A matter of time , or why god is nonsense

Pmutzu

Join Date 05/2006

A matter of time , or why god is nonsense

Is there a god ,? Simply put , NO . god is A humans way of explaining that which he never will understand (i.e) (god created the universe). bullshit I say.
there is no way that the universe could have had a beginning or will have an end. because of the fact that if the universe had an edge then something would have to reside beyond that edge, then you have to ask ,what is beyond that objects edge and so on. which no matter how hard you try will lead to an infinity of objects one outside or inside the other. so using occams razor which states that all things being equal the simplest answer usually is the right one. the universe has no end or beginning and never has had one.

lesson one
what is matter? the answer is , matter is bound energy

the universe exists in 2 states order and chaos , not the evil kind of chaos but chaos as in disorder .

so if matter is bound energy ,then that would represent order

and if energy is unbound then it exists in its chaotic state

all objects tend toward chaos ,that is the norm . order is the stranger aspect of the cosmos ,as it takes some system to maintain order,be it natural or biological . but do not doubt that if that system expires then entropy will again take hold .
now that being said the whole universe is headed toward an ever increasing state of disorder. eventually the universe will cool to a state where there is no order anywhere and the universe will appear the same in all directions seemingly empty or void consisting of nothing but energy.no matter will exist at this point ,having either decayed by radioactive processes or destroyed by black holes ,even a black hole will eventually "evaporate' given enough time.

so what happens when the universe reaches this state of equilibrium. that is any mans guess but , I believe that the universe can not exist in such a smooth state and it will break similar to a big bang but not centered . therby creating matter anew.over and over ad infinitum.

now some people say that "how could the universe exist forever " forever is a hard concept for a human to graps ,with us being creatures with a deffinite beginning or an end. but it need not be confusing. just realize that eother you have something creating everything ,in which case who created that creator . or it is eternal

there need be no god. everything you have ever observed is completely natural.
except for religion. which is simply an answer to a question with no answer.

choose. either delude yourself so you do not feel so small and insignifigant or just understand that you exist and be comfortable in that fact alone.

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which is not the least bit verifiable?

that would be called faith.

and that would be why i am an atheist

it is ok god believes in you

Which god?
And once you answer the question of 'which god believes in him.' Then tell me how you know what this god believe in.

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looks the same to me. but because i don't have a doctorate or something that must mean that i am wrong. and some idiot with one must be right. but then that idiot seems to be able to look at life and say it was all an accident.

the fact that there couldn't be the type of life that we know on this earth unless we had a moon.

the fact that there couldn't be the type of life that we know unless we were in the orbit that we are in.

the fact that unlike the other 5 species that are self aware we are the ones sitting in a house.

the fact that we have been trying to kill each other since the beginning of time over something that just isn't there.

the fact that if all the factors WEREN'T right, we would not be HERE talking about it! But in some other place where the factors ARE right (this is called the anthropic argument).

but i do believe that a computer program and a gene do the same job.

aha! do you notice the difference? DOING the same thing does not mean BEING the same.

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There is nothing more absolutely certain than that GOd exists. Here is my proof, the most basic of proofs:

"If something must be true for us, as humans, to exist, then it must be true because we exist."

as well as "I think therefore I am," and Descartes' other five meditations in which he uses powerful logic to prove the existence of two conflicting forces greater than himself.

As for the order vs. chaos bit, there has never been an example of chaos turning into order on its own, without some intelligent manipulation of energy. So of course you must believe the Big Bang produced order so long ago nobody could have recorded it and it will happen again so long from now no record could possibly still be around.

It's like saying the inside of a watermelon is blue before a you cut into it: you are dodging the burden of proof by stating that the proof for your theory, by definition, can never be observed by a human being.

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On a side note: As for the Bible's validity, there are 4 copies of the Iliad, all written several hundred years after its was originally composed. There are over 5000 manuscrupts of the Bible dating from the time that Jesus lived, all saying the exact same thing. The Bible was NOT written 500-600 years after Jesus lived, and I would dearly love to hear where you got that idea. The New Testament Gospels were written approximately 5-30 years after Jesus' death, by men who were there. True, the books of the Bible were not combined by historians for several hundred years. So what was your point again?

If you are talking about a "History Book" from Jesus' time, you have absolutely no regard for the truth. The Bible IS a history book, as well as the ONLY book from the time of Jesus that we have more than 10 copies of. Now if you want to believe that a book claiming to be from around 0 B.C. of which we have maybe three copies is more likely to be true than a book that we have over 5000 copies of AND that coincides with dozens of other texts of that time period, go ahead. Just don't tell me you're right and I'm wrong about it.

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so lets see if i got this right. the cell membrane is formed by a water bubble.

why don't you come out and say it you have no idea of how life formed and started on earth.

sorry, you got it wrong. the cell membrane is formed by lipids. the compartment surrounded by a membrane can be simplified as "bubble".

why don't you come out and say it: YOU have no idea of how life formed and started on earth. god offers no explanation. science so far offers more than half an explanation. which is better than anything i've heard from god so far.

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in order to form a cell membrane you have to have proteins. however in order to have proteins you have to have life. however in order to have life you have to have cell membrane.

so where did the first cell membrane come from. i know magicilly out of thin air.

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Rynx214: welcome to the mud-pit!

strong words. interestingly, i cannot see the word of "god" anyhere in your descartes quote. to my knowledge, philosophy has since moved away from concepts such as "absolute" or "objective" truths. your "proof" proves nothing. even if there is a truth independent of the human mind, what does "god" have to do with it? to simply say: "we are, therefore god exists" would be just one more example of a logical fallacy, like there have been so many before.

As for the order vs. chaos bit, there has never been an example of chaos turning into order on its own,

bear in mind that the popularized notion of chaos is not congruent with the physical or mathematical definition. physically, the singularity at the beginning of the cosmos was the ultimate state of order. thermodynamically, entropy gives direction to the arrow of time. cosmologically, evolution is fueled by entropic processes (e.g. nuclear fusion in the sun). therefore, "order", as developed during evolution, is consistent with cosmological "decay", or energy conversion to heat. which is not something creationists are usually intellectually able to acknowledge.

It's like saying the inside of a watermelon is blue before a you cut into it: you are dodging the burden of proof by stating that the proof for your theory, by definition, can never be observed by a human being.

talk about the pot calling the kettle black! god is the ultimate watermelon!

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There is in math an equation which operates similarly to this riddle "This is a lie." Now like this riddle logic cannot answer the math problem. There exists within two logical answers which can neither be proved nor disproved. Either the answer is yes this is a lie or no its truth. For those that believe that logic can answer all questions this problem creates a dynamic paradigm.
This riddle then brings about another question. Can logic answer all questions? I should state this: by logic I mean a step by step process to identify truth. Based on the previously mentioned riddle wherein logic can neither prove nor disprove another avenue of argument must be utilized. One then must turn to philosophy an often maligned and underutilized science but, once understood, a science with true value.
Lets then ask some simple questions. Can someone prove God directly? I personally hate this question becuase its so painfully useless. The answer as any atheist/ theist on this board can answer is no. We have no direct evidence of God.
If there is no direct proof then why believe? The answer to this becomes slightly more of an obstacle. I am going to be referencing numerous philosophers indirectly but the argument goes as follows.
How do we know that lieing is wrong? Because if all people lied then there would be no use for truth. If truth does not exist there is no trust and without trust "contracts" between people ie relationships cannot be formed and society cannot funtion.
How do we know that theft is wrong? If everyone stole from each other then yet again there is no trust which leads to the before-mentioned breakdown. Likewise if everyone steals from each other then there is no reason to go out and gain new things like food, water, shelter etc because you can just steal them from soemone else. But eventually with no one adding to the cycle the system also breaks down.
How do we know murder is wrong? Same idea as before. If everyone does it then the whole pyramid of cards comes crashing down.
So why believe in God if there is no logical reason. What values does God represent? Love, honour, justice, happiness, learning. I assume that no one here denies that these are virtues which should be cherished. Without God are these virtues still cherished? I would argue no. There is no longer repurcusions to our actions since God and religion became taboo. If you doubt me look no further than the indiviualist responses put forth in this forum so far. Since the breakdown of God as a reason and the rise of the individual the only person who matters is me. The only controls on actions are the law which as evidenced by violent crime, the lies of politics and the ones we tell each other, is in most instances impotent. The law is bought and sold daily. Don't believe me? How is smoking still legal? How is it that a man can rat out a spy from his own government, an act of treason, and only get a fine?
God needs to be active in society to hold it together. There needs to be soemthing bigger than us which judges our actions, something which can see behind closed doors and into our deapest thoughts. Otherwise the whole house of cards comes falling down as one man climbs over another driven by his individualistic need. In a god driven society all things are communal. It is the tainting of Individualism that destroys all mans greatest works.
Communism should have worked in theory but the problem is those with power want more power to teh detriment of their subjects
Democracy should have worked in theory but is plaugued by politcal corruption.
Capitalism should have worked but yet again the need of those with power to sustain and acrue more power corrupted.
The first thing they teach you in sales is to view the customer as a mark rather than a person.
I can go on but i believe these few examples should show that Individualism is a horrible principle. The needs of the individual should never trump the needs of the group.
The problem with atheism is it admonishes these principles as sacred. Therefore a society built around atheistic principles is inherantly self destructive. Either the rules of law has to be severe in order to negate the value of Individualistic principles which none of us would want to be a part of or society breaks down.
In conclusion the simple principle is this. I have more faith in a God I can't prove bringing order and justice to mankind than I do in mankind ever fixing its own problems.

OK while I do not agree that we need a god to justify our exsitance. I do have a question for you. Which God are we suppose to believe in to make all that mankind does mean something? Which God will tell us what is right and wrong?
Mankind has worshipped many gods and in every religion there was Faith in that god that was worshiped. So were they all wrong except the christions? If your answer is yes then prove to me and those on this board that one religion is any more right than another. I'll bet that you will not be able to do this.

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Ballack,
I really want to talk to you in detail. It is an honor to meet someone who has actually had this experience. So basically, you believe in life after death but no God?

What makes you so sure that life continues? What if it was all just random chemicals in the brain, and you just thought you saw yourself? What convinces you???

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Antibody, how old are you and do you have a PHD? What do you do for a living? What do you think about Bellack saying no God but there is an afterlife? Why must there be no afterlife?

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Antibody, how old are you and do you have a PHD? What do you do for a living?

I am 29 and am 2 months away from a PhD in neuroscience. i also have a BSc-equivalent in biochemistry (earned abroad) and a MSc in molecular and cell biology. i admit i am sometimes not too patient, when somebody challenges the very basics of my trade. to me, it is kind of like someone saying: "no, the earth is a disc!". what to do?
how old are you and what is your background?

What do you think about Bellack saying no God but there is an afterlife? Why must there be no afterlife?

while i personally don't think there is an afterlife, and i DO think that there are perfectly neurological explanations for NDEs, including or independent of OBEs (out-of-body-experiences), i will not go so far as to declare an after-life impossible. just extremely unlikely. As an opener, i can simply follow occam's razor (the simplest explanation that takes into account ALL observations, is likely the right one). And, perhaps you will agree, a cosmos without afterlife is far simpler to explain than one with afterlife.

i would also like to say that while i do not shy away from confrontation, i do prefer a more rational environment for discussion. in that, i acknowledge your helping establish that, stanley.

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you did get one thing wrong

the soul doesn't live in the brain.

it lives in the heart

Where is your proof on this? If the soul exist then the most logical place for it to exist is the brain not the blood pump of the body.

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occam's razor

What? Can you explain this theory? The simplest explanation is the right one? Certainly this doesn't always apply? Someone might say the reason a bug flies is because little buggy buggy flaps its wittle wingses, when really, a little more detailed but still very simplistic answer is cellular energy conversion in the wing muscles moderated by neurologic impulses causes motion in the wings. Said motion in the wings produce lift in accordance with fluid dynamics and due to the wing shape and speed through the air that is enough to couteract the force of gravity. Thus with lift on the insect being greater than force of gravity on said insect, the insect "flies" which is to say it heads actually away from the center of the earth through the air.

i would also like to say that while i do not shy away from confrontation, i do prefer a more rational environment for discussion. in that, i acknowledge your helping establish that, stanley.

Was this a compliemnt or are you joking? I will try to be more objective from now on. Bellack's post really got me thinking. I am indeed not so sure in God anymore, and I do acknowledge that perhaps life can form from a soup of biological molecules. I am still very much convinced of an afterlife after really trying to look as ojectively as possible at near death experiences. Of course, I also believe the Bible is the book of lies.

I am 26 and a junior officer in the Coast Guard. Graduated high school in 2000 and from the Coast Guard Academy in 2004.

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occam's razor

for a more exhaustive explanation, please go here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

The simplest explanation is the right one?

it is key that it incorporates and explains ALL known information/effects. if a theory can do that, it is likely to be true. there is a similar quote from Einstein:
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler".
-Albert Einstein

Certainly this doesn't always apply?

if the data is sufficient, it does. you could argue philosophically, that we can never know if the data is sufficient. this is true. however, we cannot wait forever to make a decision. occam's razor is a tool to facilitate decision-making based on the data available.

Was this a compliemnt or are you joking?

a compliment, actually. since i apply a healthy dose of sarcasm, i run the risk that a serious comment will sometimes be interpreted as more sarcasm. this was sincere.

I am 26 and a junior officer in the Coast Guard

a tough job, i imagine. like a soldier, lots of downtime and then minutes of danger and adrenaline? certainly an important contribution to society.

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a tough job, i imagine. like a soldier, lots of downtime and then minutes of danger and adrenaline? certainly an important contribution to society.

Not really. I sit behind the computer e-mailing and do lots of boring office crap and talk on this forum when the boss isn't looking. Last tour I was a deck watch officer on a buoy tender. A little more exciting.

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Please, someone prove that the bible is true!
Or that god does exist! (I've asked this before, but it went COMPLETELY ignored)

The bible does have true events in it, but that doesn't mean that everything in it is true! I would regard it has historical fiction!

But a load of people went and started a beleif out of it!
I might as well believe that I was sneezed out of an enourmous being and that I am living on his/her shirt (I don't even want to know where!). The end of the world in my "bible" would be when my god finally goes to the dry cleaners to get his/her shirt washed! There is a true "cleansing" of the earth!

(I'm probably going to get shot down for writing all that stuff)
take aim, fire at will!

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But a load of people went and started a beleif out of it!
I might as well believe that I was sneezed out of an enourmous being and that I am living on his/her shirt (I don't even want to know where!). The end of the world in my "bible" would be when my god finally goes to the dry cleaners to get his/her shirt washed! There is a true "cleansing" of the earth!

actually life is a shared dream. if it happens to take place on some guys shirt so be it.

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Not really. I sit behind the computer e-mailing and do lots of boring office crap

ah, administration... thankfully, i don't have to do too much of that, though it seems no job can do without at least some files& forms.

my favourite civ4 quote:
"The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy" -unknown

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Nope. The Bible does not reference itself. There is no way it could...

The Bible is compiled of several books written in several different time periods and by several different writers. This is why some folks reference the Bible as an alternate source to itself. If there were a battle, and we knew about the battle because of the journal of a soldier and the journal of a general, we would not say it's false just because these two journals appeared in a later book together.

Also, I gave you a secondary source other than the Bible. Josephus does not appear in the Bible, but he is contemporary with Jesus.

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and the Gospels were written within the living memory of Jesus. Living memory is that time extending to when everyone who has known people who knew of a person or even have died

actually, the gospel of john was written 90-120AD. the bible canon was assembled in the 4th century AD (council of nicea, 325AD). Please also see my earlier posts.

That's what I said. 90-120AD is still within living memory.

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Philosophy is not a single organism that can "move away". There are different branches of philosophy, true. Even Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas Aquinas came from slightly differing branches. Philosophy is the pursuit of truth, using pure logic, because the senses can be fooled. It has a similar purpose to science but with an almost opposite tactic. Science recognizes the fallacies of the mind and so uses observation via the senses to record and test.

My point being, there are those who will hold forth a belief and call it "philosophy". However, these modernist so-called philosophies are not using these beliefs to pursue truth. Rather, they are using them to confound and confuse. As soon as one says "there are absolutely no absolutes", well, the contradiction is obvious.

I have a standing challenge for anyone who says there is no absolute truth. Close your eyes and walk out onto a busy freeway. Prove that you believe your own philosophy. If there are no absolute truths, you will not absolutely be struck by a car. Rather, you might turn into a butterfly.

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my favourite civ4 quote:
"The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy" -unknown

My favorite is "You would make a ship sail against the wind and current by lighting a bon fire under her deck?" "I have no time for such nonsense" Napolean - the Steam Engine.

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my favourite civ4 quote:
"The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy" -unknown

What tech is this by the way? I don't remember this one. (maybe I never researched it in my games)

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there is no way that the universe could have had a beginning or will have an end. because of the fact that if the universe had an edge then something would have to reside beyond that edge, then you have to ask ,what is beyond that objects edge and so on.

the universe did have a beginning and it will have a ending the universe is 12b years old up to now. when it comes to god i dont know. Pmutzu i have to say this you know f==k all when it comes to space so go and get a life before you say shit like this.

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That's what I said. 90-120AD is still within living memory.

what i meant to say is that all "disciples" who know jesus personally were dead before the gospel of john was written.

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