DRM problem with used copy » Forum Post by epiclulz

Quoting epiclulz,

Merriam-Webster: the attribution of one's own ideas, feelings, or attitudes to other people or to objects.
Dictionary.com: the tendency to ascribe to another person feelings, thoughts, or attitudes present in oneself, or to regard external reality as embodying such feelings, thoughts, etc., in some way.
Wikipedia: a defense mechanism in which one attributes one’s own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts and/or emotions to others.

Quoting a web dictionary doesn't make you intelligent or well informed; the definition you are quoting may be correct but the context in which you are using it is plain stupid. I'm sorry to tell you, but the reply you got is hardly a case of projection, and way far from a "classic" case of projection. You are only showing everyone here how uninformed you are and how much you like to talk about stuff you don't understand.

A classic case of projection would be, for example, somebody hating gay people because deep inside he has gay desires and hates this fact, so instead of dealing with the desires he projects that thing he hates about himself in somebody else and attacks it.

Now, all this replies you are getting are honest comments and quite true, you are saying non-sense; and no comment on this thread is a "classic" case of projection, that's absurd. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and will assume you are a 13 year old kid; I really recommend you to read more and avoid using arguments you don't understand, is better to be humble and willing to learn than a moron who speaks non-sense.

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Here's the thing, it's frustrating, but have you ever dealt with something worse, such as SecuROM?

I've never had any problems with SecuROM.

In that scenario, which do you find yourself preferring?

You're presenting a false dilemma.

The truth is, you want to play this game, you just want to get it on the cheap, or even free.

I bought it because it happened to be there and because I had heard it's good. Now that I know better, I'm not even going to bother torrenting it. There are some promising games coming to the PC in January anyway.

Continuous patches, free updates, extended support, and tools are rewards for those who support our work. It would be an insult to paying customers to give these away. Playing the 'Corporate Greed' card is just low. You obviously know nothing about our company history, our size, and our community involvment.

Using DRM to block second hand sales is greed, plain and simple.

Patches aren't some fucking "reward," and outside these cult-like forums you're pretty unlikely to find a single person who's outraged that a publisher is providing patches for free. Why would they care? Pretty much everyone else in the industry provides patches to anyone who wants them, and letting third parties host them is a lot cheaper than Impulse anyway.

Quoting a web dictionary doesn't make you intelligent or well informed

Did I claim it does? You're the one who started crying that I'm using the word incorrectly. I simply provided three sources to prove that projection means what I said it does.

the definition you are quoting may be correct but the context in which you are using it is plain stupid.

Yes, it may certainly seem that way when you don't understand what projection means.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and will assume you are a 13 year old kid

If you had any real arguments, you wouldn't need to resort to tired old nonsense like this.

I really recommend you to read more and avoid using arguments you don't understand, is better to be humble and willing to learn than a moron who speaks non-sense.

This is a classic case of irony.

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Quoting epiclulz,

reply 2

Here's the thing, it's frustrating, but have you ever dealt with something worse, such as SecuROM?
I've never had any problems with SecuROM.

In that scenario, which do you find yourself preferring?
You're presenting a false dilemma.

The truth is, you want to play this game, you just want to get it on the cheap, or even free.
I bought it because it happened to be there and because I had heard it's good. Now that I know better, I'm not even going to bother torrenting it. There are some promising games coming to the PC in January anyway.

Continuous patches, free updates, extended support, and tools are rewards for those who support our work. It would be an insult to paying customers to give these away. Playing the 'Corporate Greed' card is just low. You obviously know nothing about our company history, our size, and our community involvment.
Using DRM to block second hand sales is greed, plain and simple.

Patches aren't some fucking "reward," and outside these cult-like forums you're pretty unlikely to find a single person who's outraged that a publisher is providing patches for free. Why would they care? Pretty much everyone else in the industry provides patches to anyone who wants them, and letting third parties host them is a lot cheaper than Impulse anyway.

Quoting a web dictionary doesn't make you intelligent or well informed
Did I claim it does? You're the one who started crying that I'm using the word incorrectly. I simply provided three sources to prove that projection means what I said it does.

the definition you are quoting may be correct but the context in which you are using it is plain stupid.
Yes, it may certainly seem that way when you don't understand what projection means.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and will assume you are a 13 year old kid
If you had any real arguments, you wouldn't need to resort to tired old nonsense like this.

I really recommend you to read more and avoid using arguments you don't understand, is better to be humble and willing to learn than a moron who speaks non-sense.
This is a classic case of irony.

After reading all 5 pages of this post I wonder what is your point? You are not going to get your way and get what you want and your rants are not going to sway anyone from buying something from Stardock or Ironclad. If anything its just going to tell people don't bother buying used copys of this game. So you brought a used copy of this game and got burned. Well you have two options 1) Take it back where you brought it from. (They obviously sell used games so there should be no problem takeing it back.) or 2) Buy new copy or serial key to tie to your impulse account. Honestly I don't know why you just didn't take it back to where you brought it from that would have been the first thing I did. Im sure if you had you would have got your money back. Comeing into the forums wasteing your time and energy was pointless. After all this you still don't have what you want and will not get it no matter how many post you start in here. But again after further thought maybe you are just bored and came here to stir up a hornets nest just to have something to do.

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Quoting epiclulz,

reply 25

Really you can plya the game perfectly fine. There is nothing stopping you there. You can try single player etc.

It can't be updated. Multiplayer doesn't work either.

...

*shrug* In the end really its your friends fault and nobody elses.
What fucking friend? I have no idea who used to own the game. I bought it from a store.

Previously, you have wrote about site like PirateBay... update to the 1.12 can be find on the internet, via torrent site... I have my updates in these way since impulse don't work on linux system...

About the multiplayer, it is logical that it don't work... Stardock pay for the server used for online game... the first owner of the game have use these service and can continue to use it.... Why a business will spend money for allow you to make online game if they have nothing in return...

You have no bought a original copy from the store but a second hand one... if you buy a second car in a garage, the constructor is not responsible but the garage... stop complain here and go cry to your store...

And before begin again a long rant, i am a open source guy... yes, what they call free software... free meaning "freedom" and not "gratis"... boxed linux distro are not gratis... you don't pay for the software, you pay for the support, the box, the manual, the DVD... download version are free of charge but without any support... In some way, Stardock work within the same model... in some way, the game is free, you pay for the online game only...

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After reading all 5 pages of this post

Well you have two options 1) Take it back where you brought it from.

Honestly I don't know why you just didn't take it back to where you brought it from that would have been the first thing I did. Im sure if you had you would have got your money back.

If you readh the whole thread, how come you're unaware of the fact that I already returned it?

But again after further thought maybe you are just bored and came here to stir up a hornets nest just to have something to do.

I suppose the possibility that I'm complaining about unfair business practises never occured to you.

You have no bought a original copy from the store but a second hand one... if you buy a second car in a garage, the constructor is not responsible but the garage... stop complain here and go cry to your store...

Read the fucking thread.

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Several people have calmly explained to you already why your argument is fundamentally flawed. Stardock didn't rip you or anyone else off; the original owner ripped off the store they resold it to.

It seems you don't understand the difference between a license and a CD Key. It's like driving a car, just because someone sells you their drivers license doesn't mean you're licensed to drive; the same concept of non-transferability applies here. All you purchased was the disc, box, manual, and a used CD Key. The CD Key itself IS NOT THE LICENSE, it is simply the means used to verify and accept the terms of the license. If you have ever read an EULA you'd know that the vast majority of software is non-transferable; just because it's common to transfer licenses doesn't mean it's technically allowed. Windows is a good example; the license specifically states that it is non-transferable. The only reason Microsoft provides support for used copies is that they really have no way to prove it's used; Stardock does.

When the original purchaser linked their license to their Stardock account they were granted the right to play they game without the disc in the drive and to re-download their game onto any computer they want at any time they want forever. The reason Stardock and Ironclad decided to do things this way is not so they can rip people off, it's so they can provide top notch convenience to their customers. This is also what makes it so dishonest for anyone to sell this game. The original purchaser can sell their copy and then at any time in the future re-download it. The reason you're "free loading" if you have a second hand copy is that you never paid Stardock for any of the bandwidth cost they'll incur from you AND the original owner. The original owner paid for their bandwidth and not yours or the next person's or the next person's. Stardock has to run a business and flushing those costs away is not a good way to do that.

Several times now you've mentioned how EA's copy protection is so much better. What happens if your CD breaks due to a bad drive spindle? Do you own your game any less then? You can't play it anymore so you must right? After all if you still owned the game you'd have the right to play it whenever you wanted. So if you don't own you game less with a broken CD then since EA's scheme is so superior here they'll just send you a free CD. Except they won't. They wouldn't send you a new CD for the exact same reason that Stardock has made their games non-transferable; their chosen IP management scheme. If EA were to send you a new CD then for all they know you'd have two copies of the game that you could use on two computers at the same time or sell or give away; effectively costing them money. For Stardock if they were to grant you a new license then two people would be being granted the bandwidth rights that the license extends to them and could potentially be using that bandwidth concurrently; again costing them money.

This is of course referring to any game before EA decided to "update" their SecureROM protection scheme to include activations. Comparing the post "updated" SecureROM to Stardock makes it pretty clear how customer oriented Stardock's solution is and how greed oriented EA's solution is. Yes both block second hand sales; but EA's removes pretty much all your basic rights to determine how you want to utilize their software where as Stardock's grants you even more rights than normal. Stardock doesn't have install limits, Stardock doesn't have activations, Stardock doesn't have disc checks, Stardock doesn't even make you provide a CD Key to install their games.

In the internet era we're entering now this will be the norm since it's actually enforceable now. Legally this is how it's always been. If you bought a game second hand you were buying the media it was on and THAT WAS IT, you were never granted the right to play that game. Now that they can verify that you don't have the right to play the game since you don't have a license (not the same a key) they are enforcing the terms of their EULA. The only difference between companies is how generous they're being. Stardock is being incredibly generous in this regard where as EA is being incredibly stingy. I can understand your misplaced frustration but you really picked the wrong company to pitch a fit about.

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Quoting epiclulz,

reply 2

The truth is, you want to play this game, you just want to get it on the cheap, or even free.

I bought it because it happened to be there and because I had heard it's good. Now that I know better, I'm not even going to bother torrenting it. There are some promising games coming to the PC in January anyway.

For someone who has "given up" on this game, and says he has "returned" it to the store - he sure has lots of time to continue to debate this on the forum - maybe he is still secretly playing the game. I asked you earlier, you did not reply - go on, epiclulz, tell us all how much you paid for Sins second hand? Are you still playing the game despite "returning it to the store"?

Or dare you only respond to questions you can reply with "Read the F-ing thread" or "You're talking nonsense" (or equivalent) or "I've already explained.."

So, the opening post is:

Quoting ,

quoting post

Is it really true that when you buy SoaSE and link your CD-key to an account, they stay together forever and thus screw over anyone unfortunate enough to buy a used copy containing that CD-key?

Answer: YES

Satisfied? Don't like it? Too bad, them's the rulez. I personally don't think it's all that bad, but what do I know, yes? But since you are way smarter and better than me, why are you hanging around this forum with the fanboyz like me who are (in your view) getting screwed by SD/IC? Are you slumming?

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Quoting josephc1989,

reply 16

im pretty sure valve's own games require steam to be patched. Personally i like the updating service of steam and impulse. Theyre both fast and automatic. Lots of games have ridiculous numbers of patches (im looking at you dawn of war), and i just hate downloading 8 different exes just to patch up to the rite version. Then theres problems of regional patch variations etc etc.

Now the op here hates digital distribution and using accounts to play games instead of disks, so he can choose not to buy any steam and impulse games (his loss really, great games on there).

Ah you're right, they must've removed the ability to patch outside of Steam now. Don't get me wrong though, I love both Stardock and Steam as much as you, they're amazing services, it's just that for those that bought the game at a retail store and has no net access can't get any support whatsoever.

Quoting Zubaz,

reply 18

Used copies Of Sins aren't worthless. It plays very well as is without patches or updates. You. Get. What. You. Pay. For.

At least put the latest stable patch in the user accounts download section like you have the bonus material if you bought Sins? My friend would be more than appreciative if you did that. She could then download the patch elsewhere and then update her game.

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

Is it really true that when you buy SoaSE and link your CD-key to an account, they stay together forever and thus screw over anyone unfortunate enough to buy a used copy containing that CD-key?

Basically, although I would not use those exact words. I personally like this a lot better than EA's invasive copy protection system.

Maybe someday a transfer system can be put into place, but right now yes it is permanently tied to your account.

Whether we like it or not, there are a lot of pirates out there, and publishers have to do something to prevent it from getting out of control.

They are, after all, companies that need to pay their employees. "Profit" is not evil or bad, despite rumors to the contrary that have been floating around the Internet.

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astrath

Join Date 04/2006

+28

Five pages of flaming and trolling?

Now that is impressive.

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Several people have calmly explained to you already why your argument is fundamentally flawed. Stardock didn't rip you or anyone else off; the original owner ripped off the store they resold it to.

There is no warning anywhere on the package, and witholding patches from people who have a used copy is unreasonable and harmful to consumers.

The reason you're "free loading" if you have a second hand copy is that you never paid Stardock for any of the bandwidth cost they'll incur from you AND the original owner.

Paying money for something is by definition not free-loading, and if Stardock is so concerned about bandwidth they should distribute their patches the old-fashioned way. But of course they're not going to do that, because this isn't about bandwidth, this is about control.

Several times now you've mentioned how EA's copy protection is so much better. What happens if your CD breaks due to a bad drive spindle? Do you own your game any less then? You can't play it anymore so you must right? After all if you still owned the game you'd have the right to play it whenever you wanted.

Replace "CD" and "game" with "toaster" and "play" with "use" and this conundrum will be promptly unlocked.

This is of course referring to any game before EA decided to "update" their SecureROM protection scheme to include activations. Comparing the post "updated" SecureROM to Stardock makes it pretty clear how customer oriented Stardock's solution is and how greed oriented EA's solution is.

So far, I've had no problems with EA's releases.

I can understand your misplaced frustration but you really picked the wrong company to pitch a fit about.

It is obvious that I didn't.

For someone who has "given up" on this game, and says he has "returned" it to the store - he sure has lots of time to continue to debate this on the forum - maybe he is still secretly playing the game.

Why would I want to play it?

I asked you earlier, you did not reply - go on, epiclulz, tell us all how much you paid for Sins second hand?

I don't even remember anymore. What difference does it make?

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Did you even read my post or just skim it for quotable chunks?

You are "free loading" because you never paid a dime to Stardock. You paid the used game store, yes, but NOT STARDOCK. They don't get any money from used sales and hence have no obligation to you. Again I point out that you should read an EULA, ANY EULA. That is your warning and as it is industry standard there is no need to point it out on the packaging.

Also how would distrubuting the patches in the "old-fashioned way" alleviate their bandwidth costs? Do you seriously think places like fileplanet host files for these companies free of charge? If you do you are sadly mistaken. No matter how the patch is distrubuted it is an operational cost of the business meant for paying customers, which you were not. Yes you paid for it but that doesn't make you their customer as none of your money went back to them. This is a fairly basic fact that you are completely ignoring.

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ZubaZ

Join Date 11/2001

+917

There is no warning anywhere on the package, and witholding patches from people who have a used copy is unreasonable and harmful to consumers

What you think is unreasonable is opinion, not fact. "Harmful"? Users are harmed how? The game beats the hell out of the user?

Paying money for something is by definition not free-loading

Using a companies products or services without paying for them is free-loading.

Replace "CD" and "game" with "toaster" and "play" with "use" and this conundrum will be promptly unlocked.

A product like that can't be used at the same time by multiple people without paying for it. Flawed comparison.

Yes you paid for it but that doesn't make you their customer as none of your money went back to them. This is a fairly basic fact that you are completely ignoring.

Well said. Users who want a second-hand patch for a second-hand game should go to the second-hand retailer.

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Is there a big sign on my car that says the warranty is not transferrable should i sell the vehicle? It doesn't need to be in 72 point text in triplicate screaming at you for attention. A bulk of the important info is always in the EULA. You should have know that and read up on it. It falls upon you as the consumer to make informed purchasing choices. Don't blame IC/SD for your lack of foresight.

There is a big difference between a customer and someone who happens to possess your product.

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You are "free loading" because you never paid a dime to Stardock. You paid the used game store, yes, but NOT STARDOCK.

I am paying money and thus not free-loading. Where the money ends up is of no consequence.

Also how would distrubuting the patches in the "old-fashioned way" alleviate their bandwidth costs? Do you seriously think places like fileplanet host files for these companies free of charge?

I've never heard of download sites charging publishers for hosting files. Even if they did, it's bound to be cheaper than running Impulse.

No matter how the patch is distrubuted it is an operational cost of the business meant for paying customers, which you were not.

Yet somehow the game industry has so far managed to survive this gross injustice. Except Stardock, it seems.

What you think is unreasonable is opinion, not fact.

No, I'm afraid it's a fact.

"Harmful"? Users are harmed how? The game beats the hell out of the user?

Now you're just being stupid.

Using a companies products or services without paying for them is free-loading.

You don't seem to understand what the term means.

A product like that can't be used at the same time by multiple people without paying for it. Flawed comparison.

Most games can't be used that way either, due to copy protection.

Is there a big sign on my car that says the warranty is not transferrable should i sell the vehicle? It doesn't need to be in 72 point text in triplicate screaming at you for attention. A bulk of the important info is always in the EULA. You should have know that and read up on it. It falls upon you as the consumer to make informed purchasing choices. Don't blame IC/SD for your lack of foresight.

The EULA wasn't printed on the box (and even if it had been, it wouldn't have been much use since those things are impossibly convoluted and borderline unintelligible). Fact: there was no warning when there should have been.

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ZubaZ

Join Date 11/2001

+917

"Harmful"? Users are harmed how? The game beats the hell out of the user?

Now you're just being stupid.

Calling people stupid is a bad choice. Consider this a warning from a moderator.

witholding patches from people who have a used copy is unreasonable and harmful to consumers

What you think is unreasonable is opinion, not fact.

No, I'm afraid it's a fact.

Please explain it to me in more detail then. Just because you think it true, does not make it true.

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I like how buying a used copy of a game is suddenly some fucking heinous, immoral and borderline criminal act

Unfortunetly that`s the way it is now. You cannot buy a used PC game anymore. You`re not paying for the game, That`s console gamming. PC gamming, You`re paying for the serial #. I understand why you`re upset, I would be too. If you`re going to play games on you`re PC, This is the way it is.

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I am paying money and thus not free-loading. Where the money ends up is of no consequence.

How much did you pay stardok......................................................

if that is 0, then why should they support you???????

/facepalm

anyway, witha name like Epiclulz and an aperent inabillity to make an argument a kindergarden teatcher would accept. I'm faiirly confident this is either a troll (lock post) a person so retarded that he should be locked up(just ban him) or a republican with plans to restore bush to power(shoot him)

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

I am paying money and thus not free-loading. Where the money ends up is of no consequence.

It's plenty consequence. If you buy a stereo at Wal-Mart, don't expect to be able to return it to Best Buy for a refund.

I've never heard of download sites charging publishers for hosting files.

You mean those ad-filled sites where every other page screams "PREMIUM MEMBERSHIP AVAILABLE!" and has hour-long waits in a queue before downloading the file?

They charge plenty of money - and if they don't, they fill the page with ads.

Nothing is truly free.

Yet somehow the game industry has so far managed to survive this gross injustice. Except Stardock, it seems.

Yeah - by offering one or two patches, then shutting down development altogether. Many of my games, even the fairly recent ones, are no longer being updated, even with still known bugs. Stardock's games are a notable exception to this rule, it seems.

The EULA wasn't printed on the box (and even if it had been, it wouldn't have been much use since those things are impossibly convoluted and borderline unintelligible). Fact: there was no warning when there should have been.

This is the one good point you have in your entire post - there should be at least a warning about a EULA enclosed, and even a link to the EULA's website printed. I've seen games that have a link to the EULA printed on their boxes.

PC gamming, You`re paying for the serial #.

Like it or hate it, that's pretty much the way PC gaming has gone. You pay for a serial number.

Because frankly that's the one thing they know is unique and can check for duplicates easily.

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ZubaZ

Join Date 11/2001

+917

this is either a troll (lock post) a person so retarded

Let's leave the name calling out of this.

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Let's leave the name calling out of this.

it was meant mostly as a joke post, as im 99% sure this is a troll. that said...

At some point you have to start calling a spade for a spade and a fool for a fool.

calling somebody XXXX is only insulting if it is clearly wrong( calling ppl that belive in a God delusional is not insulting until they prove he exsists, and a person with 50 IQ is stupied) case in point, the OP has demonstated nothing that makes it invalid calling him less than *smart*

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Calling people stupid is a bad choice. Consider this a warning from a moderator.

It was the only choice, since he was being stupid. Obviously I was not referring to physical harm.

If you`re going to play games on you`re PC, This is the way it is.

For the billionth time: this is rare. This is the exception. This is not the norm.

How much did you pay stardok......................................................

if that is 0, then why should they support you???????

/facepalm

You're changing the subject. This is about whether or not I paid money for the game (I did), and not about whether or not Stardock should provide support.

anyway, witha name like Epiclulz and an aperent inabillity to make an argument a kindergarden teatcher would accept. I'm faiirly confident this is either a troll (lock post) a person so retarded that he should be locked up(just ban him) or a republican with plans to restore bush to power(shoot him)

This does not disprove anything I've posted here.

It's plenty consequence. If you buy a stereo at Wal-Mart, don't expect to be able to return it to Best Buy for a refund.

You, too, are changing the subject. In conclusion, it is obvious that I cannot be free-loading.

You mean those ad-filled sites where every other page screams "PREMIUM MEMBERSHIP AVAILABLE!" and has hour-long waits in a queue before downloading the file?

They charge plenty of money - and if they don't, they fill the page with ads.

Nothing is truly free.

So in other words they don't charge publishers anything.

Yeah - by offering one or two patches, then shutting down development altogether. Many of my games, even the fairly recent ones, are no longer being updated, even with still known bugs. Stardock's games are a notable exception to this rule, it seems.

So? That has nothing to do with the fact that the cost of providing unrestricted patches is negligible.

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How much did you pay stardok......................................................

if that is 0, then why should they support you???????

/facepalm

You're changing the subject. This is about whether or not I paid money for the game (I did), and not about whether or not Stardock should provide support.

can i call him stupied/retarded now?

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Quoting epiclulz,

reply 15

I am paying money and thus not free-loading. Where the money ends up is of no consequence.

Actually it is. A transaction is legal only if it is between a customer and a licensed reseller. And unless your friend went and bought a license from Stardock/Calypso, I don't think he's legally able to sell you his game. Stardock/Ironclad offers customer support. It means it doesn't have to offer support to you.

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I am paying money and thus not free-loading. Where the money ends up is of no consequence.

Where the money ends up matters greatly. The one that got the money in the end is the one who has to support the buyer. Since I paid SD some money, does this mean that SD must support me in my use of Adobe Photoshop?

For the billionth time: this is rare. This is the exception. This is not the norm.

Whether it is the norm or rarity, that is the rule here. So adapt, or get out.

You're changing the subject. This is about whether or not I paid money for the game (I did), and not about whether or not Stardock should provide support.

No, you are changing the subject. You should go read your own thread. You say you paid for the game second hand, and you are asking for support from SD/IC.

Otherwise, what exactly are you asking for here? You want to unlock serials from accounts (see your opening post) so that you can get support right?

The fact is - and I say so again:

1) You want to play this game - otherwise, why are you here complaining so much?

2) But you want to play this game with all the frills, support etc on the cheap (or free), and you can't.

Just leave. You are not getting what you want because it is against policy/rules, and it is unfair to those of us who do follow the rules. I think your questions have been answered clearly already. If you continue to stay here and give one-liner replies with no details or substance, I think it is very safe to call you trolling.

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