Back to OP's question ...

The war cost is only a fraction of US GDP - for fiscal year 2009 US GDP will be either side of $14,000 Billion, the Iraq Budget 2009 is $200 Billion. Even US National debt is "only" $9,000 Billion - equates to a private citizen whose all up total debt is 7 months of their annual wage. The US has a massive economy, Iraq in fiscal terms is a mild draw down, bit like a car going over a speed bump, hardly notice it. Even set against US government spending 2009, $2,600 Billion, the war cost only equates to 4 weeks spending a year by Federal government. Its a barrel load of dollars - that for sure - but in the overall scheme of things the war cost is a pinprick when set against National GDP.

The US influence will eventually decline, all empires/spheres of influence do in the end. There is no doubt China will be the next global power, probably in circa 100 years from now. Probably end up with three Global Superpowers, China being dominent. My money is on India when China declines circa 300 years from now. The dominant power has always been the country will access to the strategic resources required for the time in question. China's untapped natural resources dwarf even Russia's.

Regards
Zy

*Looks at Drathkars reply and shakes his head* sad.. well sad... I would continue this debate but it's utter pointless, you have no wish to hear facts and you have no wish to listen.

Now, on to the OP's question.

Many people refuse to understand that over ninety percent of the world relies heavily on our money and in some case's our military (Japan)

What that basically means, is that if the US does fall the world WILL feel it. War's will start for control over the remains of the nation which will lead to further death.

But out of the rumbles of one empire, another will rise.

Perhaps DrathKar is touching on something that many people do feel.
Not presuming to speak or shape his words, but America has at times behaved in a way that is counter to the ideals it proudly talks of.

However. On the same point, Australia one could say treats illegal immigrants in a way that is disgusting to many, and the basis of Australia as a nation is one of the wholesale death and mistreatment of native peoples. Going to the post Colonial age, we can look at the Australian governments actions in removing aboriginal children from their parents and sending them to live with white Families. Or even look at how some groups in Australia treated Eddie Mabo when He was fighting for the rights of his peoples island ( Murray Island ). After Eddie Mabo died, people desecrated his grave with 8 Swastikas and the word "Abo", forcing his family to move him to the Island.

In the end, no nation is free from shameful acts. My own nation of UK certainly has a history of disgusting behaviour,( Some of Australias shame is in fact ours ) and I look forward to the day when my people are free from it. The Actions of Israel are questionable, and I find the behaviour of some Arab groups as absolutely repulsive. Just as I don't like what is happening in Darfur or Burma.
America, no matter if we like it or not, is important. For me, I find them too religious, I don't like how their films change history, or how they proudly talk of being the greatest nation on earth. Yet, this is secondary to the fact that every American I have met is polite, friendly, and has a genuine interest in the history and sights of foreign countries. Never have I met an American that I don't like, and who doesn't want to help you if you're in need, they don't seem to suffer from the same Jaded view of life that the rest of the world seems to have.
So, no nation is "pure", and to only focus on the bad side of a people says more about the individual seeing that, than it does about the people.

And Finally.
It is America that gave us Galactic Civilisations.... the very reason that we are all here discussing this.

Totally awesome. Best post on the friggin board.

CobraA1 you have a funny form of logic.

because if something happens consistantly and repeatedly its logical to assume its going to happen again.

Fact USA has been involved in conflict outside its borders every year since WW2 ended.
Fact USA actions have resulted in deaths of Innocent people/non combatants(whatever you want to call them) Every Year since ww2

Now lets look at the first gulf war.

Kuwit was stealing Iraq Oil by slant drilling across Iraq borders and into Iraq oilreserves..

Suddam asked the US ambassador if it was alright if he attacked Kuait.

The Response was that she could understand how He would want to protect his borders(Kuwait had also attacked iraq on a number of occasions)

Suddam attacks Kuwait and is far more successful then the USA thought he could be(kuwait fell totaly and would become part of Iraq).
USA has no problem with the middle east killing each other.. just with any side being successful.

USA goes to the UN and asks them to invade iraq.

They refuse on the grounds that Iraqs Attack agasint Kuwait was justified and the looting being carried out isnt sufficent grounds.

USA goes and hires a private PR firm to make up a humans rights abuse story.
The Result is a 15 year old girl gets up infront of the UN and lies

The UN decides on this new Testimony to goto war with IRAQ.

As soon as Suddam learns there is a problem with his Invasion of Kuwait he happens to PULL OUT.
The majority of Iraq soldiers killed wernt killed in action with Kuwait or UN forces, they were slaughtered while they were withdrawing.. and lets be honest.. it was murder.

The USA LIED to the UN
IT also told Suddam it had no problem with him taking miliary action agasint Kuwait.


The USA also droped phamlets urging the iraq people to rise up.
(its important to point out that suddam was known to torture and kill the familes of any resisters to his rule)

Once the majority of Iraqs military was destroyed US and UN Pulled out, Suddams response agasint these people who rebelled agasint him was predictable, and hundreds of thousands are estimated to have been killed because they belived the USA and did indeed rise up only to be left in the lurch.

One of the strongest sorce of local personal in IRAQ currently for anti US factions happens to be the suvivors and surviving families.

They see the USA as Evil... do tell me.. are they wrong?

Now PLEASE point out at WHICH point the USA acted with honor and within International Laws and with the best intrest of IRAQ or the Kuwait peoples.(hell they put suddam in power)

TO add insult to injury the Public Inquiry into both the green light given to Suddam to invade and the Paying of a PR firm and the presenting of false information to the UN was found that NO one had done anything fundermentaly wrong and that no criminal charges should be laid.

Now pick whatever conflict the US has been involved in Since world war 2 and I will present you with the same kind of actions.


Then people use as there defence.. that THATS just what countries do and every country is corrupt and its just cause the USA is so big that everyone looks at its actions more then other countries.

Well bugger me? does that make it right.. its like going into a prison of murderers and saying since everyone here is a murderer obviously its OK.
How about we let them all go?

Inhuman acts are INHUMAN acts
MURDER IS MURDER
Anyone who supports Murder are disgusting inhuman animals.


Cut it which way you want, claim everyone does it, claim its normal.
the US govement has been allowed and is continualy allowed by each generation of its people to commit acts that are downright foul and immoral.

Ok let’s get a few things straightened out here.
Q: Did The United States Nuke Japan?
A: Yes!

Q: Was the motive to kill as many Japanese as possible?
A: No, it was to save as many people as possible on both sides, It was estimated that it would cost about two to four million lives on both sides if The United States launched an invasion into Japan. Not counting the destruction of the remaining infrastructure. So, it was decided that by dropping the bomb the Japanese government would see the futility in fighting and surrender. We dropped the first one and when the response was “You faked it, you can’t do it again” (I am, of course, just using short quick conceptual speak with this not the verbatim nor paraphrased response).

We told them again, where and when (Like we did the first time) they then got the message and The Emperor surrendered rather then see all of Japan destroyed. So when The United States dropped the bomb on Japan it was to reduce casualties and destruction.


Q: Did we bomb civilian targets in Europe in WW2?
A: Yes we did, Dresden was the biggest but not the only one, it was done in order to disrupt the German’s ability to provide skilled labor in its factories. After the war, the United States did a study to see what the actual effect of this type of warfare had on war production. The conclusion was that it was a failure and should not be done in the future.

Q: Did the United States lend money to Europe and Japan after the war and if so when was it repaid?
A: When was this money repaid? It has yet to be repaid, in fact we have not attempted to collect it, nor did we ever intend to. The only country that actually did repay the United States was Germany!

How it worked
The Organization for European Economic Cooperation took the leading role in allocating funds, and the ECA arranged for the transfer of the goods. The American supplier was paid in dollars, which were credited against the appropriate European Recovery Program funds. The European recipient, however, was not given the goods as a gift, but had to pay for them (though not necessarily at once, on credit etc.) in local currency, which was then deposited by the government in a counterpart fund. This money, in turn, could be used by the ERP countries for further investment projects.

Most of the participating ERP governments were aware from the beginning that they would never have to return the counterpart fund money to the U.S.; it was eventually absorbed into their national budgets and "disappeared." Originally the total American aid to Germany (in contrast to grants given to other countries in Europe) had to be repaid. But under the London debts agreement of 1953, the repayable amount was reduced to about $1 billion. Aid granted after 1 July 1951 amounted to around $270 million, of which Germany had to repay $16.9 million to the Washington Export-Import Bank. In reality, Germany did not know until 1953 exactly how much money it would have to pay back to the U.S., and insisted that money was given out only in the form of interest-bearing loans — a revolving system ensuring the funds would grow rather than shrink. A lending bank was charged with overseeing the program. European Recovery Program loans were mostly used to support small- and medium-sized businesses. Germany paid the U.S. back in installments (the last check was handed over in June 1971). However, the money was not paid from the ERP fund, but from the central government budget.

Quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan#Repayment
Additional information can be found here http://www.marshallfoundation.org/

About the U.S. and Israel and human rights issues, (The Jewish State):

The current situation in the Middle East can be traced back to Mohammad Amin al-Husayni and his support of the Nazi party. The modern Islamic Terrorist groups can trace their roots directly to Hitler’s Nazi party in the 30's. Mohammad Amin al-Husayni spent the war in Berlin and in 48 with the help of escaped Nazis he brought back with him, declared war on Israel the day it was formed.

The sole objective of his movement is the extermination of Jews. He was a full blown Nazi and His movement was founded on fascism, anyone who supports him therefore is supporting the continued efforts of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi’s. so, if you are saying that his movement has merit, that he had the right idea, that he was correct in his assessment, the only thing you need to do is change his name from Mohammad Amin al-Husayni to Adolf Hitler and you will then be able to have a good look at what you are supporting.

Starting point for you to educate yourself about this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni


Q: Has the United States Ever overthrown a democratic government and installed a dictator?
A: Yes, That is one of the reasons the Iranians are so pissed at the United States. (Much to our shame, it is 100% correct that we were the bad guys on that one!)


And on one point I would like to make very clear. If anyone knows of someone who is defending the terrorist attack on September 11th 2001, I have a message for them; their real identity will be uncovered and that information will be given to the people who have fought those Nazi’s for a generation, They will be hunted like those who came before them and attempted to destroy the world sixty years ago. They and their kind were stopped then and will be stopped now.

The attack was a direct declaration of war on all mankind, the sole purpose of the act was to kill as many people as possible and gain publicity for a pro Nazi movement. The reason the attack was directed toward American targets was that New York is recognized as the preeminent center of international culture and the Pentagon as the preeminent center of military power in the world. The attack was not directed just at the USA, it was directed at all thinking people of the world who yearn for freedom, not just American style freedom. So anyone who attempts to justify the actions of those sub human, demon possessed creatures is a Nazi sympathizer and should be dealt with accordingly. (I kind of like the way the French and Polish resistance dealt with it back in 1945).

As for you Drathkar, Your only 18, at 18 your allowed to be an idiot about many things, that is why governments tend to make the bulk of their military young men, many of us are too ignorant to know to question certain things. (As example in WW2 the average age of the American solder was 28; in Viet Nam it was 18). Just pause for a sec and think about what you say and with whom your thoughts align. If you feel it is ok to share common views with Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Osama Bin Laden, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, George Bush or Khomeini, that is for you to decide, just make sure you check out what they really represent before you go around repeating like a parrot what you have heard. Remember Molotov said the Bolsheviks were a gang of thugs, he should know, he was in the beginning a one of them.

Also I find it interesting that you selected a screen name of a character who is an infamous Prince of Lies in the game Castlemarl and is a variant spelling of Draghkar; a fictional creature in the World of The Wheel of Time created by Robert Jordan.
I just wonder, are you really someone who is just having a fun time trolling this site and setting off people like me?

SpacePony
You might want to check your facts, including Wiki links, I would suggest you look at the list of wiki articles known to be edited by the US govement.

Funny how apparently since I dislike the USA I am actually a terrorist.


SpacePony
You may also WISH to check your facts on why the BOMBS were droped on Japan because your argument goes agasint both comments made by your own president Eisenhower and congress of the time.

But I guess you would know more then the people who were around and responsible for it back then.

japan had decided to uncondtional surrender 3 days before they were droped, this was the message delivered to Russia(who were the go between) and this was the message russia passed on.

I wasnt talking about bombing of cilvians in ww2, im talking about the international laws that were passed after world war 2 that would amke sure such things would never happen again.
Which the USA has consistantly broken.

I have never ONCE supported attacks agasint cilvians, but I am of the MIND do onto others as you would have done onto you.

Just like Europe cilvians in ww2 supported the war effort by decentrilied production the US population supports its Govement with money men and materials for there criminal acts(and criminal is the right word the UN has found them guilty over and over again)

My greatest wish is that both sides of this "terrorism" blow each other the hell up and the rest of humanity can get back developing a better world.

Also whats REALLY REALLY funny is, Nazis are about WHITE purity and it just so happens that well Most of the Middle east is of mixed decent.

So no matter what they may have inherited from Germany they are not infact nazis.

Whats funny of all, you go out of your way to claim that running planes into US buildings is unforgiveable.

But the loss of life in US led wars of innocent people is just part of war.

Lets ask some questions shall we.

Is the world a safer place for Americans and western civilization since the US led war on terror?

Intelligence offices around the world including the USA own departmens say its WORSE now more then ever.


Lets get down to the nit and gritty.

The USA claims a moral highground to kill and harm.
While doing this it breaks both international and internal laws.
It disregards national bodies and is willing to lie cheat and fake information to accheive its ends.
In the Kosovo conflict it intentionaly targeted cilvians
It allowed the Turky to use chemical weapons agasint Cilvian targets.
Not only does its govement lie to other countries but to its own people.
droping a 500lb laser guided bomb on an apartment building in the gaza strip to kill 1 "terrorist" and over 178 innocent people including over 40 children.

Accroding to you SpacePony this is acceptable..

Meanwhile flying planes into US buildings
Unacceptable
Using shells and chemicals supplied by the USA including the training agasint a cilvian population is unacceptable.
Fireing unguided rockets with low order explosives that are extremly inaccurate and have a extremly low mortality rate(1 out of every 100 rockets kills)
Is unacceptable.

There is a saying
"When fighting a monster becareful you dont become one."

Your view is disgusting and very American.

Correction: Japan had not decided to unconditionally surrender three days before the bombs were dropped by any means. The cabinet was split for a long while, fearing not the bombs but Russia's entry into the war.



While I agree with many of your posts, this one is fundamentally flawed. Militant Islamists do not operate in G.I. Joe land where their only motivation is being rockin' evil and blowing stuff up. September 11th was a direct result of our troops being on Arab soil (mostly Saudi Arabia) and our support of Israel. The Nazi-Arab connection you are attempting to make is tenuous at best - attempts to hide the motivations behind cartoony visions of the world as divided into Superman-esque USA GOOD GUYS and NAZI-RADICAL-ISLAM BAD GUYS is not useful or accurate.



And now we're getting into very dangerous territory. Are you advocating the assassination of people based on their beliefs about whether 9/11 was justified or not? Those who were chased down by the "Nazi-hunters" actively participated in the ethnic cleansing in Nazi Germany. There is quite a difference. Do I think the murder of thousands of innocent civilians is justified? Of course not. Do I think that the U.S. and the rest of the international community needed a wake-up call to the fact that its/their policies have led to the deaths of countless more, not only in the obvious places like Palestine but events the fundamental NATO bureaucratic clusterfuck that was the Bosnian War? You'd better damn well believe it. And if that means some misguided old guy's going to come shoot up my house with an AR-15 so be it .

You're welcome..




No one can. USA has refused to be a member of the International Criminal Court (ICC). Guess why?



You scare me. Really.



You seem to be an intelligent guy, so I'll give you 10 seconds to realise the real reason why Arab nationalist groups where aiding Germany during the WWII. Hint: Sid Meier created a game in 1994 called ............?

We're humans, we're meant to kill each other. If we werenn't we wouldn't be so good at it. Everyone, every goverment, and every nation has commited mistakes. If you deny that good for you. Your perfect. You should rule the world. Oh, wait, someone you know, are related to, or have befriended isn't perfect, oh damn, guess it's time for whoever they wronged to come and kill your family since YOU ARE AS RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS AS YOU ARE FOR YOUR GOVEREMENTS, ECT ECT. Well, see you in hell then friends.

so in 20 - 200 years even if we had superior technology how exactly do you plan on subjagating the Chinese? If I remember correctly the Russians proved quite well that if you throw enough bodies at somebody whether there more advanced than you or not that in the end it doesn't really matter. and can you imagine there population in another 20 years let alone 200? As of right now the US military has no sure way of dealing with them at this time, can't imagine if that would change in the next 20 to 200 years. If I remember correctly they now hold the largest standing army of any country and the industrialization to back it up.

Soviet technology was pretty much equal to German tech during Op Barbarossa. Germans just had twice the actual amount of equipment due to the fact that they had already been at war for several years. Also German army doctrine more closely related American tactics, armor supported by infanty while the soviets went infantry supported by armor (which was the basic doctrine used by all the nations during WW1). Also due to stalins purges the soviet army's officer corps was still trying to re-build and learn how to use the weapons while the Germans had exp. with their equipment and tactics. Also while Germany only really had to worry about Britain (who lost half in not most of their equipment at dunkirk) the soviets had to worry about the Germans AND Japan, so they were much more spread out with their units.

This allowed the Germans to get as far as they got. In fact, soviet tech was considered more advanced then germans after about 1 year into the war. You also need to consider the soviets were much more prepared for the terrain they were fighting in. For example, soviets used small pack mules for supply and logistics, germans used heavier horses. Of course the soviets did have a manpower advantage, not denying that, but it's not like they threw 10 billion cavemen at 10 guys with machineguns that only had 500 round each. Oh, and just because I'm sure someone will point this out, everything I'm talking about is GROUND FORCES. Numerical superiority is as false a myth as technological superiority. For every 10 things you can think of in a war there is 20 that you will not think of that will bite you in the ass. War is hell for a reason. If war was paradise we wouldn't be discussing this, the species would have destroyed itself a very very very long time ago.

And if your going to fight a war, fight to win it, otherwise just kill yourself and don't make others suffer.

Edit: I don't think the one guy is serious at all, he's just trying to start a flame war, if you carefully read his posts he's saying all americans need to die for whatever reason but nothing should happen to the rest of the world, like their all little saints who never did anything at all. I suppose thats why the world was just so peace loving and orgy filled until the 1700's.