AnnihilatorX

Join Date 03/2004

DG kill gold drop and level balancing

Runaway spiral of team dynamics

I think currently the game mechanics is a bit unstable in the regards that the winning team continue to win and the losing team continue to lose in death spiral fashion. This is due to the fact that, when there are skill difference between DGs of opposing team, the higher skill players can continue to level up and reap huge gold rewards by repeatingly kill lower level DGs very easily (due to better equipment and higher level). The monetary amount and experience gained does not drop with level difference. With the increasing gold rushing in, your DG is better equiped, your citadel is better equiped, you kill enemy DG easier; in the end this come to a runaway spiral that makes a slightly losing team harder and harder to regain dominance.

In addition, there is no reward in killing an enemgy DG that is 5 levels higher than you, you always end up running away from a high level DG and this isn't fun for both players.

I propose the gold and perhaps experience gained has a bonus or penalty base on the difference between your DG and enemy DG. For example, if your DG is 2 levels higher than your enemy DG, you gain 200 less gold than base level, 400 less for 3 levels, 600 for 4 levels so on and the minimum gold gained will never drop below 400. Converselt, if your DG is 2 levels lower than your enemy's, you get 200 more gold than the base level and so on.

The formula is (-n+1) * 200 where n is level of opponent DG - level of your DG.

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I agree completely. Getting First Blood leads to a positive feedback loop of demigod killing/increasing power. Furthermore demigods who don't get kills but instead excel at other roles (Rook, Sedna, QoT) lag behind in power. There should be diminishing returns to beating up on lower-level demigods and kills should be less heavily rewarded generally so the anti-building/support demigods can maintain relative strength.

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Yeah, sort of signed. Dminishing returns is both a good way, but also a horrible way of balancing. It's a big punishment, especially if it's 2v2. IF there should be diminishing returns on kill-gold, it should be a slow declination. I do agree that first blood does yield way too much. Maybe start the monetary kill-award a little lower? 1000+ is a lot at level 1

And it only escalates from there to about 2000.

Start it off at 500, and maybe 250 extra gold for first blood. That's just one more potion. That'd be ok.

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The game is team based. Why not have kills benefit the whole team? That way, Sedna can stay back and support while Oak mops up in front, and both demigods benefit from the same kills.

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1) Theres gold rewards for assists.

This is due to the fact that, when there are skill difference between DGs of opposing team, the higher skill players

That quote is the /thread. If one team sucks, and the other team sucks, they lose. Don't over-compensate for a lack of skill by blaming the game mechanics.

At any rate, the amount of gold that creeps drop is horrendous. Keep the kill gold the same, and stop trying to hold the crappy players hand when they're too inept to realize that rushing and dying first has a tendency to lead to a loss. The LAST thing we need are more mechanics to further slow the game down, and give crap players even more chances to make a come back then there already are.

/thread

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Your.. sentiment isn't exactly true.

Just TODAY I had a game where the enemy destroyed all our fortresses, all our towers, and they had ALL their towers and fortresses still alive. They had a slight level advantage, they had about 50% more kills.

We won at the 28minute mark.

Yes yesturday.. Look here http://forums.demigodthegame.com/348776

They have like 40% our level. Actually when we started to push, we where level 5-7 when they where level 10-12. Almost DOUBLE our levels, and we didn't really have mnay kills up until that point.

People are a little overzealous with saying its' just about kills. There is a lot of depth and strategy to this game. Alot of things which.. well I don't really fele like sharing, because I like winning 95% of games. But I always name my games something like "#v# good players only" or "#v# pros only" so it's not like i'm trying to noobstomp, just lots of people know much less about the game than they think they do, and think they can hit some skill chain combo to win.

That all said, someone got those levels from playing better. I do think the reward needs curbed. I think getting 1000-1500 gold for a kill early onis too much. A 300-1000 gold reward(300 for killing a lvl1, 1000 for higher levels), then some additional bonuses(like a lot more gold for killing someone on a killing streak) would be nice. I think teh most you get now is 2k? It's something high.

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I won a game yesterday 2v2 in a pantheon. Was fortress. We completely lost the early game, 0-3 and 2-5. We managed to keep farming in the mid game and held our fortresses and were higher in level due to their over-aggression and our disciplined farming and retreating. We eventually made a quick switch to destroy a fort. They tried to take ours and we started racking up kills.

Early game kills do not make it impossible to come back when you know how to play.

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Just a short while ago, 2v2. I started really badly, and the enemy got to level 4 while I was still level 1, and my ally, without my help, ended up only being level 2. However, we ended up slowly gaining ground, although it cost us most of our towers. In the end, we just held our ground, and kept taking the right flags, and slowly managed to overpower them, ending up higher levels. By the end, we captured all of their portals and sicked giants in their base.

Although early kills don't make a game impossible to win (my Erebus build typically starts out quite weak, and doesn't start to turn around until around level 6), they still need to make it a bit balanced for teams that get the short end in the beginning. I have to agree with adding increased gold and experience payout when you kill a higher level demigod.

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they still need to make it a bit balanced for teams that get the short end in the beginning.

But there isn't a balance there. If someone gets more kills, accrues more gold, more EXP, and overal superor game play, it should be imbalanced. In an extreme form, that's like asking for level 1s to be able to fight level 20s. In a less extreme argument, you can't just fuck up in the beginning and expect the game to be modified so you have an equal advantage when in reality you dont.

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I will support the idea of giving more gold to the killer (and all assists) when you drop someone on a killing streak, if only to make that player a little more careful with their life.

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Quoting Extacide,

reply 8

they still need to make it a bit balanced for teams that get the short end in the beginning.

But there isn't a balance there. If someone gets more kills, accrues more gold, more EXP, and overal superor game play, it should be imbalanced. In an extreme form, that's like asking for level 1s to be able to fight level 20s. In a less extreme argument, you can't just fuck up in the beginning and expect the game to be modified so you have an equal advantage when in reality you dont.

Fine then, at least give the losing side a surrender option then. Slaughterfests aren't very fun for either side. I'd rather have my enemy concede defeat in a boring killfest and move onto an actually exciting battle then have to throw them out like trash for another 15-20 minutes.

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I agree with the surrender concept and the fact that this game is balanced for the winner. Diminishing returns on kills and kill gold please so 1 player can't be farmed.

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there should be a way to surrender, but First blood doesn't mean you win or lose. Also the team that is controling the map, killing the enemy should have a advantage. the losing team needs to learn how to adept.

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Also the team that is controling the map, killing the enemy should have a advantage.

Uh, no... different modes need different tactics. i don't even need to kill the enemy to win (unless its slaughter)

Here's the result of a game against the AI:

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Bad players will always be bad. Doesn't matter how much advantage you give them. If the devs decides to go to the nerfs path all they end up is another RTS game without any players.

LEARN HOW TO PLAY THE GAME before calling for nerfs.

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What you are asking for is rubberbanding.

That is one of the single worst design choices you can make in a game...

If you're worried about one player being farmed or whatever, it's up to the player who is in that position to not get killed and adapt. There's no reason why you would make lesser skilled players suck less by lessening the rewards of the winner.

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facepalm at using AI games for balance examples. :/

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I agree, the gold reward for killing Demigods needs serious work, and something along the lines of OP's formula would be the way to change it.

Edit: Overall decrease in the gold for kills should be done as well in my opinion.

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I wont say NERF yet, but I really feel the huge gold reward for killing DGs throws the game out of whack.

If one person on the team makes a few bad choices early on and dies say...4 times before level 8 to one person, that person will be much more powerful (obviously).

My only problem is how much MORE powerful they are. Its really fun when your on the winning side of course, but it just sets the stage for a very unfun game for the losing team from what I've noticed.

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I wont say NERF yet, but I really feel the huge gold reward for killing DGs throws the game out of whack.

Explain.

If one person on the team makes a few bad choices early on and dies say

If they were just mistakes, the person can easily make up for it if he's a better player. If he sucks, then thats the nail in the coffin, as it should be.

4 times before level 8 to one person, that person will be much more powerful (obviously).

Thats one level and 4k gold (rough estimates). That is hardly enough of a factor to warrant a completely unbeatable advantage.

but it just sets the stage for a very unfun game for the losing team from what I've noticed.

I find losing to be fun. It's why I play this game. [/sarcasm]

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Quoting innociv,

reply 16

facepalm at using AI games for balance examples. :/

Haha, /signed

For the record, this is the first game I ALSO love to lose, because I can see why I lost. It's all right there in front of you. You didn't choose to upgrade income at the base, or you didn't go all out on Sedna. Whatever...you always know what you did wrong when you lose, so you know how to play it differently next time

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Quoting Extacide,

reply 19

I wont say NERF yet, but I really feel the huge gold reward for killing DGs throws the game out of whack.

Explain.

If one person on the team makes a few bad choices early on and dies say

If they were just mistakes, the person can easily make up for it if he's a better player. If he sucks, then thats the nail in the coffin, as it should be.

4 times before level 8 to one person, that person will be much more powerful (obviously).

Thats one level and 4k gold (rough estimates). That is hardly enough of a factor to warrant a completely unbeatable advantage.

but it just sets the stage for a very unfun game for the losing team from what I've noticed.

I find losing to be fun. It's why I play this game. [/sarcasm]

A game doesnt have to be FUN losing. It needs to not be so unfun that it pushes people away from playing.

And 4k gold can make a HUGE difference early on. My friend and I playing had a few lucky kills in the begining of the game and due to us getting the gold for those kills let us steamroll them.

If you don't agree, it's fine. I just think the gold is way out of wack, but I dont think it should be changed for quite a while. It did just come out.

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It needs to not be so unfun that it pushes people away from playing.

I truly sympathize with players who suck at this game and then alt+f4 when they can't put two and two together because they lose. So it goes back to putting blame onto the game itself for incompetence.

And 4k gold can make a HUGE difference early on

Against crappy players, yes. Against even players, you need to play a little better. Against better players, you lost from the start. It's a pretty vicious cycle. I have come to find it rather difficult to understand myself.

If you don't agree, it's fine.

I wouldn't be such a dick if every justification for this suggestion wasn't code-word for, 'players suck and don't know how to fight back so we should punish the winning team for playing good.' I have, NEVER had this happen to me. Mainly because I haven't fought many good teams yet, and because when I've been in this situation, I thought it threw well enough to know how to come back. When the team's setup and strategy is overly superior and I can't come back, I know I lost and I think about what I could have done to prevent it.

Instead, people go straight to the forums and demand that it's a fault of the game.

but I dont think it should be changed for quite a while. It did just come out.

Or maybe because you and I both haven't been playing this game long enough to know whether or not it should be changed at all. Touche?

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Lol, I'm not going through each of your points again.

And no, 4k makes a difference regardless, if you don't think so then you need to play more.

And I do agree your last 'point' is pretty much saying exactly what I said again and adding touche at the end.

Regardless, do your thing, I even added nice little spaces for you to crop out.

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Lol, I'm not going through each of your points again.

And no, 4k makes a difference regardless, if you don't think so then you need to play more.

Mhm.

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Myep

Edit: Alright, to be fair, that was pretty retarded of me

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