Eternal_Silence

Join Date 04/2009

Erebus balance discussion

I hate to complain and whine but I've got this nagging feeling there's something not right with Erebus. As a disclaimer, I will state that I've played Rook, then Regulus, then Oak almost exclusively and my perspective is biased from the view of using those three heroes. However, I'm also taking into account various team-mates using various DG's vs. Erebus.

I don't play Erebus and I don't wish to (although I may start just to learn how he works). As an archetype, he just doesn't appeal to me.

My premise is that I think Erebus is overpowered, but only in the right hands. I've seen some very bad Erebus players and when played badly there's nothing too scary about him. However, when played well he seems to be out of the league of any other Demigod in the game.

"But, this game is about SKILL and any DG is overpowered in a skilled player's hands," people might say. My response is yes and no. While it's true that all the DG's will shine in the hands of a skilled player, Erebus is a step beyond.

Every class has a weakness or a counter:

Rooks are slow, a healing Sedna doesn't do alot of damage, Regulus can't really heal himself, after a while QoT's shield doesn't scale, Oak is kind of weak early, mediocre midgame, UCB can be countered by healing/health regen thru his dot, and so on.

However, in my experience, it doesn't seem like Erebus has a counter or an inherent weakness. He doesn't seem to be mana deprived, squishy, slow, or ineffective where you can just ignore him. If things don't go his way he can just mist or port out of harm's way.

"But Erebus is not that great vs. buildings early on". If that's his balance, give me a break. Yes, taking buildings down is important but the most important aspects of the game are hero kills (because of the gold factor) and map control (because of the War Score). If you have lots of kills and a good war score, then buildings become a minor nuisance vs. a geared out/levelled up hero that is backed up by pults and giants.

Is this a whine post? Maybe. Pardon me if it is.

However, one of two things is true. Either Erebus is balanced and I'm whining. This means he has vulnerabilities and weaknesses that I just don't know about. Enlighten me. Or, my complaints are well warranted. Balance him.

"Well, Eternal, you must suck". Maybe, who knows. However, it's not me that's usually dying and feeding the Erebus. It's my team mates. "Well, then your team mates suck." The thing is they don't seem to suck as much when an Erebus is not around. Once that Erebus has four or five farm kills under his belt, he's got enough gold to start leveraging his seemingly overpoweredness even more.

"Well what do you want?"

First, if Erebus is balanced and has some as of yet untold weaknesses, enlighten me. I'd love to be able just play this game knowing that every DG has weaknesses and vulnerabilities. I've scoured the "what do I do vs. Erebus" threads and I've not yet found one useable or reliable strategy or tactic. The advice basically amounts to "run away, if you can" and "2v1" the Erebus (like that's somehow reasonable).

Second, if Erebus is not balanced then I want the Devs to take a good look at him and figure out how to bring him back to the realm of reasonable balance. How, they do that, I don't care. I just want to know that my team mates are not fodder for his piggy bank or that I have to wait until level 15 to square off on him.

"QQ more noob, blah blah".

Yeah, I'm crying, hollering, whining, carping, complaining, kvetching, grumbling, and griping. But that doesn't change what I see and what I see is that game after game a well played Erebus is the most dominating hero in the game by far.

Bottom line: I want to just add my voice to the concern over the balance of this particular hero. If I am wrong, teach me. I'd love to improve my game. However, if I'm right I just want the Devs to know that there is some concern out here.

Once these connectivity and MP issues are mapped out, they need to revisit balance.

Edit ============

Frogboy:

"Well, we have on deck another update for tomorrow fresh from GPG:

· Lord Erebus: Bite's Mana Cost increased, Damage decreased, Armor Reduction decreased"

===============

I'm glad to know I'm not smoking crack.

demigod

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Quoting ,

quoting post

However, one of two things is true. Either Erebus is balanced and I'm whining. This means he has vulnerabilities and weaknesses that I just don't know about. Enlighten me.

As you wish, heres some enlightenment; his weakness is his low dmg output, he doesnt have any real damage dealers, bite is his only burst dmg skill and it does so-so dmg, and can only damage units, not buildings. He is crap against all buildings, and will loose to DGS that can outburst his dmg in a short while, before he have the time to get multible bites off. He wins in a battle of attrition, because he has great survivability, and this is his strength (not as great as sedna, but close), as well as his varied and versatile moveset.

You should really try to play him yourself to get a better understanding of his weaknesses. Because you will die with him, no matter how good you think he is. There are equally skilled oaks, rooks and sednas out there by the boatload right now, just waiting to feast on some Erebus bones!

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Quoting NeoVain,

reply 1

This, i've only ever had a problem against erebus once. And that was when I had just picked the character I wanted to play, and was seeing what Oak's skills were like. I got absolutely trashed, now I have my build and know my playstyle. I've not had a problem since.

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Quoting NeoVain,

reply 1

As you wish, his weakness is his low dmg output, he doesnt have any real damage dealers, bite is his only burst dmg skill and it does so-so dmg, and can only damage units, not buildings. He is crap against all buildings, and will loose to DGS that can outburst his mdg.. He has great survivability, sure, and this is his strength(not as great as sedna, but close), as well as his varied and versatile moveset.

That just doesn't hew to the facts. If Erebus didn't "have any real damage" he wouldn't be a hero killer. However, he is a major hero killer almost every game I see him.

I will grant you, he doesn't dps like a late game Reg angel build, but no one does. However, he does enough damage to be incredibly effective.

And again, you restated some "facts" but you didn't really suggest a method to actually counter him other than "burst him down before he bursts you" (paraphrasing). But then you go on to say he has "great survivability". Well, don't you think that his "great survivability" kind of negates the "burst him down" statement? It does to me.

And again, the "weakness vs. buildings" argument doesn't hold water because buildings don't win the game they only serve to slow the advance of the enemy. Hero kills and map control wins games because they lead to better items and better citadel and reinforcement upgrades.

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This is something I'm considering doing. Perhaps tonight. I'm sure I will go thru a few bad games learning the character and so I'll just have to see if I can employ what I am currently facing.

As for there are "equally skilled Oaks, Rooks, and Sednas..." Yeah, that's kind of obvious. Of course there are. But that's the point, if 2 players are equally skilled but the guy using the Erebus has the advantage then it's a matter of class design not skill. That's the whole basis of my complaint.

Now if you are really saying "equally skilled Oaks, Rooks, and Sedna players are just as effective as an Erebus player" then I'm going to resort to the "smell test" and "gut check" and ask myself who do I really fear facing when I see my opponents queue up. And again, I'd have to say that no matter how good that rook is, I know that at some point I'm going to be able to wear him down or that if I get low on health I can retreat. Or no matter how good that Sedna is and that even though I can't kill her, she can't kill me. Or no matter how good that Oak is, eventually his shield will be on cooldown and I will press my advantage and force him off the flag or blow up his minions and reinforcements with AOE and once he's alone he's mine. When I see the Erebus chewing up my team, what can I really say? Outrun him? no. Outlast him? no. Burst him down? no. Whittle him? no.

But like you say, I should play him for a while and see.

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I agree with everything above, including the OP. Erebus is seemingly so powerful because he has the best escapability in the game. He might have low damage output and be a bit squishy, but he also has minions, has bite to gain health, and can mass stun, essentially "blink" and become invunerable for a realitively low mana cost (Mist).

If I had to gander which hero is most OP (in the right hands), I would say Erebus, but not because of bite (like is the argument on countless threads about this same topic, which is telling) but because of mist. In good hands, an Erebus can avoid almost all burst damage (minus Reg's snipe, which if cast before mist will still hit).

Mist, like other similar games (dota) should allow Erebus to still be damaged by AoE and DoT's, which it currently does not. He can virtually sit in the mist forever with a fairly decent amount of mana, and can fully regen health with an above average amount of health regen. If nothing else, he can mist, wait it out for people to realize the lost XP of waiting, and bat swarm away. He is, in many ways, virtually untouchable. The best counter of course would be a stun, but the amount of team members required to kill him before the stun is up makes him seem even more overpowered.

As suggested, allow him to be damaged in the mist, or make the 50g item (forgot the name) give visibility in the mist so that you can attack Erebus. I do think the game is very balanced, but Erebus (and a very close second, Senda) have a very good skill set to outlast almost all demigods. I am not of the ilk to think all demigods should be able to win in a 1v1 (my main as of now is Frost TB, not a 1v1 hero killer at all), but I do think 2v1, unless there is an item disadvantage, no hero should be able to win as the one.

Hope this is helpful - please do not nerf bite, it is his best ability, just change the dynamics of mist.

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Weak against buildings...? He's a general, you use the minions to tank buildings.

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Nice post CKorth, I agree that I'm not calling for a straight Bite nerf. Perhaps mist is the angle to go. There just needs to be something where you can put the nail in his coffin. Every other hero has this.

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The two worst characters for Erebus to face (at least for me) are Sedna and UB.

Sedna has a nuke that does more damage then Erebus and she heals herself faster, she can be a tough battle for Erebus is she takes a healing route early in the game.

UB is pretty scary too, Spit then foul grasp then spit again and your basically dead. I try to be very wary around him.

Erebus has a pretty good bag of tools that allows him to deal with a lot of situations, and the strength really comes into effect in 1v1 battles. Let's look at important things a Demigod should have.

List of considerations for a Demigod:

1. Some form of Nuke Damage

2. Way to effectively deal with towers

3. Way to heal oneself through abilities

4. Way to guard oneself / or escape a battle or damage

5. Way to deal with people who run away or attack people from long range

6. Way to effectively kill grunts at a quick pace

7. Mana / Health Regen abilities

8. Ability casuing negative effects on others, like slow, armor loss, explode when dead, etc.

9. Way to debuff negative effects

The only ones that Erebus is missing is the ability to deal with towers effectively and a Mana Regen ability. Therefore, he has extremely survivability because he can deal with most situations.

While our teamates deal with towers, we run around, capping flags and headhunting essentially.

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I think an important fact to remember is that most people, including myself, call other characters overpowered if they have a hard time dealing with 1v1, which is not everything this game is balanced around (although it is a major component).

I for one think UB's spit should have melee range, which would eliminate all the kills he gets from getting in range while you're running away and spitting. Otherwise I feel the combo of Spit / Foul Grasp / Spit does too much damage in a short period. I have a hard time dealing with it 1v1.

Also, I think Sedna's healing regen can just get way too outta control. Her pounce does as much damage as nuke and she can get to a point when she's getting over 100 health per second, plus her heals can seem to make her invulnerable. And I have this viewpoint from 1v1 battles with her and having a hard time putting the nail in her coffin.

Character's like Regulus, Rook, QoT and UB all have abilities that effectively deal damage to towers, so they were designed with that purpose in mind, at least in some capacity. Erebus may have been designed to be the DG killer, hard to fight 1v1. The same can be said for UB really, who's dps and abilities allow him to do massive damage so quick he gets tons of kills.

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Erebus is mostly fine.

i think his damage output is fine, he struggles do damage buildings (his only real way of doing this is with Idol minions, his nightwalkers are beyond terrible at it and he has no skills that can affect buildings). his auto-attack damage is weak, he has no passive skills that increase it. his damage dealing ability is linked entirely to the Bite skill. it makes him very adept at Biting demigods which severely weakens them and then getting a few whacks in with his regular attack.

where Erebus excels in mobility and staying power. his skills are all oriented around this. he kills demigods fairly easily because he can press the attack continously as long as he has mana. its nearly impossible to get rid of him since he can just turn to Mist if things get too hot.

the limiting factor is his mana supply. and this is where i perceive their being a minor problem. Bite is too mana efficient. Erebus is able to remain effective in combat for too long because Bite costs too little mana. i think he would be totally fine if Bite's mana cost was slightly increased.

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Apparently OhLordE, you haven't discovered that all you need to do is hit the Mist button and you prevent 1.3K damage from Spit.

Erebus is the only truly overpowered DG, and he's actually worse 2v2 as opposed to 1v1 (some people seem to be trying to play the bullshit "the game isn't balanced around 1v1 card"). Play on Prison (worst map ever) against a good Erebus and not only will you lose, but you won't have fun either. You'll be winning a 1v1, and all of a sudden from out of the fog of war, Erebus ports and Bites for up to 1.5K damage, now making it a 2v1, and because of the way towers are setup, mist, and port, he can chase you into your base to finish you off without any danger.

He's also one of the best DGs at punishing the one less skilled player on the enemy team as Bite, Mist, and Batport allow you to be highly aggressive and get kills that other DGs could never pick up without dying in the process. I'll regularly chase people past towers and then teleport out. Taking the Cloak of Night favor item (2000 favor) allows you to have two teleports on seperate cooldowns, which is beyond ridiculous.

Erebus is probably my second favorite DemiGod, but he's so incredibly broken I feel a little bad playing him in public games, and my friends won't allow me to play him at all. He has some of the better healing, better defense, better offense, and better movement in the game. Erebus has no deficiencies except early game vs. buildings, which is a pathetically meager deficiency to worry about. A well played Erebus has so many defenses that even if he cannot kill you, you cannot kill him even as another DG specifically specced into killing DGs. To contrast him with UB, even if UB is as good at killing (and he's not), UB has no defenses or heals even up to level 20, whereas Erebus has three sources of healing, an escape, and an uncounterable, perfect defense.

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Minion builds with defensive DGs (sedna and QoT especially) will kick Erebus' butt 1v1. In fact, I'd rather face him or UB more than any other DG 1v1 with a minion build.

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Erebus is definately slightly OP, but barely.

There are only two MAIN things that need to be done with him.

1. Bat Swarm range shouldnt increase to 30 yards. Is far too long. Decrease that a bit.

2. Bite needs a SLIGHT nerf (its his only damaging move, so dont over nerf it). Im thinking bring damage down to 850 or 800 OR increase its CD by 1-2 seconds. You could also keep bite as it is with 900 damage and 7 second CD but take away its armour reduction or slowdown movement (he already has 6.3 base speed). Only do ONE of these ones, not all of them or a couple or you may over-nerf him.

That is all that should be done with the next patch. Demigods balance is fine atm and the last thing we need are big balance changes to screw things up. Just do the following I mentioned to Erebus and see how things turn out. If he still too OP, then nerf him slightly more in the next patch.

Small changes are better then big ones

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I think if Erebus needs a nerf, it's not the damage of bite, but the fact that it rapes armor. I think the fact it does damage, heals you, and makes the enemy take more damage for a while is what makes it overpowered. Without that Erebus would only have his Vamp Aura to passively boost his auto-attack, which is key in the late-late game. I think Erebus is also a bit weak early game, before you can build up skills pretty much everyone else can take a low-stat melee fighter, so with reduced armor reduction he'd be weak at both ends of the battle.

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Its funny to see people throw around blatent lies about Erebus because they are so afraid of him they have allowed their perceptions of him to outgrow the truth.

If people bothered to read an FAQ on the base stats of all the DG's then they would see that Erebus has the lowest Armor, lowest HP and lowest damage of any DG (TB is tied as lowest with armor and hp and Queen is tied with lowest dmg)

So Erebus has the lowest HP, Armor, and base damage of all DG's yet he is expected to get into MELEE RANGE to do ANYTHING whatsoever. How is a DG like this suppose to do anything? With intelligent playing and well timed use of skills. If you swarm at the wrong time, stun at the wrong time even ONCE, you are dead, Erebus must calculate the tide of battle as it is raging perfectly in order to know when to stay and tickle the enemy with his scepter or when it is time to start retreating and thats if you even have mana available to do that. (Depending of if you went for mana items or Armor/HP items).

The fact that ALL his main damage must be done in MELEE RANGE (swarm doesn't dmg DG's very much at all) is an incredible handicap to a class whose base stats are so squishy.

Sure an Erebus can tank himself up with Armor+HP items, but then he can only do his spell repetoire once before running out of mana comepletely at levels 1-12. So a good Erebus must find the balance of mana items and tank items since he MUST be in the thick of battle and therefore never achieves the tankability of other classes such as Oak (another general).

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Quoting Krangerang,

reply 15

Its funny to see people throw around blatent lies about Erebus because they are so afraid of him they have allowed their perceptions of him to outgrow the truth.

If people bothered to read an FAQ on the base stats of all the DG's then they would see that Erebus has the lowest Armor, lowest HP and lowest damage of any DG (TB is tied as lowest with armor and hp and Queen is tied with lowest dmg)

So Erebus has the lowest HP, Armor, and base damage of all DG's yet he is expected to get into MELEE RANGE to do ANYTHING whatsoever. How is a DG like this suppose to do anything? With intelligent playing and well timed use of skills. If you swarm at the wrong time, stun at the wrong time even ONCE, you are dead, Erebus must calculate the tide of battle as it is raging perfectly in order to know when to stay and tickle the enemy with his scepter or when it is time to start retreating and thats if you even have mana available to do that. (Depending of if you went for mana items or Armor/HP items).

The fact that ALL his main damage must be done in MELEE RANGE (swarm doesn't dmg DG's very much at all) is an incredible handicap to a class whose base stats are so squishy.

Sure an Erebus can tank himself up with Armor+HP items, but then he can only do his spell repetoire once before running out of mana comepletely at levels 1-12. So a good Erebus must find the balance of mana items and tank items since he MUST be in the thick of battle and therefore never achieves the tankability of other classes such as Oak (another general).

Did Erebus hypnotize you into becoming his propagandist? The insignificant difference in base stats doesn't matter because Erebus's abilities are all good or overpowered.

Let's see:

Offense: Very good. Bat + Bite is nice burst which can come from a huge distance without warning. Bite also reduces armor, increasing both Erebus and everyone else's auto attack damage. He also has one of the better slowing effects despite having the fastest movement and a teleport.

Defense: Very good. Mist form + Bat means you only die if you screw up. I cannot emphasize this enough. Erebus CANNOT be killed unless he allows himself to be.

Healing: Between Bite which heals for huge amounts, passive Life Steal, and passive HP regen, Erebus is one of the best healers in the game, albeit only of himself.

Movement: Tied for the fastest starting movement and can teleport. Easily the best in the game. He can also get the Cloak of Night to make this ever better.

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I post this in most Erebus threads.

I dont know why people say he is fragile and does low damage because this is not the case he has good stats when it comes to HPs, Armor and damage.

Erebus is definityly powerful and on at least one map is overpowered due to batswarm being able to tele him to his regen stone and then back into the middle of the combat zone. But besides that I dont know if he is overpowered.

I believe his bite as it is now is a little over the top. IMO the movement speed debuff on it should be toned down a bit. In exchange maybe buff up one of his minion skills or something.

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We should definitely make him pink... and his mist. That'll show him.

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I don't agree. I find Erebus very easy to kill... And that's considering I use QoT without any offensive skills (I only use her closed techniques).

Seriously, Erebus has not been a problem for me. He barely even harms my mini-army (Shamblers + Idol minions) even with his own army of nightwalkers. He may have the ability to drain life, but his actual maximum life is very low. So he can't hoard that much endurance. And it doesn't help that his attacks are melee and quite slow.

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When and where you were fighting vs Erebus? (according to the online stats you have played two games online and 0 vs Erebus) Do you mean singleplayer fight vs AI Erebus? Its not the same like vs human being Erebus. Yes AI Erebus is easy to kill, all DG's controled by AI are easy to kill.

(IMO) Erebus need slight nerf. Maybe if in mist he will just froze all his cooldowns so, he will can't bat swarm - bite - mist - bite or bat swarm. (so he will can't wait for cooldowns to come back) DalzK have already gave some good ideas about nerfing Erebus.

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To discuss the nerfs I would use:

Bite: Remove armor debuff. Possibly increase cooldown by 1 second.

Mist form: A higher cost to go into Mist (as it removes negative buffs and can dodge slow attacks, so even a single second in mist is often a couple hundred mana worth of value), and cooldowns are frozen while in Mist.

Bat form: Reduce to 20/25/30 teleport.

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Let's see.... my big ol' list of Erebus weaknesses and counters:

Weaknesses:

-No projectile(Erebus and Sedna are the only DGs with no projectile attacks). Unless he approaches with Batswarm, he'll have to take damage when getting in close.

-Squishy. He dies fast with little support or restricted skill access.

-Very mana reliant. See squishy, but also make that offensivly too.

-Weak autoattack. Very reliant on skill usage and minions to defeat enemies.

-long cooldown and high mana cost on batswarm means its use is limited in battles. He can't teleport into melee range and chase an enemy with it, and he can't teleport in and out of combat. He can only do one or the other.

-One of the weakest structure breakers in the game, Erebus needs considerable reinforcement to take down citadels. Simply put, he's a good killer, but he has trouble actually winning games.

-High reliance on bite means he has to get close to an enemy to heal.

-Regulus

-Weak against non-squishy enemies early game.

Specific Counters:

-Oak's sheild stops Erebus' bite from doing any damage, meaning no health gain(I used to think that QoT's sheild did as well, but apparently, it still takes damage, therefore, still gives Erebus health). Pentinance slows down his approach.

-Regulus.

-Being squishy, a mid to late game rook can usually outdamage him with towers.

-UB should be able to outdamage Erebus, especially early game.

-No Sedna worth their salt should die against Erebus in a duel post-mid-game.

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I like playing as Erebus. I've been doing it since I got the game. I win some battles, I lose some battles... but I hate it when I'm sitting in the lobby and I'm looked down upon and called a "noob" because I play with him. I'm by no means a great player. I'd say I'm mediocre at best. But when I win or am about to win, its always the "Erebus is OP. IMBA IMBA" bullshit. Most of the people complaining need to learn how to buy the right equipment and use the right abilities. I lose as many games as I win. Its stupid to automatically assume that the player is picking a DG so he can utilize his "overpoweredness" to win games. Maybe I'll just switch to another DG so I can stop the headache.

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XavierMace

Join Date 04/2006

+14

A big factor is also game mode settings. If you are playing high gold games, Erebus can go into Mist indefinately with 3 items. If you let him get to level 20 on a high gold game, he will win. Period. Not just may win, if he gets the 3 necessary items the game is over. Reg is obviously the DPS king and Sedna's healing makes her hard to kill at high settings but they can still be killed even if it means ganging up on them. I've played 7 games today as Erebus and have yet to finish lower than 2nd place in total damage.

Or, if you are more of an assassin type, you can get his life leech so high that he can hold his own against multiple demigods.

Once again, I stress this is only the case in high gold games. Obviously, it's the items making the difference. But in that scenario, I can't find a way to defeat him.

That said, all it takes is one good Reg or UB player to make his life hell until that point.

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Incase anyone doesn't know there is a bite nerf coming to make it use more mana, do less damage and less armor reduction, as posted by frogboy. I think its in the next update

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