Daikaze

Join Date 02/2008

[QoT] Thoughts on the Queen

Queen of Thorns is a decent Demigod, but I feel she is lacking. I might be jumping the gun here, but, I think she needs a few adjustments.

Compost: This ability should probably improve Ground Spikes rather than Uproot, and it'd be nice if it provided a small amount of health or mana. Overall this ability just needs to do more.
Mulch: I'm not sure the damage dealing aspect is working... if it is then the radius needs to be larger.
Shamblers: I think they are too costly for their purpose. They don't get any special abilities later on, and they really just wind up getting mulched in the end.
Open/Close: "Close" provides extra armor, but "Open" provides nothing. I think there should be a trade off between forms besides abilities.
Entourage: This ability isn't bad, but it doesn't really buff the Shamblers enough.
Spike Wave: It costs more than Ground Spikes and only slows targets... it does a little more damage, but overall it seems too costly for what it does.
Mana and Costs: Overall the major issue with QoT is the cost of abilities. Everything costs so much that you need to stack +mana regen items or buy mana potions.

Basically, I feel that her defensive capability is pretty good, but her offensive capabability needs some improvement. I understand that she is an AOE type of character, but she needs to compete with players more than creeps.

Anyway, those are my thoughts so far. I've played QoT the most, and I've played Lord Erebus quite a bit too. I've done some testing with the other Demigods and various builds with level 20 QoT. Oak and Lord Erebus get their minions for killing enemies while QoT and Sedna need to waste excessive amounts of mana for theirs. Lord Erebus and Oak seem better off with thier way of gathering minions.

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Her weakness is her mana costs, but I agree that's it a bit off for what the abilities do. Mulch's damage does work, it's a very tiny range around the mulched shambler though. The aoe should be much larger.

Shamblers should be changed, but instead of cheapened they should be improved otherwise it will be too easy to keep mulch ready shamblers up. Instead give them use until they finally get mulched. Open changes her attack to a direct damage while close makes her do aoe damage, if I recall, since you didn't note that.

Mostly, I think she is lacking in her minion and minion abilities, I don't mind mana costs *too* much. Also, as far as I noticed, her minions can't attack while moving and have a small delay before they start attacking which is not fun.

I'd say extend the shambler range to that of the ranged idol minions (make entourage increase range and attack speed?), make compost boost Ground Spikes as suggested, and make "Open" increase her movement speed, attack speed, and damage as close increases mp and hp regen plus grants armor.

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Open changes her attack to a direct damage while close makes her do aoe damage, if I recall, since you didn't note that.

That actually means that "Open" is worse than I thought. The damage output was the same for both "Open" and "Closed" so if "Closed" does AOE and the same damage then "Open" is getting the short end.

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Open/Close: "Close" provides extra armor, but "Open" provides nothing. I think there should be a trade off between forms besides abilities.

I agree, there's something wrong here. We've got 2 stances with 2 types of spells, "close" give us defensive spells and "open" give us offensive spells. I don't understand why "open" shouldn't give us more firepower, the result is that if you have a super minion build you don't have to change form. Giving the "open" stance more love is badly needed IMO.

Also could you create an inner skill slot on the UI for the DGs that begin with a skill, that would liberate one slot for the two stances, so 2 slots that could expand the possibilities in the future.

And about the create shamblers spell, I find it a bit boring to click multiple times to create all you army. Each time you create shamblers, all of them should come together, right from the first level of spell.

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you army. Each time you create shamblers, all of them should come together, right from the first level of spell.

I think the damage spells do balance it out quite a bit, as I don't find myself turtling in closed because of the damage of the 2 Nukes from open >_>b

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I'd like to see the +gold ability at the end of Entourage replaced with something that gives the minions an ability (like Sedna's Yetis). By that level I just don't feel as much of a need for that extra boost in money.

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Compost: This is fine. No matter if you go the minions route or not, everyone using this character should be forced to use uproot. It damages towers outside of their range. Though I would argue your points are best spent somewhere else. But for the uproot/shambler folk, this ability should definitely be used

Mulch/Shamblers: Fine how they are if you believe minions are worthwhile.

Open/Close: Open has all her good abilities, close has shield and +10 m/sec regen, with a small boost to hp regen, armor and aoe damage. You should be closed while you are picking at creeps, open to take out players

Spike Wave: Key skill for taking out players. She doesn't have stun, she has this. It slows them down enough so you can keep picking at them while they run away. This combined with spikes drops their armor to 0 or close to, giving you full damage on your ranged attacks.

This character is, as is, overly powerful. The ability to take out waves of creeps with 1 ability, lvl 1 bramble shield gives 700 free health, she has a slow and a way to remove your opponents armor.. not even taking into account she has the ability to take out towers, while being out of the tower's damage range. What more do you want, a big hat? Sure she wants mana items. The +1040 mana +10 m/sec regen helm is her key item. you get that and you are set. Get her the boots if you wanna have even more of an advantage with her range and spike wave. Only takes a few kills to get her items and then you can pump all your gold into the citadel.

if you play her and use minions, you are on your own.

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She is a capable PVE Demigod, but she really doesn't perform in the "Slaughter" map mode as she isn't really designed to fight other Demigods. I'm still trying out various builds, so I'll see if I can find something satisfying.

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She loses her luster towards end game...even with top tier items. Her mana costs are quite high, which requires money to be spent on mana pool boosting items...

It's really hard to consider her level with some of the other gods, considering they get so much stronger with items...and she's kinda models the "mage" in a sense. She is only as good as her spells.

I built her with the shield + AOE Spikes + her other nuke that does damage in a line...I quickly bought the 8000 ring from the artifact shop that allowed me another 500 damage AOE nuke.

Towards the time I got that and for the next little while I was quite powerful...killing gods and waves in short seconds.

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the big issue as i see it is that Bramble Shield is her best spell and its very helpful (almost necessary) to be able to cast it at a moment's notice to save yourself or an ally from a gank attempt. this means its very hard to play in Open mode. you're almost always cruising around Closed.

this kind of relegates Open to being a short duration "siege mode". you'll open up to fire off ground spikes or uproot a tower and then close up again right away. it makes it very hard to player the Queen as a nuker class because Open mode is so generally weak and gives up both your best spell (Bramble Shield) and your good passive benefits (armor, regen, aoe basic attacks).

i have no problem with Open being intended as a short duration Siege Mode. if thats how its gonna be though it should probably gain some kind of passive benefit to facilitate its purpose. as it is, it just has nothing so you really never want to be Open any longer than you have to.

i'd be very enthusiastic to see a passive mana regen benefit to Open mode. also maybe a range increase for the basic attack.

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I've been trying new builds with a lot of success. She certainly isn't effective in "Slaughter" maps but she does play the support role rather well.

I don't use her minions, at all; I just don't think they are useful enough.

So, my views have changed slightly from the original post:

Compost: I still think this should boost her weapon damage or provide health/mana (regen?).
Mulch: It's good for healing, but the damage radius is useless considering Shamblers are ranged attackers in the first place.
Shamblers: These are still too costly for their lack of potential. Maybe they are good with proper gear, I just don't use them anymore.
Open/Close: "Open" should boost weapon damage.
Entourage: This doesn't do enough for the Shamblers. Should probably boost their damage more, and the last skill in this line should give them an ability, not a gold boost.
Spike Wave: Meh, I think it's fine as is now after extensive use.
Mana and Costs: With proper equipment it's fine.

Compost is the one I want improved the most... but I am a little biased.

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Uhhh all heroes except sedna have a very powerful AoE.

Actually the best part about her AoE is the great armor reduction that can give you like 30% more damage from all attacks.

Also after that one guy said

Mulch: It's good for healing, but the damage radius is useless considering Shamblers are ranged attackers in the first place.

I decided I shouldn't bother reading the rest of his post.

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there's no problem getting a shambler to stand next an enemy so you can mulch it, just work on your micro a little bit.

the bigger problem is that mulch only HEALS at the start of its animation. it doesn't deal any DAMAGE until the end of the animation, like 1 second after you cast it. makes it hard to line up a good shot with it. not sure how i feel about this feature. makes it a bit more balanced i guess. instant shambler bombs would be a bit ridiculous considering they also heal for a very large amount.

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Quoting innociv,

reply 11

Uhhh all heroes except sedna have a very powerful AoE.

I was referring to the fact that one of her strengths, in her profile, is listed as AOE Damage.

Quoting innociv,

reply 11

Also after that one guy said

Mulch: It's good for healing, but the damage radius is useless considering Shamblers are ranged attackers in the first place.

I decided I shouldn't bother reading the rest of his post.

Why not?

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Why not?

Because it's one of the best abilities. You can order your shamblers to move close to the enemy. Not everything should be easy. This is what seperates the noobs from the good players.

the bigger problem is that mulch only HEALS at the start of its animation. it doesn't deal any DAMAGE until the end of the animation,

I don't think this is a problem. Makes them ahrder to use offensively but can still save your ass when you need.

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Mulch is overrated. The healing aspect is worthless, as bramble shield gets the same result (a little less poweful) and can be used on allies (you are ranged and if you know what you are doing you won't take much damage, this is mostly for your allies). And the AOE damage is unattractive, at best. 750 point aoe is going to kill what exactly? Creeps. Whooop deee dooooooooooo.

I realize you may find some moron player with low health waiting to get bombed by shamblers, but if you play to the lowest common denominator, you become them.

Daikaze: I've totally changed my mind on this character. You've posted in Rain's post about minions not giving exp gold. The game is broken and while they leave it that way, QoT is as powerful as the tiger chick. This game is all about minions, and the queen's minions are arguably the best in the game. Shamblers to 3 (summon 2, max 4), max compost, max entourage, max moral, max bramble shield. Pick up some totems and make sure you get one or two items to boost minion anything. You'll end up with 10 guys that have about 2.4k health each. if you do the math you'll be getting a free 800 dps that can be resummoned again and again. No assassin can touch these people, it's insane.

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