[Ideas] Demigod NEEDS more than just 4 Demigods a side!

Although I agree generally what innociv is saying, you cant really compare GW to Demigod can you? Gw had 6-10 classes...Now count the number of combinations of classes you can have together (primary/secondary). Yea thats a definate 30+ amount of different classes...Each class has about 300+ skills or so? There are about 1000+ different items? Getting the drift...

Guild Wars and Demigod are two different genres...Demigod is rts/rpg and Guild Wars is mmorpg.

Regarding the theme that "8 demigods is not enough" - thats complete bs. Its plenty. Starcraft had THREE factions, Demigod has EIGHT (probably 9 with occulus and they will add more as time goes by). Thats right, the best RTS in the world (or at least its considered to be) had less then half the amount of factions/armies than demigod has. CoH had TWO classes...and you couldnt even mirror (i think..maybe you could, doesnt make a huge difference).

Now when you compare the amount of different match ups you can have in a 5v5 its INSANE. Here are some examples:

Torch Bearer, Unclean Beast, Rook, Regulus and Oak vs Rook, Rook, Rook, Sedna, Queen of Thorns

Vampire Lord, Vampire Lord, Sedna, Oak, Occulus vs Queen of Thorns, Regulus, Rook, Torch Bearer, Unclean Beast

Are you guys getting the drift? that was 2 of the hundreds of different match ups you can have. Now imagine that with each character going with a different skill builds/combos, different items, different strats etc. which this game will definately have - thats more than enough depth and will probably mean 99% of your games will be completely different than the rest of the games you've played.

Oh and to round things off, this is a statement from frogboy:

Perhaps you can then explain why we're being so stingy then. I mean, if 1 guy can make 80 heroes in DoTA or whatever, then why exactly do you think we're being so stingy? Maybe we're just lazy? I'd really like to hear your proposed rationale as to why we'd have "only" 8 heroes.

Heck, perhaps in Sins of a Solar Empire, we should have had 50 capital ships for 32 different races. Then it would have been just a totally awesome game. Right?

I mean, in Galactic Civilizations, we have 12 unique civilizations with the ability to create your own custom civilizations from scratch. Therefore, Galactic Civilizations must just be a lot better game than Starcraft, Sins, and Supreme Commander combined right? I mean, isn't that what matters? How many units there are?

There are two primary reasons for limiting the # of Demigods. The first is gameplay. On paper, having a gazillion Demigods to choose from probably sounds super l33t awesome. But in practice, it would be painful to properly balance and trivialize the uniqueness of each Demigod.

Second, there is the cost. Creating all the assets for a Demigod is incredibly expensive. As Chris said, a single Demigod costs well in excess of $100k to make. In a free mod, you can get away with reskinning units from WC3 in multiple ways (storm spirit vs. battle master for instance or holy knight vs. Moon rider). But in a commercial game of 2008, players expect very stark, very apparent differences not just visually but in how they move and function and play.

Moreover, we have to balance test each of these Demigods on many different maps to make sure that their powers, size, and other capabilities work well with what we put on the maps.

But I heartily agree that anyone who is going to be flaming us for "only" having 8 unique Demigods on release should absolutely get out of the beta now and preferably stick with Dota because that is not the direction we want to take.

It would be like someone saying that Counterstrike "sucks" because they "only" have a handful of differnet types you can play while some freeware mod or whatever lets players choose amongst dozens of different types.

I would think it would be patently obvious that if we wanted to just go for quantity of heroes that we could easily crank out 100+ Demigods using the same 8 bone structures we've got now.

Sorry guys, this isnt a new and improved DotA - its a completey different game with the same genre, thats all If you want 80+ heroes because it has so much depths go back to DotA. After all if a game had that many heroes it should never get boring and you would never want to change game, right? lol

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Quoting DalzK,

reply 1

Although I agree generally what innociv is saying, you cant really compare GW to Demigod can you? Gw had 6-10 classes...Now count the number of combinations of classes you can have together (primary/secondary). Yea thats a definate 30+ amount of different classes...Each class has about 300+ skills or so? There are about 1000+ different items? Getting the drift...

Guild Wars and Demigod are two different genres...Demigod is rts/rpg and Guild Wars is mmorpg.

Regarding the theme that "8 demigods is not enough" - thats complete bs. Its plenty. Starcraft had THREE factions, Demigod has EIGHT (probably 9 with occulus and they will add more as time goes by). Thats right, the best RTS in the world (or at least its considered to be) had less then half the amount of factions/armies than demigod has. CoH had TWO classes...and you couldnt even mirror (i think..maybe you could, doesnt make a huge difference).

Now when you compare the amount of different match ups you can have in a 5v5 its INSANE. Here are some examples:

Torch Bearer, Unclean Beast, Rook, Regulus and Oak vs Rook, Rook, Rook, Sedna, Queen of Thorns

Vampire Lord, Vampire Lord, Sedna, Oak, Occulus vs Queen of Thorns, Regulus, Rook, Torch Bearer, Unclean Beast

Are you guys getting the drift? that was 2 of the hundreds of different match ups you can have. Now imagine that with each character going with a different skill builds/combos, different items, different strats etc. which this game will definately have - thats more than enough depth and will probably mean 99% of your games will be completely different than the rest of the games you've played.

Sorry guys, this isnt a new and improved DotA - its a completey different game with the same genre, thats all If you want 80+ heroes because it has so much depths go back to DotA. After all if a game had that many heroes it should never get boring and you would never want to change game, right? lol

agreed in most points. However, even the best game gets boring after some time. And if it doesnt get boring, then the graphics get terrible . To the races: I thought races got more than one hero. Am I right?

To do a bit maths, which says absolutely nothing except that the possible number of combinations in demigod is not thaaat high:

Combinations in dota (only 1 hero picked once, 10 heroes in game, 90 total): 90! / (6!(90-6)! =

622 614 630

in demigod (10 heroes in game, 9 total, heroes picked multiple): (9+10-1)!/(9!(10-1)!) =

48 620

Counting maps, approx. 10, there are 486.200 combinations.

Maybe, maybe!! the 622614630 combinations are the reason why dota is still played so much . Just for fun, combinations possible in -du:

1 731 030 945 644

Hell, are these maths right Oo ?

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You forgot to add in your demigod caculations how much more skills they have(and 100% WILL have) and how they unique they are compared to the ones in DotA. (you forgot to do 8x48 620 due to Demigod having 8 maps, which = 388 960)
You see quantity does not = quality. If you ask me, 388 960 is more than enough combinations for me. I would much rather 388 960 QUALITY combo's, then 622 614 630 similar combo's. The 90 heroes in DotA is too over whelming imo and is the reason I am not playing it right now

EDIT~
And if we are going to start using maths then you must also include the amount of skills each hero has and how unique and how much depth each one has (demigod wins there) and also use the number of maps (demigod wins there) and also include the fact demigod has two types of heroes - assasin and generals (which in thereself have extra controllable units + buildings + eco) and then also include the amount of different strats and tatics the flags/gold mines will add AND the portals that are capturable.

Its a lot more complicated than you think

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"Counting maps, approx. 10, there are 486.200 combinations."

yeah you are right quality combos are definately better but you also have to take into account that the 48620 combinations will not differentiate that much.

Still, the first 1000 games will be pretty different

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My point is that 8/9 demigods is more than enough. They can concentrate on making them quality

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I would say 16 would be the sweet spot if they can do it without sacrificing quality.

You can only customise a demigod so much but you can't inherently change the nature of its strength and attack/defend skill patterns.

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I consider myself a close to pro dota player. I only play a certain number of heros depending on: team requirements, matchup, combo possibilities and lanes.

The only heros I EVER play are:

Mirana, Shadowfiend, Witchdoctor, Dragonknight, Axe, Invoker, Omniknight, Lich

Most of you won't even know what those are, but the point is that I don't ever play any other heros other than these 8 (accept for fun, or whatever). When I first started playing, I'd play anything, but then I wanted to perfect my play, and the above heros are (IMO) the best heros in the game.

So I am happy with only having 8 heros to 'choose' from in this game.

What I'm NOT happy about is being able to play a game with the same hero on each team. Aside from the fact that this doesn't make sense (how can a Demigod battle against itself?) it means that the 'best' hero's in the game will ALWAYS be on each team, or the team without that hero will lose.

This makes the game dull and predictable.

Having a larger pool of heros allows for team diversification and strategical depth.

I'm sorry, that whole paragraph from Frogboy about 'go play dota if you want 80 hero's' etc etc sounds like this to me:

'We just don't have the resources to make more than 8 heros. We are sorry. Get used to it.'

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I have a hard time believing each demigod costs this much. Maybe the first one did due to the inital investments in programs and such but even still.

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modeller, texturer, coder. need one of each to make a unit, right? people need to be paid, and this isn't the modding scene so there's no one-man-game-making-nerd-of-the-apocalypse so there's no doubling-up on jobs.

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Eoynn you have a good point but there wont be any "best" heroes. Thats the whole point of frogboys speech, they making 8 demigods so balance wont be an issue, and with this beta and the way they are taking in our feedback at the moment I really dont see any "best heroes" emerging.

Oh and they will add heroes in the future + we should be gettin Occulus, an extra demigod (thats a guess)

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I completely understand that every demigod will have many ways of being played... but for the fluff's sake, I think it makes sense to at least give the option of having all different demigods out on the playing field and not have duplicate characters. For example, if a rook was on each team, why would a rook fight himself in order to become one the gods? Are there really 2 rooks that look the same and have the same name?

I'm not saying that they should make it so that you can ONLY play as different Demigods, I just think there should be enough so that you have the option.

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Getting pissed off that you see another rook on the team is like getting pissed off in WoW or D2 that theres another Warror or Mage in the Arena/Active game. Also, no one flips out in TF2 when they see two snipers that look exactly alike.

If fluff and Lore is the your issue here then steps should be taken to fluff it up, with different demigod skins, glowing weapons, item graphics, etc. Good demigods should look good, evil demigods should be given a darker skin. A two-rook eyesore is a bad excuse to throw in another Demigod that has nearly the same abilities.

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If they give everyone an alternate skin I'd be alright with that too, right now all that changes with the alternate skin is his flag color. It just seems weird to me that two of the exact same demigod will be fighting each other, but I suppose the single player will be fluff enough.

Speaking of single player, I'd like to know exactly what that is going to look like...

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Quoting Jebobek,

reply 12

Getting pissed off that you see another rook on the team is like getting pissed off in WoW or D2 that theres another Warror or Mage in the Arena/Active game. Also, no one flips out in TF2 when they see two snipers that look exactly alike.

This.

Quoting ToxDrawace,

reply 13

If they give everyone an alternate skin I'd be alright with that too, right now all that changes with the alternate skin is his flag color. It just seems weird to me that two of the exact same demigod will be fighting each other, but I suppose the single player will be fluff enough.

Speaking of single player, I'd like to know exactly what that is going to look like...

Better pull every RTS game off the shelf for letting Zerg fight against Zerg, huh?

Oh noes their hives and units look the same except for the colors too!

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@innociv

Every race can war against itself. Unless you are really convinced that your reflection is real, or they've perfected cloning, it's pretty hard to fight yourself.

And to be totally honest, it really isn't that big a deal to ME. Just one of those little details that some people think about. Doesn't change my mind about it being a good game or anything though. When I said it makes sense to have the option, i didnt mean everyone should play that way, i just meant that some people might like to, so it might be good to consider it.

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Oh please tell me how both sides in dawn of war can have the same named hero fighting each other, then.

This arguement is just so stupid. Stop making it.

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See, that's where you keep getting it wrong. I didn't say that it doesn't happen. I know it happens. I also have many friends who like to play and try to set up scenarios. just because people CAN have the same hero fighting each other doesn't mean it HAS to. Right now there HAVE to be duplicate Demigods. All I'm saying is that they should make it so it is possible to create a realistic scenario if they would like to. I'm not saying that every game should be set up so that it HAS to be like that.

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i dont understand why this convo is going on for so long if we get more characters later on we do if we dont we dont why cant people just play 1 character and expect 1 person on the other side to have the same character as well if it comes down to skill and you lose dont whine and say its unfair we can pick the same character its clear the other person mustve played that character longer and developed a strategy for it pretty much like every RTS and Fighter game there is same thing in all RPG and MMORPG for once im gonna bring in GW and WoW and say that if u give 2 people the same armor same weapons same skills and same amount of health and you lose dont bitch about it its clear your not good iunno why people cant just let people pick the character they like without going we already have 1 of those heroes chose another.

I might Edit this later on sinse i wrote this fast and didnt put much thought into it.

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it has nothing to do with having the same skills as each other. I think u misunderstood what I was trying to say, but I didn't mean for it to become such a big deal, so we really don't have to talk about it anymore.

And now I kinda feel like I sound like a total jerk which is the last thing i intended to do so I apologize. I was just trying to give another perspective on an idea that was based more on how my friends like to play then on my own preference.

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Quoting Jebobek,

reply 12

Getting pissed off that you see another rook on the team is like getting pissed off in WoW or D2 that theres another Warror or Mage in the Arena/Active game. Also, no one flips out in TF2 when they see two snipers that look exactly alike.

If fluff and Lore is the your issue here then steps should be taken to fluff it up, with different demigod skins, glowing weapons, item graphics, etc. Good demigods should look good, evil demigods should be given a darker skin. A two-rook eyesore is a bad excuse to throw in another Demigod that has nearly the same abilities.

Um, no. Just no.

In WoW, warriors and mages are classes. In Demigod, each hero is a DemiGOD - that means one of a kind - that means battling to become a God.

In an army there are thousands of 'archers' or 'footmen', but only one 'king'. In this game, Demigods are 'kings'.

It doesn't make sense, and nothing you can say will make it make sense I'm afraid.

Bottom line is this:

Demigods should only be able to be picked once

Need MOAR Demigods

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Creating more demigods just so you cant pick them twice is stupid.

This game is fun and fun it should be. if I'm having fun while playing 3 reg' vs 3 rook I'll do that and I'll do it alot, becaus it's fun. the fact that they are demigod in backround doesn't mean you should change gameplay just so it fit to there names.

If you want a team without same demigods go ahead and do that, why blocking gameplay options to others.

Also, tyo said that in 4v4 and lower players maps there will be an option to make every player choose different demigod, he said this a while ago so I dont know if thats still planed, but even without that it's doesn't matter because it fun as it is.

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again, not so they CAN'T be picked twice, but so you have the OPTION of not picking them twice. Hopefully that clears up any confusion with my idea.

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There is already a unique heros option that'll be in the game. Stop arguing about it.

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Quoting Eoynn,

reply 20

Um, no. Just no.

In WoW, warriors and mages are classes. In Demigod, each hero is a DemiGOD - that means one of a kind - that means battling to become a God.

In an army there are thousands of 'archers' or 'footmen', but only one 'king'. In this game, Demigods are 'kings'.

It doesn't make sense, and nothing you can say will make it make sense I'm afraid.

Bottom line is this:

Demigods should only be able to be picked once

Need MOAR Demigods

It's silly to do something so detrimental to gameplay for the sake of "realism." It is no exaggeration to say that it will kill the game's chances of being picked up by serious competitive players if they can't use their character of choice because someone else beat them to it.

The characters in TF2 are all unique individuals with their own personalities, and you don't see people getting upset about 2 scouts in the same game. This is also true for basically every fighting game ever.

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thats what i said

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