TiberiusAudley

Join Date 05/2008

Attributes!

Getting rid of those ten "useless" (read: Uninituitive) skills at the bottom of the skill menu.

Alright, I figured I'd make a forum post about this since I brought it up in IRC the other night and didn't develop it much. I touched on my idea there, but here I want to detail it a bit more.

Currently, there are those 10 skills at the bottom of the skill menu..that raise your Demigod's base attributes a set amount.

This kinda feels out of place, given the other skills available to the Demigods..and currently, the only Demigod I feel the need to obtain those skills with is Regulus (maybe up to 3 with Rook or Torchbearer, but I max that line with Regulus)

I think in this case, following the norm would actually be a better solution, with the addition of Attribute Points.

With stats like Strength (Damage), Constitution (Life/Base Armor), Dexterity (Attack Speed, and maybe a small evasion chance), and Wisdom (Energy, and maybe a small amount of magic or skill damage effect to it)...as well as one unique attribute per Demigod..such as:

Rook - Splash Damage

Regulus - Critical Chance/Critical Damage Bonus

Torchbearer - Reduced Cool Down or Reduced Energy costs for skills...or increased length of immolation effect.

And for future Demigods we know of..Queen of Thorns - Bonus Thorn Damage...Sedna - Increased Healing Effects...Vampire Lord - increased conversion chance.

Demigods could gain one to three attribute points per level, allowing the player to further customize their Demigod as it grows and further specialize the roles they choose to play as their demigod.

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i brought this up with Tyo before and i think he said they where already redesigning it..
But not about attributes or anything, jsut changing the bonuses on enhanced attributes "skill".

I said that more simply there should be different amounts of armor/health/mana/regen/attackspeed bonuses, and for regulas and other ranged units it should give a range bonus(more bonus for regulas than other ranged demigods)

I don't really think rook should be getting more splash damge, or torchbearer get less cooldown or energy cost though..

Having no attributes was a design decisions. There shouldn't be attributes. They're dumb. Items can give the same exact bonuses with their stats that you'd get from having +5 str or whatever.

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Hm, i like the Stat bonus as they are now. They should be the same for every Demigod, right now, they already give a good bonus for Rook / Torch. The +Hp/Mana and +Regen is good for everyone.

So only the physical DPSer, like Regulus, profit specially from the Dmg + Attackspeed. Imo, thats ok and thats how it should be. Those heros/demigods are more depending on items/stats in any game (Rpg. Rts with Heros etc or Hack n' Slays) i know. and profit more from it.

I've no problem with diffrent item dependancy. Means, caster like Torchy can help the team with Flaglocks etc. while other dudes spend their mana for killing other Demis and the third guys spend some money for tanking + support etc. pp. Brings more depth to Demigod choices. So 5x ultra Item depending hero wouldn't be that good, since the goldgain is limited with the spawns. Sure everyone gets gold all the time, but significantly more while killing creepwaves.

So long,

Aspartem

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I think the passive skills would be more important if Demigods weren't so strong to begin with.

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You know, that all passives are quite good right now. Reducing or buffing 25% Attack speed is alot, perma -30% MS seems rather imba then ok and Rooks God's strenght is just broken as it is right now. >.<

Last game i ran around with 1.4k dmg per hit. Made 1.1k hits on torchbearers with 2.5k hp. Boulder -> Hit -> Hit = Dead in 3secs.

So long, Aspartem

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Quoting PossiblyImpossible,

reply 3

I think the passive skills would be more important if Demigods weren't so strong to begin with.

You mean instead it should be impossible for a lvl 10 to fight someone level 14, and if a level 10 encounters a lvl 14 he should simply run away even if the level10 person is more skilled?

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i think i like Tiberius idea cause right now the magic that TB dishes out is weak, very weak later in game and u cant get it stronger.

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Okay for the record, this is why i think Attributes are horrible for this type of game, and they're dumb in DotA too:

So what does +str do? You say more dmg? Okay, fine.
Lets say it's 2 damage per str.

So getting +10 str is +20 damage. So if an item gives +10 str it's giving +20 damage, and if you get +10 str by spending attributes you get +20 damage.

Why not just give +20 damage then and stop jerking around?!

It's just complexity for the sake of complexity, and that's bad! I'm pretty sure this is why Scathis originally decided against it. No attributes was decided sooo many months ago AFAIK and I hope they don't change their minds.

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What if you were to split the attribute bonuses into 3 categories shared by all demigods?

1 ) Stun Resistance ( reduces time spent in stun by a % )

2 ) Damage Resistance ( reduces incoming damage by a % )

3 ) Crit Chance ( increases crit chance by a % )

#2 and #3 are given by items but #1 would be a new stat. This way each one could be more focused and a demigod would only want to get the ones he needs.

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@innociv : If each attribute had the same effects on every hero, such a system would be dumb.

In the WC3 system, each hero has a "main attribute". In addition to the common bonuses, 1 point of the main stat grants 1 damage. This simple concept has huge consequences. It means that the same item benefits some heroes more than others : a STR item will give AGI and INT heroes only HP and HP regen. But to the STR hero, it will give the same amount of HP and HP regen + dmg.

IMHO, that's something interesting. In comparison, it's the concept of "All items give the same benefit for every hero" that seems boring...

When I first saw the available heroes, the DotA player in me immediately thought "OK, we have a STR, an AGI and an INT hero". That's just to say how deep the "attribute" concept has become in DotA.

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[quote who="Groothana" reply="9" id="1870287 It means that the same item benefits some heroes more than others : a STR item will give AGI and INT heroes only HP and HP regen. But to the STR hero, it will give the same amount of HP and HP regen + dmg.

IMHO, that's something interesting. In comparison, it's the concept of "All items give the same benefit for every hero" that seems boring...

[/quote]

Wait, what? Can you explain that again? Is there a typo in there? Giving +STR is more interesting than giving +DMG (or +[whatever you want to associate with strength]) when they're exactly the same thing? Yeah, you lost me...

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Ok insane im going to explain it.

In Dota 3 types of Attributes exist: Str, Agi and Int. Strenght gives HP + Hpreg, Agility gives attackspeed and armor and Intelligence gives mana + mana reg.

Now each Dota Hero got one Main-Attribute. So you'll have Str-Heros, Agi-Hereos and Int-Heros. Your main-attribute is the attribute which will give you +damage additional to the other effects i explained. So if a Agi-Hero buys a Sword with +5 Dmg and +5 Str he would get: +5 Dmg and some HP. A Str-Hero would get +10 Dmg and the same amount of Hp, since Str is his mainattribute.

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The Stat skill in Demigod is quite good, and all heros profit from it quite ok. I dont think it needs a change, and its good for alternative builds - i perfere a few points in +Stats in any build.

So long, Aspartem

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This is not the DotA forum, but anyway .

In the WC3 engine, heroes have 3 stats : STR, AGI, INT

Each stat grants bonuses for all classes :

STR : increases HP pool and HP regen
AGI : increases armor and attack speed
INT : increases mana pool and mana regen

Each hero has a "main attribute". His main attribute gives him 1 dmg. So, if you have an AGI hero, he has

STR : increases HP pool and HP regen
AGI : increases armor and attack speed, and gives 1 dmg
INT : increases mana pool and mana regen

So depending on the type of your hero, an item giving stats will benefit diffrently.

As it is now on Demigod, each item is the same for all heroes

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Quoting innociv,

reply 5

Quoting PossiblyImpossible, reply 3I think the passive skills would be more important if Demigods weren't so strong to begin with.
You mean instead it should be impossible for a lvl 10 to fight someone level 14, and if a level 10 encounters a lvl 14 he should simply run away even if the level10 person is more skilled?

I mean improving the base stats of your hero seems pretty pointless when your auto attack and hitpoints from the get go are enough to allow you to survive in a lane for a long time and own waves of creeps coming your way.

You start out so strong that there's very little micromanagement you have to do with your hero or your gold reserves. As a result, the passive skills aren't that important. You might as well just focus on activatable skills, especially because your mana takes a while to run out and regenerates pretty quickly.

In direct response to your question, though, I don't think a difference of 4 levels should be that big of a deal. However, if somebody is like 5-6+ levels above you, you shouldn't be on essentially equal footing. There should be a point to getting levels up over your opponents.

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Yeah but you can also fight enemy demigods while low level.

I like how it works.

I DO think archers and minotaurs need more damage, but how they die easy is fine.

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I think the lvl should say something about the strenght of a demigod. Say a newbie with a lvl 16 Demigod could loose against a real good player with a lvl 11-13 Demigod.

But a decent player with Lv 16 would kill a good player with lv 11-13, just because he got more/better skills and most likely better items. If EVERYthing is decided only trough skill, add last hitting, denying etc. +start at lvl 25 with full gear. Else everythng before is just a time-waste-machine.

Items + Lvls should have a great impact. Since farming / pushing is a big, or the biggest part of the game.

So long, Aspartem

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