A matter of time , or why god is nonsense

Pmutzu

Join Date 05/2006

A matter of time , or why god is nonsense

Is there a god ,? Simply put , NO . god is A humans way of explaining that which he never will understand (i.e) (god created the universe). bullshit I say.
there is no way that the universe could have had a beginning or will have an end. because of the fact that if the universe had an edge then something would have to reside beyond that edge, then you have to ask ,what is beyond that objects edge and so on. which no matter how hard you try will lead to an infinity of objects one outside or inside the other. so using occams razor which states that all things being equal the simplest answer usually is the right one. the universe has no end or beginning and never has had one.

lesson one
what is matter? the answer is , matter is bound energy

the universe exists in 2 states order and chaos , not the evil kind of chaos but chaos as in disorder .

so if matter is bound energy ,then that would represent order

and if energy is unbound then it exists in its chaotic state

all objects tend toward chaos ,that is the norm . order is the stranger aspect of the cosmos ,as it takes some system to maintain order,be it natural or biological . but do not doubt that if that system expires then entropy will again take hold .
now that being said the whole universe is headed toward an ever increasing state of disorder. eventually the universe will cool to a state where there is no order anywhere and the universe will appear the same in all directions seemingly empty or void consisting of nothing but energy.no matter will exist at this point ,having either decayed by radioactive processes or destroyed by black holes ,even a black hole will eventually "evaporate' given enough time.

so what happens when the universe reaches this state of equilibrium. that is any mans guess but , I believe that the universe can not exist in such a smooth state and it will break similar to a big bang but not centered . therby creating matter anew.over and over ad infinitum.

now some people say that "how could the universe exist forever " forever is a hard concept for a human to graps ,with us being creatures with a deffinite beginning or an end. but it need not be confusing. just realize that eother you have something creating everything ,in which case who created that creator . or it is eternal

there need be no god. everything you have ever observed is completely natural.
except for religion. which is simply an answer to a question with no answer.

choose. either delude yourself so you do not feel so small and insignifigant or just understand that you exist and be comfortable in that fact alone.

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This thread is nonsense, and hence a waste of time

that may just be the most true thing I've heard yet!!!

Time doesn't begin, it goes back for an eternity. God created us right? we created god to explain our own existance, correct? So this sorta goes in a complete never-ending circle really, man creates god, who created man, who created god, who created man... add infinitum.

Who's side your on depends on where you think the circle starts. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? The chicken evolved from whatever it was before, but the new evolved version came from an egg, as you see, there is no right answer, the question is the problem.

why do I keep coming back to these athiest threads to talk about this stuff?
Maybe I also wonder about such things, I'm not out to prove anyone wrong, just to state my knowlege, and hear yours and come to some conclusion... whenever we reach one............. (sigh)

P.S.-yeah, I forgot about protons and electrons when I talked about fision and stuff.

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in an explosion

a bird can outfly it.

a human gets killed.

a turtle doesn't even know it took place.

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huh?!??

Don't animals have better senses? Like when the Tsunami hit animals had already been panicing and running to higher ground before any human (on the shore) even knew what was going on. I think thats why the bird would outfly it, I already "sensed" and had taken of with a jump start.

a human gets killed.

Exactly, people wouldn't have invented or used the bomb if it didn't do just that.

a turtle doesn't even know it took place.

And for that matter, neither does the bird, it "saw" a big red fire ball and knew that it was danger, so it flew away. The only one who knows is the human, and he/she is dead.

Edit:P.S.=Danielost, what does that even have to do with god? or atoms? or time?

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[quote] time[/quote

time has to do with metabolism the birds is so fast that it can out fly it. the humans is at the same speed as the blast. so it will get killed. and for the turtle the blast happens so fast that the turtle doesn't even register it. it also will probable get killed. but wouldn't know what hit it.

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

Edit:P.S.=Danielost, what does that even have to do with god? or atoms? or time?

The logical connections are ambiguous at best! lol

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The entire problem with it all is that time does not exist in a universal sence. Time is a human creatation and with out humans there is no time. For animals there is no such thing as time because they have no way of mesuring it. They have no cencept of the future and the implications of what they are doing. It is the gift and curse of humans to be able to think about the past and the future. We are probobly the only creatures that know that we are definatly going to die at some point.

The whole concept of infinity is flawed once again because it is a thing that humans use to describe somthing. Why does the universe have to have a begining and an end just because we do. At the end of the day no matter what dessisions we make and the paths we choose we will die as surly as a rat or a bird. The universe however is not alive it has no concept of the future, the past or the present. Therefore it has no fears and no judgment only cold blackness.

The bible states that god created all things as things for mankind to rule over. However the endless blackness of space is forever untamable. Black holes and a million other things we do not understand will proberbly remain an enigma to us.

Oh, i sort of went off on a tangent for this, you proberly wont understand much of it. Oh well.

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Interesting thoughts...

Oh, btw, very nice measured response Millertime335.
And I understand completely Cowless, nice idea.

I would like to contribute by expanding on something that you picked up on, an element from 'the Theory of Relativity' and a proposal for a scientific study presented to the University of Bradford (Dept of Mathematics, Quantum Mechanics) in 1994 as part of our 'peer-group' project.

The critical concept here is 'belief' or, to rephrase 'belief', understanding.

Let me ask you to comtemplate 'Love' Does it exist or not?

Well, I think that we can all agree, that Love, is an abstract concept, yet it seems to have a similar meaning to us all. We understand, when someone says "I am in Love" just what it is that we are talking about.

However, to all of the people not 'in love' at that time, what they are thinking of is the 'ideal' of love, the abstract concept. They believe it exists and that someday, they will achieve it.

How is this any different from the reality that faces many prople that believe in God, or Eternal life?

Now, Imagine 'Time' this is also an abstract concept, and it too has a similar meaning to all. However, the mechanics of this concept can be proven to exist.

Yes, it is very abstract, measured by us in rotations and intervals (minutes, seconds) but it is real to us. Not only that, we are always concious of it, wether we know anything about it or not. Conciously (as a rational adult) or sub-conciously. (For example a as a 2 week old infant or perhaps a bird that decides that it is time to migrate.)

Now, I submit, that it is not you or I, or the bird that is concious, but the cells that make up our being. They have inate knowledge and they strive to adapt to serve themselves, hence evolution.

If one believes in a God, Supreme Being, Love, Time, or anything else, we dare question the validity, or the logic behind the belief, but not the belief itself.

Anything that you can imagine, can be proven to exist. If not to others, certainly to yourself. In all our minds, we are the constant.

And, now, for the controversial theory...

In fact time does not exist as we know it.
The life/death cycle does not exist.
There is nothing beyond the outer limits of the Universe, because there is no end.
There was no beginning.

Every atom that makes up every cell in us all has always existed.
And, it will always exist.

Now, I for one, find this concept far more exciting than simply believing in a God, but this concept is abstract too and perhaps what I am really describing to a religious person, is God.

Well, our suggestion back then, was that the belief in God it'self isn't far from the truth.

It's just the interpretation that is wrong.

God, is not independent.
We are God! ..... All of us.

If we use the 'big bang theory' to illustrate how this might be possible, given the conjecture above:

If we have always existed, and at some point all matter was concentrated at a single point, then, in thoery, if that matter had conciousness, and, if we were a part of it, then it certainly had the potential to have.

Then, we were once part of a singular conciousness, and omnipitent being?

maybe some day we will come to know the truth, perhaps it's locked away in our atomic
make-up, perhaps the quest to understand it, the drive that we all share to know more, is the very reason for our existance, and not the other way around?

Regards as always,
AOD.

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Does our existance even have a meaning? Do we exist as an accident? Some atoms just happened to run into to each other and form a self conciuose cell, which evolved into a fish which (eventually) evolved into us?

I think time is the difference between where atoms are in space then and now.
Without time, everything would be frozen as it cannot continue, it can only stay.
For example, a fan is blowing behind me which is blowing a piece of paper magneted to the fridge.
I could tell you that before that fan was turned on, the paper did not move. But after it was turned on, the paper began to flutter.
Without time there would be no before and after and therefor, nothing would change.

Time is a human creatation and with out humans there is no time.

We measure time based on our own planets orbital pattern and rotational time.
Humans created a way to measure time, we did not create time.
We also created a way to measure the first three dimensions, we did not create the first three dimensions.

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Neilo

Join Date 04/2006

+128

There must not be a god, as i'm sure he would not have subjected us to yet another inane religious thread. Is there not enough religious threads already, could not this discussion have taken place there?

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neilo you already posted on here your dislike for this thread.

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

Bah humbug! People are mostly talking about time and space which is very interesting.

I will add another post on time... Imagine if our universe is surrounded by a 'time barrier'. Meaning that if you approached this barrier in a spaceship, you would be frozen in time. But not quite frozen, it would be a gradual reduction in time the further in you went. Now of course from your own perspective, you would never know you were getting stuck in time!! Anyone looking at your spaceship also would never know because light and radio communications would not indicate anything was wrong.

I say it is possible that the universe is much smaller than it realy is, perhaps even zero mass, but it is just time giving us our relative perspectives of the universe being infinately huge.

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But not quite frozen, it would be a gradual reduction in time the further in you went.

we call these black holes

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Why does somone need god watching them in order to do good? Just because there is no god does not mean that society should not be civilized. God does not have to be what makes us human. Our philosphy, our own sentience should be enough to dictate our behaviour.

Ironically, religion is the single greatest killer of all humanity and will probably be the cause of its eradication if it should happen.

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

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Ironically, religion is the single greatest killer of all humanity and will probably be the cause of its eradication if it should happen.

Actually it is the humble mosquito that has taken the award for killing the most humans.

I guess if radical muslims get their hands on Nukes then perhaps you could say religion will eradicate us all?

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Religion and Politics are the only reasons for war! And religion happens to start most of them! There were seven crusades. Why do you think so many people supported the war in Iraq?

Why did we nuke japan instead of Germany? Think about it. Germans are white and Christian... Japanese are Yellow and some other religion...

Actually it is the humble mosquito that has taken the award for killing the most humans.

Disease, we can fight. You can become imune to certain diseases, they infect your body. Religion, infects youre mind, and makes you think god exists. It's like a virus that gets you addicted to the virus.

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Religion and Politics is NOT the reasons for war. Mistrust and Hate are the two real reasons for war. What is war really but an over-grown fight between two groups of people. Just because there's more people involve, more people will get hurt.

We all hate something or someone, if you don't, your lying. We just use politics and religion as some kind of excuse why we hate when really, deep down, we hate because something small.

Hitler political reason for trying to mass murder the jews were because he blamed them for Germany's economic situation. He portrayed them as traitors. He said they were sub-humans. Real reason he hated the Jews was because he was denied into Art School by a Jew.

Many of us are the same way but we don't have the drive Hitler did. We are all guilty of it. 9/11 showed us the evil side of religious fanatics. Not all muslims are terrorist, not even 1% of the whole muslim world are potential terrorist. But why do our heart beat a little faster or we become weary when we see a Muslim on a plane? I admit, I get a little aggressive and anxy when I'm on a plane and I see an Arab person. Not Arabs are muslims either, yet we categorize them instantly as muslim and potential terrorist.

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Why does religion have to be demonized? What is religion but a set of belief. Couldn't science be considered a religion? Why does it matter if god exist or not? Why can't we just go on our way and do what we usually do? Go to work, live hand to mouth, and struggle with our misery we call life.

I guess it's because we prefer to blame anything and anyone but ourselves for the bad situations in our life. Find any reasons to blame each other, then kill. Blame god and try to fight him with Denial.

Maybe.. Just Maybe... Your LIFE SUCKS BECAUSE YOU SUCK.

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To go through some random points on here:

delude yourself so you do not feel so small and insignifigant

Actually, many religions promote humility. Infact Christianity teaches that we are no more than dirt.

Hmm, I must be imagining all the parts that the various Religions of Abraham tout about the universe being created for Man...

You insist that if there is a creator, something must have created that creator. Why must this be? If the universe can just be, if there can just be strings and membranes floating around in the void, infinitely colliding and createing universes, why can't it have all started with an infinite being?

The creator needing the creator argument is simply just a play on the constant harping of most Creationists. They claim that everything needs a creator, but then bow out when it comes to their creator. The reality is that it's quite likely that not everything needs a previous point such as we think. It's more likely that we have incorrect perceptions of time - at least incorrect when extended up to levels beyond our immediate reference. Evolutionarily speaking, Humans are only able to naturally relate to certain things. We see objects in front of us as solid - when in reality (we now know) they're mostly empty space - even that rock that hurts so much when it hits you. Two, the burden of proof isn't really on the perspective

So if that's true (things tend to chaos), how did life evolve? This point alone has caused many scientists to believe in a God.

No. It only causes scientists who don't understand the difference between closed and open systems to believe in a god (by the way, god is lower case if it's not in reference to any particular god). Life didn't evolve on Earth by itself - it has a very abundant energy source pushing it along (the sun). If there was no external energy source, and life evolved - and continued to evolve, then you have something. Alas, this common thread among Creationists proves little except their inability to grasp simple physics.

You have the blueprint problem.In that matter/energy does not have anything inherent within itself to create.It is the clay.The clay needs a potter.There is no ability in matter/energy to design and form the elements of the periodic table as an example.The only example I have is what I see around me.
Scientists say order was created from randomness.I have a new construction company.It is called Random Acts Construction. What we do is get all the materials to the site and sit back and wait for random events to build your house.You might want to shack up in a Motel 6 because it is going to take a while.
No it takes intelligence and desire to create higher orders of things.
And since there is evidence of order in the plant and mineral world,I can only conclude that this also took intelligence and desire to form,something not inherent in the matter/energy alone.This is what I would call God.

But there is no blueprint problem. The blueprint is there - it's the laws of physics. Subatomic particles react in specific ways to various inputs - it's a system with (although often times extremely complex) verifiable and consistent outputs with consistent inputs. A set of subatomic particles under the right conditions can create an atom. This atom can join with other atoms to form other elements. This is all fairly well understood at this point and happens through specific laws of physics. These atoms can then interact with each other and form various molecules. And these molecules react differently to various stimuli. There's no intelligence or desire needed here. As Carl Sagan liked to point out - we're just star stuff. Matter all around us was created through the laws of physics, and we know these rules - no need for a Deus Ex Machina "solution."

We also get into what I brought up from the previous quote - we do get more complex structures in non-living matter without design. It's just a matter of inputs. Carbon under pressure and heat can become a diamond - a structurally much more complex and organized object. It just needs an input of energy. Carbon in a closed system is stuck - but once there's input from outside of the carbon - it's a different story.

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Many atheists (which by the way is not a set of beliefs) and many secular humanists (which is) would love to just move along and not bother with the whole matter. There's many more important things to be done (help the starving, cure disease, etc). Unfortunately it's the other side of the equation constantly trying to push in on us.

I guess it's because we prefer to blame anything and anyone but ourselves for the bad situations in our life. Find any reasons to blame each other, then kill. Blame god and try to fight him with Denial.

Much like religion. Religion is a tool of in-out group selection.

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Oops I missed this one.

Religion and Politics are the only reasons for war! And religion happens to start most of them! There were seven crusades. Why do you think so many people supported the war in Iraq?

Most wars are for economic motivations. The Crusades were no different. Religion is often the enabler, but there's ulterior motives most of the time.

Why did we nuke japan instead of Germany? Think about it. Germans are white and Christian... Japanese are Yellow and some other religion...

Or... because we had the War in Europe nearing the end by the time we had two bombs ready. And we were looking at an invasion of Japan that many of the top brass at the time was estimating a minimum of 1 million casualties. Not to mention the need to end the War in the Pacific before the Soviets could gain more ground there.

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Mystikmind

Join Date 06/2004

+20

Religion is more often just another tool of propoganda for war but not the actual cause.

What causes war is that people 'want'.

If everyone had everything they ever wanted then we probably would not even have invented a word for war let alone know what it actually was.

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now explain something for me

if life was an accident. and we now what it takes to make a cell. and we put all of those elements together how come we can't make that cell live. yes we can make proteans but we can't make that cell live.

dear all:
first, life was NOT an accident. if life started on earth, it must rely on processes that were chemically (i.e. thermodynamically) favored under the conditions of the time. the whole point of evolution is that cells did not just appear like: "poof", here i am!
the first step would be catalytic clays, well, catalyzing the reaction of one species of organic molecules into another species. the "new" molecule would then open up new possibilities of chemical reactions. one piece of evidence for this is that many enzymes still use metal ions in their reactive centers.

as for

and we now what it takes to make a cell. and we put all of those elements together how come we can't make that cell live. yes we can make proteans but we can't make that cell live.

i don't know where you've got that from, because it is not only wrong, but actually nonsensical (no insult). in a recent edition of science, scientists transferred the genome of one bacterium into another one. the result was that in due time the cell of the first bacterium transmuted into a cell of the type of the grafted genome. it would say it lived!

same for cloning, in case you have heard of dolly, the cloned sheep? that was done by nuclear transfer.

still not satisfied? craig venter, the man who gave us shotgun sequencing, and by extension, the human genome sequence, now heads a project that intends to put together a completely artificial living bacterial organism for use in drug or synthetic material manufacturing. due within the next year or two, it will be the first ever completely engineered living organism.

in this regard, i also recommend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life

i hope that helped.

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Why did we nuke japan instead of Germany?

we nuked japan because it hadn't been defeated yet.

germany had been defeated on june 6th.

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scientists transferred the genome of one bacterium into another one.

so scientists transferred parts from one living cell to another living cell. that is the same as making a cell that never had life and making it live.

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Religion, infects youre mind, and makes you think god exists. It's like a virus that gets you addicted to the virus.

Lets not talk religion. Lets talk near death experiences. I think that is decent evidence for God and the afterlife. People who have near death experiences are ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED they know God exists. If millions of people said they were robbed last night and you weren't would you believe them? I think you would.

I take it as faith that the bridge on the Missippi collasped. I have not been to the bridge site. For all I know, it is a huge hoax by the bridge companies just to get more money. The entire media has bought into it as well. I believe the bridge collasped because of what lots and lots of people say on the news and such. I also believe other people when they say that Chong Sung We or whatever his name is actually did kill all those students at VA Tech. If you really read these people's stories who have had near death experiences its like why wouldn't you believe in God? Oh yeah, obviously we have evolved for our brains to put on one last grand extremely well put together show (the Near Death Experience). For some darned reason, despite our brains dying having the neurons just diying from lack of O2, etc. our brains put together an NDE that seems more coherent and "real" than reality itself????? How is a NDE possible when are brains are just dieing???

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