (water (2 hydrogen atoms, 1 Oxygen atom)), take away the hydrogen atoms and add an extra Oxygen atom, it becomes O2, or Pure oxygen.

And if you were to take two hydrogens and combine them using [i]nuclear[i] fusion, you'd get helium.

Not sure what it has to do with God, though.

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The example i was giving about atoms was related to time. since these atoms that make up the universe are only changing forms. (i.e) 2 hydrogen fusing into helium. even though they underwent a transition. the basic constitutent still remains. MATTER!
now A small amount of matter is converted into energy in this process. the vast majority remains.

this is the same matter from a day ago and will be the same matter of tomorrow

since all this matter only exists in the present . time travel is not possible.

there is actually no physical past or future. all is now

the terms past and future are only abstractions referring to changing conditions in the universe from moment A to moment B

the sheer act of keeping time is an abstraction simply meant to convenience ourselves

time does not exist as a dimension or anything else besides the units of time that we devise so we know when to go to work.

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I used to be a steadfast atheist, beliving what could be proved and measured.
Kinda got complicated when I felt His presence lol

However, just about any of the accusations made against just about any organised religion stays just as true with any system of conviction, be it political, moral or elsewhat.
How many lives hasn't been lost to communism, how many havn't starved to death under capitalism or been killed in outright battles between supporters from opposing football teams?

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Ahem. An atom of Carbon, will always be an atom of carbon. fission or fusion, would be molocules (a combination of atoms) changing into different molocules, another arangement of atoms, because of pressure, heat, etc..

Example. If you take a molocule of H2O (water (2 hydrogen atoms, 1 Oxygen atom)), take away the hydrogen atoms and add an extra Oxygen atom, it becomes O2, or Pure oxygen.

An even better example would be how a plant turns CO2 into oxygen...
your mistaking atoms for molocules.

Wow... you should take chemistry! molecules are collection of atoms, fisson splits atoms fusion while fuses them together to make a heavier element....

Pmutzu i didn't mean you were wrong, i was clarifing you are correct in your assurion that matter cannot be destoyed.

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"So, I ask, what drives you? How do you justify a small, insignificant existence? I'm no psychiatrist, but I would imagine that most people who truly realize their own worthlessness would attempt to kill themselves."

There are upwards of 6 billions people on this planet and unknown numbers circling the billions of stars in the billions of galaxies in the universe. God loves all of us equally or the universe ignores all of us completely, which is also equally. Because each existence is equal under both scenarios, neither scenario can add to or detract from the size and significance of any given existence. Whether your existence is large and significant or small and insignificant is down to you. The glass is half-full or half-empty depending on your perspective.

“Or, at the other end, the desire to exploit others.”

I suspect most people gain sufficient validation from their friends and family to prevent the feelings of worthlessness that concern you. Putting it at its most charitable, throughout history there have people whom religion has been unable to deter from exploiting others.

“If our existence is no more than random chance, and not brought about by God - then do whatever you wish, whenever you wish.

Because in the end, it does not (and won't and can't) matter.”

It does not matter in some megalomaniacal save the universe kind of way. The universe will continue with or without you and everyone you will ever meet. It does matter to your family and those who care about you. How you are seen to behave will affect them as well as you. It will also affect how others feel about and treat you. There are some individuals who would not be concerned by this, but they would probably see themselves as being placed in adversity to God anyway.

“It matters not what 'history' writes about you, because that history will be replaced by a new history at some point.”

You will have to live with the history or histories that are being “written” about you throughout your life. You will never see the ones that come afterwards, so how can they matter to you? For instance, Neville Chamberlain died in 1940, hurt by the fact that mainstream opinion had concluded that he was completely wrong over Hitler. What difference did it make to him that a group of historians in the sixties and seventies tried to show he hadn’t been as wrong as people had previously thought?

“It matters not that you do good or evil, because both concepts are merely relative to one another - but not absolute in any case.

If we are not a part of a larger whole - a greater good, than ourselves...
then why do I try to do what is right, at the expense of what is best in my own selfish interests?

Is it simply a misguided attempt to make the world a better place, or to justify the things that I have done (and do) that I see as lacking in some 'ideal of Life'?

If it is a misguided attempt, then I should surely hunt down the OP and kill him - for purely the self-satisfaction of quieting a voice that disagrees with my own thoughts.
And such a thing would not be 'wrong' in any way - if there is no God that determines right and wrong in a way that is above my own bestiality.”

What is good and evil depends on who you are, when you are and where you are. 800 years ago in Europe hunting the OP down just for having, let alone expressing the wrong religious thought would have been seen as good, while tolerance would have been seen as at least justifying your death though perhaps not quite your condemnation as “evil” (“kill them all, God will know his own” attributed to Arnald Almaric, Abbot of Citeaux when his troops sacked Beziers during the Albigensian Crusade).

Today we would probably condemn the Abbot as evil. There is no evidence in the intervening period of God changing His mind about what is good and evil, but we certainly have. People therefore have their own ideas of right and wrong. They do what they think is right because it makes them feel better about themselves, which they can either interpret in a religious or non-religious light. Atheists have consciences just like non-atheists and, according to their own lights, do good, rationalise doing bad, or just plain muddle through like everyone else

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for those of you that get offended by knowledge of ones universe. shame on you.
you need to see that you need no god to be good, you need no god to have a reason for existence,

existence itself is reason enough. for non existance is the biggest fear an athiest has.

as for the religious. the fact that you cannot open your eyes to the truth of the universe,yet instead choose to live in ignorance,then perhaps it is you whom should be hunted. as your kind is the cause of almost every one of the earths problems, including our energy needs. for you probably think armageddon is near and care not for the future 1200 years hence , well some of us have foresight and want to improve the life of our descendants.

my species survival and prosperity is drive enough for me to continue to live . and that brings me the same level of joy as your purported god. which i remind you has had approxamitley 1000 different origins and images,depending on the religion. so perhaps you should battle with the other religions to see who is right

ohhh wait that is goin on right now in the middle east.

good work you and your kind are doing eh?

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I was wondering what book are you preaching out of? I must have missed reading the Gospel of Pmutzu.

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existence itself is reason enough. for non existance is the biggest fear an athiest has.

I'm sorry, but you must be a different kind of atheist to me then. Non existence is not a fear i have. I accept that when I die, there is or will be nothing, apart from the effect I left on the people and world that survives me, no matter how small that may be.

If an Atheist fears non existence, then why would they be atheist? If it frightened them, would they not be more inclined to follow the belief that gives them existence after death?

I can see where you're coming from in your view of faith, but frankly, you seem almost millitant in your attitude, and such millitant attitudes are not worthy of Atheists. We should be working to show believers that we offer a better way in a calm, collected and reasoned way.

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

there is no way that the universe could have had a beginning or will have an end. because of the fact that if the universe had an edge then something would have to reside beyond that edge, then you have to ask ,what is beyond that objects edge and so on. which no matter how hard you try will lead to an infinity of objects one outside or inside the other.

Here is a riddle for you;

If i took a 30cm ruler and stretched it out for infinity in both directions, where is the centre of the ruler?

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Also, look up quantum physics - in particular, the difficulty of finding the exact position and velocity of a particle

Now, that is a good question but not like how you may think: position and velocity are the wrong tools for getting information about a particle while there are perfectly valid tools for macroscopic objects. If you ask an incorrect question you can't get a correct answer

It may be the same case with God: you may be asking incorrect questions. If you want to prove the existence or the non-existence of God, then you are making at least two assumptions:

- first, you have the correct definition for what God is. Who knows, one might argue that the only thing able to withstand the passing of time is the time itself, so God is the time

- second, that God is a scientific theory since his existence can be proved

BTW, what is more credible: the String Theory, a mathematical construction trying to unify the 4 forces in Universe, that is currently untestable. Or out-of-body travels experienced by few people?

And as someone said (maybe Einstein, I am not sure): what is un-understandable is the fact that the universe is understandable.

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

first, you have the correct definition for what God is. Who knows, one might argue that the only thing able to withstand the passing of time is the time itself, so God is the time

A simple definition of God is that he is love. It makes sense to me because as the bible says, we are made in the image of God, in the sense of our emotions not our appearance.

Now as far as love is concearned, i could easily imagine love to be a universal force of nature like fire or lightning but not bound by the same rules as fire or lightning. I could imagine love as being a force that could exist outside of the constraints of time and space as well.

Now the big question is, would love exist if we did not?

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Well, Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein (two fairly well known scientists) would disagree with you. Both were Deists (believed in God).

Between them and you, I'll agree with them

Oh and one more thing...

"all objects tend toward chaos ,that is the norm . order is the stranger aspect of the cosmos ,as it takes some system to maintain order,be it natural or biological . but do not doubt that if that system expires then entropy will again take hold .
now that being said the whole universe is headed toward an ever increasing state of disorder"

So if that's true (things tend to chaos), how did life evolve? This point alone has caused many scientists to believe in a God.

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You have the blueprint problem.In that matter/energy does not have anything inherent within itself to create.It is the clay.The clay needs a potter.There is no ability in matter/energy to design and form the elements of the periodic table as an example.The only example I have is what I see around me.
Scientists say order was created from randomness.I have a new construction company.It is called Random Acts Construction. What we do is get all the materials to the site and sit back and wait for random events to build your house.You might want to shack up in a Motel 6 because it is going to take a while.
No it takes intelligence and desire to create higher orders of things.
And since there is evidence of order in the plant and mineral world,I can only conclude that this also took intelligence and desire to form,something not inherent in the matter/energy alone.This is what I would call God.

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First of all, science says that time can stop, reverse, slow down, and speed up. So why can't it stop. God offers you an eternity in heaven and what do you say..."bullshit"! What the h%#l is wrong with you. Ask any scientist or someone with half a brain. The universe is expanding. That means it had a begining. Chew on this.

"Einstein’s theory of gravity (which has been thoroughly validated by extensive experimental confirmation) and Hubble’s astronomical observations preclude an eternal universe. We now know beyond a reasonable doubt that the universe began at some point in the finite past."

You can take this Link to see where I got this info.Now we understand that there are only two legitimate options for the origin of the universe:

(1) Someone made the universe (Intelligent Design), or
(2) The universe made itself (Random Chance).

"The third option, the universe has always been here, is no longer a feasible alternative -- it contradicts empirical science. No other scientifically plausible theories for the origin of the universe have ever been proposed."

If that doesn't prove anything to you, go get Steven Hawkings number.

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If you guys really want to know badly and really can't wait. Your answer is not that hard to find. It's as simple as dying. Then you can have the answers to all your question about god, the afterlife, the universe. Really painless.

As for me, I think I'll just wait. Having too much fun with Galciv2 right now. Oh, and I'm kinda excited to play Sins of the Solar Empire. I have to wait for that.

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

I am leaning towards believing that time is the mechanism that started the universe.

Before time began, there can be no interaction of atoms, gravity etc etc.... time begins and then BANG! everything begins happening.

I wonder if the universe is not infinite on the basis that time peters out once you travel out too far... but from your perspective, you would never know it!

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This thread is nonsense, and hence a waste of time

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"Where is the evidence for the existence of a Supreme Deity, that does not in itself depend on the existence of a Supreme Deity for its validity"

i have said this before in other threads

water, salt, and ice

now explain something for me

if life was an accident. and we now what it takes to make a cell. and we put all of those elements together how come we can't make that cell live. yes we can make proteans but we can't make that cell live.

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time is relative

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

time is relative

only in the sense of perspective.

An example: you fly away from Earth in a spaceship at half the speed of light, Ok time on Earth appears 50% slower but in reality, on earth itself it is not.

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