Why PC Gaming is Dying

CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

quad-cores are next to useless for most gaming

So is having a mid to high end 8 series video card. Are we playing GalCiv 2 or Crysis?

Let's compare a GeForce 8600 GT (available for some Dell Inspirons) to the Xbox 360:

GPU clock:
Xbox 360: 500 MHz
GeForce 8600: 540 MHz

GPU memory:
Xbox 360: 10 MB (Is this really supposed to play games??)
GeForce 8600: 256 MB

Regular memory:
Xbox 360: 512 MB
PC from Dell: 2 GB
. . . although I should note that the PC uses a larger OS, which offsets some of that.

Shader pipelines:
Xbox 360: 48
GeForce 8600: 32
Okay, a bit more in the shader side, but not gonna really kill performance.

With a 1450 MHz shader clock on the 8600, that's about 46 billion shader operations per second for the PC, and the 360 claims 48 billion, so they're pretty close.

So for a bit higher price for the video card, you can get a lower end Dell PC with about the same power as the 360.

If you push closer to the $1000 range, their XPS 420s can be outfitted with 8800 GTs, which will easily beat the Xbox 360.

Granted, both systems probably cost a bit more than a basic just-the-xbox, but you are getting a system that can do more than just play games.

Any gamer worth his salt will tell you that for $130, a 9600GT is the best deal out there budget-wise

Which is precisely why I recently upgraded to one

. It is, however, overkill for most games, save for some of the newest DirectX 10 ones. DirectX 10 support is the primary reason I bought it.

and as far as I'm concerned if you want it prebuilt go take the parts to a shop.

Ah, so there are options for the average joe that doesn't want to build his own system, but wants one built for gaming. In fact, I know of a few shops in town that will gather parts for and build systems for customers. Don't tell Alfonse, he might throw a fit.

Not to mention it's probably not that difficult to find a local computer geek to help you build a computer either - I'm pretty willing to build a computer system for neighbors and family, or install a component for them.

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Granted, both systems probably cost a bit more than a basic just-the-xbox, but you are getting a system that can do more than just play games.

I'm not convinced that comparing hardware specs between platforms is all that meaningful for that same reason.

All the X-Box was designed to do is play games, and all the hardware and software are designed solely to that end. Plus, console developers know exactly what hardware they have to code for.

Graphical capability is a result of more than just raw clock speed and memory these days; both the architecture of the hardware and programming play a big part as well.

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

I'm not convinced that comparing hardware specs between platforms is all that meaningful for that same reason.

All the X-Box was designed to do is play games, and all the hardware and software are designed solely to that end. Plus, console developers know exactly what hardware they have to code for.

Graphical capability is a result of more than just raw clock speed and memory these days; both the architecture of the hardware and programming play a big part as well.

True, although the stability is a weakness as well as a strength: Sure, you have a good idea what your target platform is, but on the other hand the unchanging nature of the platform means that it won't be keeping up with technology or new competition.

In addition, despite not being "specialized" for games, PCs are every bit as capable of playing them. The specialization only gives a slight advantage for a year or so before general purpose computers are doing the same thing.

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This elitist attitude does more to drive away users than I think you all realize, and is the biggest reason why I hope PC gaming dies -

Hey, at least we have pride in ourselves.

(Insert Console Gamer Slobs Here)

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I think the thing that bothers me most about this thread is the ennui being exhibited by 'teh hard kore gamz0rs' who think that if you don't know how to build a computer, from scratch, in less than sixty seconds with your penis tied behind your back, you don't deserve to be a gamer.

It's more like you don't deserve to complain about PC gaming. As I said before, PC gaming requires knowledge and dedication that isn't required of consoles; just maintaining your PC is a hobby in itself.

CobraA1
It probably would've struggled with the new DirectX 10 games, but it could certainly play all of the DirectX 9 games I threw at it.

Most of the recent cards now are having trouble with DX10. I sincerely doubt the 8300 would have been able to do anything other than a few Aero tricks.

CobraA1
In any case, Dell offers higher end cards as options when customizing. The 8600 is also an option, as well as a couple ATI cards. Sounds like their systems are a lot more flexible than you claim they are.

Having purchased a Dell computer in my time, I can tell you that they are NOT flexible. Most systems you buy will give you a choice between two or three video cards, one of them usually being a low- or mid-tier card. And since their cards are OEM, they tend to cheap out on many of the parts. For example, the card that originally came with my Dell was a X300...except that their version was the cheap-o version with the smaller memory interface. The only other option I had at the time was for an X800 card, which, had I got it, would have cost me some $300 more but would have been far inferior to the X800XL card I upgraded my PC with.

Believe me, I know from experience: if you want a good gaming machine that doesn't cost you a lot of money and allows for lots of flexibility in upgrades, buy a custom built PC; DO NOT buy a manufactured one!

Carbon016
Generations mean zip-zero as far as performance. Some of the 7s and 6s beat the midrange 8s. They're relative to each other, not other generations.

Dell systems use proprietary motherboards, proprietary CPU coolers, proprietary PSUs, and proprietary cases. The offerings of 8600s and quad-cores are a pretty good way to bilk people with no hardware knowledge out of their money, quad-cores are next to useless for most gaming and the 8600 is a budget card now. Any gamer worth his salt will tell you that for $130, a 9600GT is the best deal out there budget-wise, but it's not profitable for Dell to put those in there unless you pay $1500. They are one step above Macs as far as upgrading and as far as I'm concerned if you want it prebuilt go take the parts to a shop.

QFT.

Mad Cat

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CobraA1
Let's compare a GeForce 8600 GT (available for some Dell Inspirons) to the Xbox 360:

Ok, let me stop you here. This is a pointless exercise. Comparing how the two stack up against each other on paper may seem nice, but in PRACTICE, the 8600 will never give you the performance you need to compete with a console. End of.

CobraA1
Not to mention it's probably not that difficult to find a local computer geek to help you build a computer either - I'm pretty willing to build a computer system for neighbors and family, or install a component for them.

I'd be very reticent doing this. As I said before, you HAVE to maintain your PC, especially if you want to use it for gaming. Anyone who comes to you to build them a computer will ultimately put you on their Tech Support list.

Mad Cat

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Sure, you have a good idea what your target platform is, but on the other hand the unchanging nature of the platform means that it won't be keeping up with technology or new competition. In addition, despite not being "specialized" for games, PCs are every bit as capable of playing them. The specialization only gives a slight advantage for a year or so before general purpose computers are doing the same thing.

Yeah, I know my current budget PC could eat the PS2 for breakfast. My next PC, in a few years, will probably do the same for the current next gen consoles.

If I were going to get a console I'd probably get the WII; I'm much more interested in it's alternative approach to gaming than I am with the other consoles' horsepower and shiny paint jobs.

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

Most of the recent cards now are having trouble with DX10.

With Crysis, yes, but I don't think the DirectX 10 cards are having as much troubles with BioShock or other DirectX 10 games - Crysis was essentially designed to push DirectX 10 to its limits. Other games should work better.

As I said before, you HAVE to maintain your PC, especially if you want to use it for gaming.

Not very often. Every few months worst case, every few years best case. I do happen to value stability, I don't choose hardware that crashes, and I choose hardware that will last me a while.

Anyone who comes to you to build them a computer will ultimately put you on their Tech Support list.

Despite my attempts to compare OEM computers to the consoles, they are actually generally pretty bad. My parents were getting slowdowns and crashes all the time with an OEM computer. I'll give you that.

My parents have suffered a lot of crashy OEM computers in the past (Compaq, 'nuff said), so I built my parents' computer with a configuration I know doesn't crash so I could avoid the tech support. Haven't heard much since.

but in PRACTICE, the 8600 will never give you the performance you need to compete with a console.

I haven't used the 8600 myself, but I know that every video card I've touched recently uses antialiasing on all resolutions, while every console I've touched will not do antialiasing at any resolution. The effects on the 360 are very good, but nothing I haven't seen on a PC. Maybe my new 9600 spoils me, maybe I'm not looking for the right things, I don't know, but I'm not impressed at all with the latest generation of consoles.

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CobraA1
With Crysis, yes, but I don't think the DirectX 10 cards are having as much troubles with BioShock or other DirectX 10 games - Crysis was essentially designed to push DirectX 10 to its limits. Other games should work better.

As far as I know, BioShock et al are all DirectX 9.0c games, NOT DirectX 10. Even Age of Conan currently only supports DX9.

CobraA1
Not very often. Every few months worst case, every few years best case. I do happen to value stability, I don't choose hardware that crashes, and I choose hardware that will last me a while.

By maintenance I meant mainly software maintenance, like updating your OS and drivers, doing malware checks, ensuring your registry isn't loaded with garbage, defragmenting your harddrive, the kind of stuff most average users are absolutely clueless about. The most you'd have to do with hardware maintenance is clean the dust out of the hardware about once a year. I'd wager that the vast majority of crashes happen because of a lack of software / OS maintenance by the user and not because of hardware issues.

Mad Cat

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Pcs have almost always had better hardware then other systems... the problem ISNT with the hardware its with the OS.

Lets drop the memory and performence decreases from the OS directly and move onto something more important.

In the days of DOS
Newly designed hardware HAD to be designed to work with the programs already around... companies couldnt bring OUT something new without supporting the old in the device.

Lets take a brandnew SVGA videocard.. to run in SVGA resoloutions it had to run in VESA mode.. a new agreed upon standard(by most) for videocards.
However if a old ega game wanted to run it had in its bios the required data to do that.

The data and mode switching path
To Run the game the data from the game request follows
Game-dos-Videocard-game
or it can be.
game-videocard-game

In say windows you want to run the SAME thing.
OS-Game-OS-Drivers-Videocard-Drivers-OS-Game

To explain it.
Think of DOs as a Person.
To meet the person Graphics card and find if he can run in ega mode... you dont know where he lives so you ask dos.. dos tells you where he lives and sends you on your way and with the message if you have any trouble talking to graphics card come back and he will try to sort something out. You goto Videocard and ask him, and while he is a bit miffed your not using his better abilities he is still happy to help.

IN windows
You have to ask windows where videocard lives, ask permission to talk to videocard, get turned down because only windows and videocard drivers are allowed to do that so you ask windows if you can talk to videocard drivers directly, windows tells you sure, but only while he is around watching..
So you meet up with Videocard Drivers with Windows there too constantly interupting your conversation while you ask Videocard drivers if Videocard can run in EGA mode, Videocard drivers asks videocard and videocard tells videocard drivers that infact it cant, but videocard drvier tells you that it can actually trick videocard and make it do it anyways, but that you need to ask if its alright with windows, so you ask windows and he says yes but only if it still allows videocard to run as he currently is at the same time...

So Videocard drivers lie to videocard and to windows and pretend to support both modes at the exact same time, and as long as videocard drivers doesnt make any mistakes while he has ALOT of paperwork to do to trick both videocard and windows and you will get slow responses from him.. the fraud should go undetected.

Many bugs in PC games come about as direct result of drivers and os incompatabilities
There are SO many drivers around that its impossible for any company to even TEST that there product works on even a 5% base of the possible combinations.

What needs to happen is for the Drivers to be put back in the bloody hardware on PCS

Quite a few PC game houses have gone bankrupt.. not from poorly selling games but by techsupport costs brought on by bugs caused not by there software directly but bugs there software FOUND in drivers for hardware.

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

Sorry to disappoint, but BioShock supports DirectX 10 if you have it, and it's not alone. Most new shooters are in fact taking advantage of DirectX 10 when it's available.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX_10_support
http://www.novatek.com.au/news/confirmed-dx-10-games.html

"Minimum" and "recommended" requirements are just an indication of what machines it will run well on, not necessarily an indication of whether or not it takes advantage of DirectX 10.

Generally first person shooters jump on technology before other game styles do.

I'm not at all surprised that AoC hasn't jumped on yet - MMORPGs tend to lag because of the huge worlds and large numbers of objects they have to render, which means pushing a card to its limit isn't a good idea for a MMORPG.

By maintenance I meant mainly software maintenance, like updating your OS and drivers, doing malware checks, ensuring your registry isn't loaded with garbage, defragmenting your harddrive, the kind of stuff most average users are absolutely clueless about.

Oh, those? Automated. They run while I'm at work. Same with my parents' computer.

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Oh, those? Automated. They run while I'm at work. Same with my parents' computer.

You can automate updates of ATi drivers on XP or Vista?

Mad Cat

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

Dunno. I use nVidia.

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You are one seriously lazy shit if you pick a console over a PC because you might have to update a video card driver to play a new game. That's a brain dead simple operation that any idiot can do. I can understand the fear of learning the more difficult stuff, but anyone that wont do such simple maintenance is just lazy.

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

. . . and I only update video drivers only once a month or two anyways ([sarcasm] Five minutes every two months, boy, that's really painful [/sarcasm]), and since my parents don't play games, their video card drivers haven't been updated since the day I installed them.

. . . and even for myself, the current drivers are totally stable and fast and I really don't need to upgrade them anymore anyways. These days I mostly do it because I feel like it, not because I really need to.

. . . and being a programmer, yes, actually, I could automate it.

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You are one seriously lazy shit if you pick a console over a PC because you might have to update a video card driver to play a new game. That's a brain dead simple operation that any idiot can do. I can understand the fear of learning the more difficult stuff, but anyone that wont do such simple maintenance is just lazy.

you id be suprised how thick headed some people are

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You are one seriously lazy shit if you pick a console over a PC because you might have to update a video card driver to play a new game. That's a brain dead simple operation that any idiot can do. I can understand the fear of learning the more difficult stuff, but anyone that wont do such simple maintenance is just lazy.

My estimate would be that the VAST majority of PC users haven't got a clue these drivers exist, let alone know they should update them every once in a while, let alone know how to update them.

Mad Cat

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

My estimate would be that the VAST majority of PC users haven't got a clue these drivers exist, let alone know they should update them every once in a while, let alone know how to update them.

. . . and guess what? Most people will do fine with the generic drivers, and really don't need to be constantly updating them. Only the serious gamer trying to squeeze the last bit of performance of out his system is going to care about getting the latest drivers from the video card manufacturer.

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Zydor

Join Date 03/2006

+38

Most people will do fine with the generic drivers, and really don't need to be constantly updating them. Only the serious gamer trying to squeeze the last bit of performance of out his system is going to care about getting the latest drivers from the video card manufacturer.

Mostly true - however individuals should be aware of the need to do so from time to time. Design teams will often use "features" only available in latest drivers. Whilst by in large they will still default to a lesser effective feature in a driver set, hassles with a game should still be looked at from a Driver angle at any early stage of fault diagnostic.

Its hardly rocket science to update a driver. The problem tends to be people will not ask for help - or are just plain lazy. Its astonishing how many times ego gets in the way. More fool them frankly.

Regards
Zy

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You are one seriously lazy shit if you pick a console over a PC because you might have to update a video card driver to play a new game. That's a brain dead simple operation that any idiot can do. I can understand the fear of learning the more difficult stuff, but anyone that wont do such simple maintenance is just lazy.

It's not just always upgrading drivers, sometimes it's upgrading hardware or other things that get in the way. It's not just time, which is worth a fair deal, but also money. I've never heard anyone switch to consoles for update reasons, but it hurts to buy new hardware so you can play a game as opposed to playing it on a >$500 platform that you don't have to upgrade the hardware of.

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Zydor

Join Date 03/2006

+38

I've never heard anyone switch to consoles for update reasons, but it hurts to buy new hardware so you can play a game as opposed to playing it on a >$500 platform that you don't have to upgrade the hardware of.

Its the old story - they are different sections of the market place. People are in (whatever) sector for different reasons, its why the age old pointless console V pc shouting will rumble on for ever and never be resolved. It compares chalk and cheese. At the end of the day, who cares? As long as the user is happy with where they are, whichever sector they are in, thats great.

Life's too short ...

Regards
Zy

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I'm a PC gamer, mind you, and I'm getting to the point where I'm gaming increasingly on console. I'm happy with either, but it'd be darn nice if computers cost a sane amount compared to consoles. Without increasing console prices.

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They do, they're absurdly cheap by comparison.

The budget PC is no longer a monster that eats small children, you can spend under a grand and get a very nice box these days. Consoles on the other hand aren't particularly useful aside from the gaming aspect and have almost doubled in price in the last ten years instead of halved. You don't actually need the $400 video card, you just need one to play the very few games that are all graphics and no content and should be skipped anyway.

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True, but the problem is that laptops and whatnot do cost a lot.

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CobraA1
. . . and guess what? Most people will do fine with the generic drivers, and really don't need to be constantly updating them. Only the serious gamer trying to squeeze the last bit of performance of out his system is going to care about getting the latest drivers from the video card manufacturer.

Until they run into a bug that makes the game practically unplayable. Then the tech support people start banging their heads against their desk when the player says "What drivers? I'm just playing on the computer not with my car!"

Erathoniel
True, but the problem is that laptops and whatnot do cost a lot.

But, as we just got through explaining, laptops are NOT gaming machines, and thus, their cost is completely irrelevant and superfluous to the discussion. You might as well have pointed out, "But gas prices are above $100 a barrel".

Mad Cat

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Why PC Gaming is Dying

And How To Save It