Perceived ("newbie") balance vs. Actual ("pro") balance

innociv

Join Date 02/2008

+34

Perceived ("newbie") balance vs. Actual ("pro") balance

A lot of times you have players that don't understand how to play that complain about imbalances, even if the game is balanced.

This was a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE problem for Sins of a Solar Empire and the devs would listen to the whiners and ruin the game for people that actually knew how to play. (siege frigs lol :/) The devs didn't play at the level of the good players either.

I hate to use the word "pro", but it's easier than to keep saying "the top 5% of players".

What tends to happen is it's like, say you have chess.
One player knows how to play.
The other player, not so much, and it's like he can't understand what the other player is doing to win. It's like he only knows half the rules. He doesn't understand his Knight can jump over people. He doesn't know that his pawn and go two spaces forward if it's the pawns first move. He doesn't know his queen can not only move diagonally, but also horizontally and vertically.
The first player knows these things, and uses them to his advantage. The new player doesn't understand how he seems to have such an advantage and screams "IMBA!"

I hope if there is a problem for new players "not getting it" that instead of screwing up the game for the people that know how to play, they focus on making it so those new players can understand it so the two players are NOT playing two different games.
Ones of Sin's big probablems where the hidden armor types, damage types, and other hidden information.

demigod

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[quoteGreat way of starting there, calling someone an idiot is hardily constructive is it.[/quote]
You started with calling me whiney and then being sarcastic and condescending your whole post. =]

Just saying

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Sorry but that is absolute rubbish. There are plenty of examples of games that were designed to be "a strong competitive game" that have failed miserably. Fury, just for one off the top of my head.First and foremost a game must be fun. There ain't no money in selling a dozen copies of the game to the obsessives and everyone else running a mile to get away from it.

Which is what i've been trying to say.

The games needs to be geared for the competitive gamer for the gameplay, but easy for the new player to understand. Just like TF2..
It doesn't need to have 4 dozen hotkeys, a dozen menus, hidden game mechanics, so on. There shouldn't be many questions of "how do I.." but without needing a tutorial.
That was the whole point.

Sorry for double post.

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You know, I thought I would disagree with this post, but I like innociv's comparison to TF2--simple mechanics you can dive right into, difficulty in mastering said mechanics.

On the other hand, a bunch of classes lose some of their usefulness in high-level TF2 play, if I'm properly informed--let's try not to emulate that bit.

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[quoteGreat way of starting there, calling someone an idiot is hardily constructive is it.[/quote]You started with calling me whiney and then being sarcastic and condescending your whole post. =]Just saying

Yeah I did say sorry about that though and I explained myself. He didn't even bother to reply to my post, also I was pretty tactful if you it compare it to his post which was just an insult.

If Demigod is made to be a strong competitive game, it will gain the following it needs to be popular.Sorry but that is absolute rubbish.

Well I did say I agreed but I think I'm just trying to be optimistic about Demigod apparently part of the minority. Also wanted to avoid further insults from timmyfred.

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Competitive doesn't mean Nigh impossible. No game starts out competitive, but it can be designed to be competitive. The only reason that games like Starcraft and Counter Strike still exist as popular games is the competitive atmosphere. Invariably people will flock to those games as lesser skilled players to enjoy it, and thats where they maintain there community base.

Sins wasn't designed with Competitive spirit in mind and it's completely dead online. Most players who go into a game expecting to be in the top tier play it because of the competition, designing and listening primarily to their concerns is usually the best way to make a general balance and implement tweaks and changes from there.

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[quoteGreat way of starting there, calling someone an idiot is hardily constructive is it.[/quote]You started with calling me whiney...

And was he mistaken?

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Great way of starting there, calling someone an idiot is hardily constructive is it.

You started with calling me whiney...

And was he mistaken?

Well, not what you were asking, exactly, but I certainly wasn't.

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Yeah but still the whining is annoying.It's good for the game to be accessible. That means the new players know you win because you're simply good, and don't accuse you or using some exploit. A good sniper is good in TF2 because he has good aim and shoots people in the head, not because he knows there is some hidden mechanic in the game where if you shoot someone in the left leg you instantly kill them at a low charge level.And it makes the learning curve less harsh so people are less likely to quit.It's like, to me, DotA's item combinations are bad because it's senseless memorization that adds to the learning curve. There is no sense to have it, except to punish new players.

innociv you just helped me strengthen DroopytheDog's point.

What is bolded there, is the newbie's perspective (i don't mean that offensively). You think that item combinations just make the game harder, hence they should be removed.
(for those not familiar, items are consisted of ingredients -basic items- and recipes -items you buy to replace the ingredients with the item described in the recipe-)

But my perspective -4 years of dota- is that item combinations, help to make the hero-power vs hero-money-gain graph less "spikey" if you catch my drift. They make the progress smoother, hence not punishing heroes who gather money a bit slower as much as it could.
Nobody would buy item A, B and C if item D was a clear upgrade of the 3, even if it cost more than the 3 combined. What would they do with the other items after they bought D? They don't need A, B, C, they need to balance more aspects, gain secondary skills, or whatever.

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So? Make it so you can sell your old items back then.
Or make it so you can pay to upgrade the single item, not combine.

Also, if you ask me, there should be dimensioning returns, not the opposite.
In DotA, an item that costs twice as much is more like 150% better, not 100% better.(The items you combine become one item that is better than all the items combined for the same money)
An item that costs 100% more should be more like 75% better.

Snowballing effect = BAD.

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So? Make it so you can sell your old items back then.Or make it so you can pay to upgrade the single item, not combine.Also, if you ask me, there should be dimensioning returns, not the opposite.In DotA, an item that costs twice as much is more like 150% better, not 100% better.(The items you combine become one item that is better than all the items combined for the same money)An item that costs 100% more should be more like 75% better. Snowballing effect = BAD.

I'm quite sure the gold-back % can't be changed in the map editor. I can't find the exact source right now, but I remember reading a conversation about this. Can't confirm, I don't have it installed right now.

Even if that's available, should one be rewarded for choosing the wrong spec against the wrong enemy team?

If I remember correctly, the idea of item-recipes was just part of the learning curve for me, and logical too. Think about it, different items would take the same time, maybe a little bit less. We are talking 44 recipe-items (excluding the new shop), which I know by heart, 6 months after playing for the last time, and 1 year of pause before that resume, which lasted for 1 month. It can't be that hard.

Give me examples for your 2nd statement, diminishing returns for, eg, dagon level recipes and necronomicon level recipes are there, and I can't remember any recipe that boosts the item power to heavens. Maybe sange&yasha? I can't measure anything else than +skill, since everything else is abilities and +skill items cost increasingly more for what they give (+str + int +agi items, and basic upgrade recipe-items needing them)

Still, in most games, feeding the allie is out of the question in publics and bannable in privates, feeding the enemy is almost non-existant in privates but a bit more noticed in publics, so the increase you say wouldn't almost matter, it would just add peculiarity to the game, making it more extreme, at least to the deceived eyes of the average player, in which category I will have to submit myself if you prove that item stats % increases more than 100% for double the money.

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Yeah but it's a dumb learning curve.

Learning how to play a class involves playing it.

Learning what items you need for different combination's and where they are at involves sitting there, doing nothing but reading, while your team dies.

If you get void stone+ring of health the effect is far more than them alone, for no extra gold cost. Same if you do points booster+vitality booster+mana booster to make soul booster, the effec tis much higher than them together.
And then those two combine, and is even bigger effect, for the same money(they automatically combine, cost nothing). The bonuses are like 30% higher plus you get extra damage. And it's using up 1 item slot instead of 5.

Good players don't need an extra advantage (seeing as how they get more money as it is, they don't need access to getting items that are even better values for the money.)

But you're right, you shouldn't be able to trade in an item with no penalty(IE, no gold loss) because you decide to change your strategy.
Still, just having an "upgrade item" button or something, or a "blacksmith" that you go to upgrade them for a higher cost would be better, more intuitive, and requiring less learning than item combination's.

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Still, just having an "upgrade item" button or something, or a "blacksmith" that you go to upgrade them for a higher cost would be better, more intuitive, and requiring less learning than item combination's.

Ya I agree, sexy idea! /waves @ Demigod devs
As for Defense of the Ancients I don't think it's possible, just go check the forums, and see how many good ideas are getting turned down because "the map editor is not powerful enough" or "the engine does not support it"

Very sad. What gives some hope is that the latest patch notes (patch 1.22) of WC3, are clearly just for DotA! I found it amazing. I call it the DotA patch.

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It WOULD be possible to do that in DotA but it'd require THOUSANDS of lines for the triggers to do it for a few dozen items and it'd make the file size even larger than the currently (large for a wc3map map) 3.5mb.
I could think of some ways that it could be done, but it'd all require tedious coding each and every "upgrade"

A system where you had
"Stats:
+10 damage.
+30% attack speed.

Stats when upgraded:
+15 damage
+40% attack speed
10% chance to stun for .5seconds on attack
___ cost"
would be way more intuitive than having to get a +dmg item, +attack speed item, combining them, then a stun item and combining them, and having to figure out what shop every item is in, and so on.

Even if WC3 had a bigger list to have everything in one shop, it'd still be a huge list of items that are basically just there for combining.

I hate it so much.

Then you have a +3 str, +3 int, +agi, then +6 for them, then +10 for them. Could just be starting with the +3 and pay 115% more to "upgrade" and it becomes +6 or whatever. Way less clutter.

Demigod isn't going to have any stats AFAIK which is a good choice. They are useless.
Str for a str hero in dota is just like giving +20 +2 damage, +1 health regen.(not exact, but ballpark)
How is an item that gives +10 str any different than one that gives +200 life, +10 damage, +10 health regen? It's NOT. Which is silly, more clutter.
It DOES serve to make it where some items are better/worse for different heroes depending on whether they are a str/agi/int one.. but eh, I just find it cluttering and harshens the learning curve.

I don't think Demigod is going to have that from what i've heard.
Not to say it couldn't be improved by having some "upgrade" thing with things starting smaller, then it's like adding more items without adding more items and there is a smoother progression.

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Oh and to make it clear, because there was a lot of confusion in my earlier post, I was using Sin's as an example of what happens when you don't try to make the game intuitive and understandable.
The game appears so different to the new players than someone who has dug up all the information, so it appears imbalanced to them. That was the point I was trying to make. I wasn't saying to ignore newbies per se'(unless they say stupid things, of course).

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How is an item that gives +10 str any different than one that gives +200 life, +10 damage, +10 health regen? It's NOT.

Well +10 str gives 190 life and less regen

Seriously though, it is different, but only when a hero has an ability that depends on his current str/int/agi.

Damn we need to know more about Demigod!
And my damned pre-order didn't work, I'm waiting for an e-mail

PS: amazing how the smileys are messed up, instead of a unhappy "( : (" smiley, there should be ": (" as the unhappy (and not angry) and "> : (" for angry.

Continuing on the original post, -we've taken too much time off the subject-:
What I believe about balancing, is that one to be able to judge balancing needs to have mastered the game. End of Story.

This means, not only you have to go through the learning curve, but also push your limits to adapt to situations (or going through the REAL learning curve)

In DotA the real learning curve is huge, but there are no complaints from the newbies. Except for 1-2 heroes who are much easier to play decently than the rest(clinkz, anyone?).

Demigod is a more straight-forward game than Sins. So I don't believe that the learning curve will affect the balancing as much (I wouldn't know about Sins, I didn't buy it because I don't like the whole sci-fi spaceship pewpew idea, be it any genre except RPG) but people who really master the game by Beta2 will be the most reliable on correct feedback. (and dota pros ofcourse

)

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huh?..
No read my post again for that first bit. I know what i said isnt' exactly what primary attribute gives.

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Hey there Innociv... While I agree 100% with you regarding GPG needing to listen to the right people in order to get good game balance (ie: Blizzard listens to pros when doing game balance, works well for them IMO...) I would have to respectfully disagree with your take on DOTA items.

Dota items add alot of variety to the game. Does the enemy team have a lot of nukers/disablers? Make a BKB or a HotD to reduce their effectiveness. Does your team lack disables? make a Guinsoo sheep-stick... Does your chaser-type-hero have problems killing the enemy before they get away? Make a skadi...

You then can make tactical decisions such as whether to get BoT and add map-mobility to your arsenal or make a Treads to add more attack-speed/etc...

Also, items give an outlet for gold. You need gold to be useful to reward things like microing, last hitting creeps, denying your creeps, etc. It also gives you the dynamic that some heroes are better at certain STAGES of the game than others...So nukers would be better early on while farmers are better late-game...

Do I agree that items make the learning curve steeper? Yes...but IMO they add many times more to the game than they take away.

-Drexion

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Ehh?
I wasn't saying the ITEMS are bad..

Demigod IS going to have Items.

I was talking about how they work. DotA has tons of items and they just serve for cminbations and such.
Why do you need combines in order to have something like HotD or BoT?..

I wasn't even remotely suggesting to not have items!
I just said DotA's system for acquiring them is AWEFULLLL

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I can't tell if you are talking about noobs or idiots.

There's a huge difference : there are the people that are new to the game and want to learn it ( still noobs ) and the people that are new to the game, want to learn it but are complete idiots ( idiotic noobs ).

We are all newcomers to this game and for the first 2-3-50 matches, we'll be all noobs/naabs/newbies/newbees ( there are a lot of forms ).

And yet again, I must conclude that you are talking about idiots. It's normal for the devs not to listen to the idiots.

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newb != noob

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the talk of these veteran DoTa players is.....sickening to say the least
if how your talking is how ur gonna act when the game comes out then alot of new people who want to play this game will probably stick with single player or complain when they play, the easiest thing to do is just put a mute button so u dont have to listen to that 1 person and put another mute button that makes sure they cant read what u type if ur talking to everyone and dont want that 1 person alot to here or to be heard like what diablo 2 had,
and i think they shouldnt give admin's the kick in game option cause if they have it again alot of new ppl will get kicked out of the game for making a small mistake kinda like whats happening in warcraft 3 right now, also make sure theres no IP Ban from creators game that just makes things worse limiting the online play to a very ..very small majority of players

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the talk of these veteran DoTa players is.....sickening to say the least

Are you talking to me?

a n00b/noob is NOT a newbie. a noob is someone who does not give a crap about learning the game, but keeps whining about how hard it is constantly.
Don't give me wikipedia links because I will get annoyed. Go to any game's hardcore community and ask for the difference between noob and newbie.

eg. A noob is someone who will run up to a stronger hero, get killed, and then do it again for a second time right after that. (oh believe me i've seen it so many times)

If u annoy a wasp, and get stinged, do you do it again?

There is a perfectly simple explanation about the situation in DotA. Because the learning curve is extremely long, the minimum age of a player who can play adequately increases. You actually need to be a mature gamer to fully understand the game. Therefore, the amount of people who can't fully learn it combined with the amount of people who are new and don't know the game is very large.
There are also very few "newbs only" games.
Therefore, many newbs, and noobs, get in normal games, where people are already annoyed by noobs, have become elitist and discriminating because of it (in Europe people check with ping programs the location, I get kicked because i'm from Greece - apparently Greeks are noobs- no they aren't, but Greek dota players have their dota chat channels and create their private games, and the ones left to publics are small children) Why do I play publics? More options.

So people are getting more and more elitist and annoying.
I mean look at the guy in the first page cba to go check.
"you are an idiot because noobs crap at the game" they tell to some other guy.
Classic, the guy being an elitist believes that the other guy meant noobs and not newbs and goes bashing at him. He doesn't even think for a second that this guy may not know the difference, most people don't it's ok, but this guy, this guy thinks that the other guy would be naive enough to suggest that whiners' opinion should count. And calls them an idiot.

So unless you call this guy a veteran, why is my talk sickening?

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Yeah and in the newbs only game, pros join so they can win easy. ;/

As far as the stuff the other two people had said, I'm not even responding to that.

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Yeah but it's a dumb learning curve.

Learning how to play a class involves playing it.

No, it's worse! Learning to counter, or even damage effectively another hero involves having already played that specific hero

And the funny part to those not familiar? There are 91 heroes!

PS: My bad about the wikipedia thing, I tried to link and the first sentence was like: A noob is a newbie in a game, and I said f^*% it. It continues to discriminate between the two, thankfully.
Here's the link. Time to improve your gaming slang!
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noob

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In Guild Wars you could see what skills someone is using when they where cast and then read the description, and not have to play the class to know them.

It also made it so people couldn't keep builds a secret, not to mention the replays and live-tv.

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