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Ceylin
Ceylin
Join Date 01/2006
+2

Who'd have thought low DRM would punish legal users?

April 16, 2009 4:19:57 PM from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

First off I want to say that I own most of Stardocks games, and I love them as a company.  They respond with actual specific facts when they post problems, and have very good customer support.  I also enjoy their games, and their outlook on the gaming industry.  In particular, I think their Gamer's Bill of Rights, is a very good thing.

One of the main points it makes is that some of the draconian DRM that games are employing can severely punish people for legally buying the games.  Things like limited number of installations, cd-keys that you cannot lose, and other various account securities.  I can speak from experience, when I tried to install a legal copy of Maya on a laboratory computer, and it took many hours for it to work (legally), when I knew that a pirated, cracked version would install and work in a matter of minutes.

So I was on board, thinking that low DRM is great for us legal users.  A pirated sale isn't necessarily a lost sale, so who cares if they pirate.  Then the past few days happened and I realized something.  For the multiplayer experience, low DRM **can** hurt the legal customers.  Here we were trying to play the game, and the other 100,000 bastards were denying our service with illegal copies.  I wouldn't have imagined that their actions could also affect us, it's a shame.  Now the pirates *are* causing lost sales; they're causing people to be turned away from a great game.

Anyway, I just wanted to vent a little bit.  I'm a little disillusioned about the prospect of this sort of business plan holding up. 

Though I'm also curious as to what could be done with an Impluse account that you'd have to log into and verify your install / registration *IF* you want to play a multiplayer game.  (I"m curious as to how these pirates are logging in at all).

 

 

 

demigod
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Ceylin
Mellowe
Join Date 02/2008
+41
Reply #1 April 16, 2009 4:23:45 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

My question is, if the game requires a serial # to play online, how are these pirates getting online to crowd out the servers?

Does the game check for a valid serial after logging in to the service? Are database entries for accounts created prior to checking the validity of the serial number? If so, that's not a very smart implementation, but I'm sure that you already know and are working to fix it, eh?

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Ceylin
Unknown924
Join Date 03/2006
+12
Reply #2 April 16, 2009 4:42:48 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I think the problem is that Demigod does a check for updates when it is launched, as it checks the same server used to play the result is pirates having a negative effect on legal users.  The pirates can't play online, put together all the small checks they make add up.

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Ceylin
kryo
Join Date 05/2003
+458 sdemployee
Reply #3 April 16, 2009 4:57:10 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

If it had DRM it would have been cracked anyway, since Gamestop's early release gave them a four-day lead over the intended release.

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Ceylin
Lucifon
Join Date 04/2009
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Reply #4 April 16, 2009 4:58:05 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Do they have a crack to skip the key requirement or something?

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Ceylin
Telefrog
Join Date 12/2004
+1
Reply #5 April 16, 2009 5:05:43 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting Lucifon,
reply 4
Do they have a crack to skip the key requirement or something?

Strictly speaking, there's no "key" at all. The problem is that the volume of pirated copies that hit the initial server to authenticate the logins was overwhelming the system. Even the tiny amount of time it took for the server to say "Hey, this copy isn't legit. You don't get a patch. Go away." was still too much when 140,000 people were hitting it at once.

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Ceylin
kryo
Join Date 05/2003
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Reply #6 April 16, 2009 5:08:46 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

No. However there are some server calls that happen even if you're not logged into multiplayer, and as I understand it those calls from the 120,000 pirates were bringing the gateway server that everything went through to its knees.

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Ceylin
Lucifon
Join Date 04/2009
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Reply #7 April 16, 2009 5:11:36 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Ohh I see. So when the servers are sorted the pirates wont be able to get online, am I right in saying that? Good sign indeed.

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Ceylin
Ceylin
Join Date 01/2006
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Reply #8 April 16, 2009 5:20:18 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

So it was just the few checks before the multiplayer even engages that was causing the slow downs?  Does this mean pirated copies don't get into the standard multiplayer?  (they do things like hamachi?)

 

 

 

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Ceylin
Peace Phoenix
Join Date 01/2004
+25
Reply #9 April 16, 2009 5:20:41 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

No. However there are some server calls that happen even if you're not logged into multiplayer, and as I understand it those calls from the 120,000 pirates were bringing the gateway server that everything went through to its knees.

sadly, as the pirated copies won't be updated and since they are using the same code than legit retail copies, it will be hard to remove the pirate calls without annoying the legit customer with their brand new, non updated copy.

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Ceylin
Ceylin
Join Date 01/2006
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Reply #10 April 16, 2009 5:27:26 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Well I know they've since changed servers for the legal users.  So the pirates are making calls to an old one thats getting hammered, while we talk with a better one

 

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Ceylin
Zombie_Lincoln
Join Date 03/2009
0
Reply #11 April 16, 2009 5:27:26 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

It's astounding how Gamestop totally fucked over the release of this game. I can't even wrap my head around it properly.

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Ceylin
Zombie_Lincoln
Join Date 03/2009
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Reply #12 April 16, 2009 5:30:19 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting Ceylin,
reply 10
Well I know they've since changed servers for the legal users.  So the pirates are making calls to an old one thats getting hammered, while we talk with a better one
 

It would be cool if it were that simple, but anyone with a legit bought copy could upload the updated code to any torrent site. It really sucks how legit users got shafted, I almost wish it came with a Steam-like DRM since this is happening, because I'm always connected to the internet anyways.

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Ceylin
CallTheVoid
Join Date 04/2009
+23
Reply #13 April 16, 2009 5:30:27 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

To the original poster, I agree with you completly! DRM, copy protections, etc, any kind of limitation on a purchased product is really aggrevating, and is so much, at some point you may just go out and pirate a copy anyways (even if you own a legit copy) just so you do not have to deal with it.

Since the release of Spore, which used some really horrid DRM, I have become more self-aware on purchases. Bad DRM will completely turn me away from a game now and instead, make it pirate it just to smite the company for using such bad business practices.

I will admit, I pirated Demigods before it came out... but ONLY to try the game.  I have been burned on to many PC games, which have had no demo's, and unlike console systems, you often do not get to try before you buy. However, I also went out and bought this game on release day. Stardock did a great job, and their company seems to have a good business practice. Plus, this game is worth it!

Pirating is fine, IMO, to an extent... if you enjoy the game and plan on playing it, then stop being a cheap bastard and go buy it!! Support Stardock so one day they can rise up and squash crap companies like EA, who milks the consumer on their mediocre products.

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Ceylin
Mellowe
Join Date 02/2008
+41
Reply #14 April 16, 2009 5:35:06 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

Quoting Peace Phoenix,
reply 9

No. However there are some server calls that happen even if you're not logged into multiplayer, and as I understand it those calls from the 120,000 pirates were bringing the gateway server that everything went through to its knees.


sadly, as the pirated copies won't be updated and since they are using the same code than legit retail copies, it will be hard to remove the pirate calls without annoying the legit customer with their brand new, non updated copy.

I assume that this can be resolved without changing the client. This is a server infrastructure issue so it can probably be resolved on Stardock's end. Example: they can change their setup so v1.00 hits a different gateway and a different server (move the multiplayer resources to a different network). Thus, all new players and pirated copies would be hitting an isolated network when connecting to acquire the first patch and communicate with the Impulse Reactor network, saving the match-making and other multiplayer resources from the load.

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Ceylin
Peace Phoenix
Join Date 01/2004
+25
Reply #15 April 16, 2009 5:35:16 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

It's astounding how Gamestop totally fucked over the release of this game.

Well,  things would have surely been different if the game checks for update after having choosen the Internet multiplayer setting and an account ...

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Ceylin
Coma
Join Date 04/2009
+5
Reply #16 April 16, 2009 5:37:33 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

It's not because there's no DRM or whatever. It was just an oversight on their part. The update check is (was) done when you first start the game, rather than when you go to play multiplayer. So tons of pirates open their game, the servers are hammered.

 

Quoting Peace Phoenix,
reply 9

sadly, as the pirated copies won't be updated and since they are using the same code than legit retail copies, it will be hard to remove the pirate calls without annoying the legit customer with their brand new, non updated copy.

Nah, since you only need the newest version if you want to play multiplayer, and if you want to play multiplayer, you need Impulse anyway which will update your game.

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Ceylin
Sevenix
Join Date 04/2008
+16
Reply #17 April 16, 2009 5:41:24 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Which was changed with the latest patch Peace Phoenix, Too bad the pirates doesnt have it

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Ceylin
Peace Phoenix
Join Date 01/2004
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Reply #18 April 16, 2009 5:41:27 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

It was just an oversight on their part.

Well, sometimes a thing that looks like a good idea on paper or with a limited poll pf personn (like the various betas) turns into a nightmare when confronted to reality. Devil is really in details

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Peace Phoenix
Join Date 01/2004
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Reply #19 April 16, 2009 5:42:43 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Which was changed with the latest patch Peace Phoenix

I know, but that doesn't apply to pirated copies, which are thoses hammering the servers

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Ceylin
ATMMachine
Join Date 04/2009
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Reply #20 April 16, 2009 5:44:24 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Internet Multiplayer is impossible now, its time to start changing ip's and ports for the legit users so we stop sharing with them.

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Ceylin
Red Arremer
Join Date 11/2005
+1
Reply #21 April 16, 2009 5:53:38 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

The game would have still been pirated regardless of drm. Even games with intrusive drm like starforce and securom usually have day 0 cracks.

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