Restorative Scroll & UB Vemon Spit

Vanadrom

Join Date 07/2006

+70

Restorative Scroll & UB Vemon Spit

So far, there is has always been a questionable uproar about the Unclean Beast. His spit is a very nasty poison, and while most real players can handle it, the AI simply can not. I didn't care to play out a few AI rich Pantheon Games where I was teamed up against a UB because the 3 DoT Build is very effective against AI. But, one thing I figured that would resolve some issues with the UB's spit is that it is ultimately, a negative effect. It's a DoT, a Damage Over Time poison ability. So naturally, you'd think a player would have the option to purchase an item, which would render the attack useless. But no such item exists, or does it? In fact there is an item called the Restorative Scroll, but it only removed negative effects from your army, and not you.

Restorative Scroll
Cost: 250
0.3sec Cast -- Cooldown 20 seconds
Use: Any negative effects on your army are removed. The Demigod is not effected.

What exact use does this item really have? I've really used it until I decided to play against the forced of Darkness in Pantheon when I ran into a lot of Lord Erebus and Unclean Beast players - both which use some very lethal Negative Effects. But my question is simple, why not allow the scroll to effect Demigods? If I want to purchase a scroll which renders me amune to the Unclean Beast + Cooldown Reduction + Venom Spit repeater cannon, then I should have that option. I can only carry a limited amount of scrolls at one time, so it's be my choice on when I should use them and how.

Personally, I'd rather invest in a Restorative Scroll rather than a Heal Potion, because A) It's cheaper and I won't take very much damage from venom spits if I have scrolls on me. It'd make the Unclean Beast more approachable, and many demigods wouldn't be forced to fall back due to being overwhelmed by the DoT stack.

demigod

Locked Post

Advanced Search

Watch this post

Do not email me updates for this post Email me updates for this post

Successfully updated karma reason!

No one said that the Restorative Scroll would make people immune to status effects, even suggesting is blowing the suggestion completely out of wack to give more favor to an argument that is straddling saturated earth

You're suggesting that it remove debuffs on the demigod. That is essentially temporary immunity to status effects. Sure you'll get hit with the next cast, but none of the immunity granting abilities will save you from that. It's on a fast enough recharge that you can use it once a fight so it's comparable to other immunity items in terms of recharge. The difference is it's a 250 gold consumable. Regardless, this is just arguing semantics. The point is you could always save it to make retreating from UB far easier than it should be. You wouldn't have to worry about overextension until you're at the same level of health as vs any of the other DGs and that would take a huge bite out of UB's early game usefulness. Also, the cooldown on spit may be trivial at the start of the game, but later on when fights easily last just 3-4 seconds before someone dies or retreats, you would be able to use them to completely negate the skill points your enemies have invested in status effects. I'm guessing it's like this already with the symbol of purity but at least you can turn favor items off(and as mentioned, you're choosing it at the expense of a favor item that augments your specific build). I don't think we really need a consumable that does this to be honest.

Successfully updated karma reason!

There are people who think otherwise Doggie, we'll just have to see how it fairs when it is applied to future patches.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting OrleanKnight,

reply 2

There are people who think otherwise Doggie, we'll just have to see how it fairs when it is applied to future patches.

Some of those people also don't realize that there's a favor item and all four generals can counter it.

Successfully updated karma reason!

There is a favor item, and it works nicely. Adding the item would certainly change a lot of things, but exactly for the worse. Unclean would still be quite strong against fellow assains, and depending on how the scroll can be adjusted to make its use not fully replace the favor item has not yet been determined.

Successfully updated karma reason!

So we can't have UB strong vs 3 other demigods yet 3/4 generals can also give their team-mates their counters to spit? Some abilties are going to be stronger vs certain oppenents that doesn't need to be changed. In fact it would still be balanced if they removed symbol of purity.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting OrleanKnight,

reply 11

Ah but a common choice for the 3 DoT Build is the Staff of Renual, which is a Favor Item. So I shouldn't pick a favor item that'd compliment my build, just because I sometimes want to counter a spit. Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense.... yes, that was sarcasm. Still doesn't address why we have such a useless 250 scroll sitting in the Mutli-Shop.

Heaven forbid you change your strategies based on the actual outplay of the game.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting OrleanKnight,

reply 11

There are better favor items to take than the 20% cooldown one for UB, especially in smaller games. It takes 10 seconds for Spit to do all of its damage, a few seconds longer than its cooldown.

I usually save staff of renewal for playing TB or even Reg some times.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting kstampy,

reply 7

Quoting OrleanKnight, reply 11 Ah but a common choice for the 3 DoT Build is the Staff of Renual, which is a Favor Item. So I shouldn't pick a favor item that'd compliment my build, just because I sometimes want to counter a spit. Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense.... yes, that was sarcasm. Still doesn't address why we have such a useless 250 scroll sitting in the Mutli-Shop.

There are better favor items to take than the 20% cooldown one for UB, especially in smaller games. It takes 10 seconds for Spit to do all of its damage, a few seconds longer than its cooldown.

I usually save staff of renewal for playing TB or even Reg some times.

Actually your spit stacks with itself. However it only takes one symbol of purity use to purge them all.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Aruge all you want about "Oh that's just how it is", well let me tell you, that's not exactly how this game is intended to play. This thread has been created to see how people thought about it, but no one is really providing any sound arguments on why a scroll to shed away negative effects is not a good idea. Heck, in hindsight it probably could even use an alternative use. Such as being used on an enemy Demigod to remove positive effects. Such as Bramble Shield, Oak's Shield, Last Stand, and various other things.

Just last night did a 4v4. I played a Queen, and someone else played as Queen. We also had Sedna and the ridiculously powerful Unclean Beast. The two Queens had the exact same Bramble build, and we just kept spamming shield over and over and over and over. Out primary melee Demigods never took damage, it was an easy win because even in mass the enemy just couldn't ever deal damage. It's be very nice to have something to make shields and other positive effects useless for a short duration, and that'd probably even include heal too.

Successfully updated karma reason!

The arguments are there. You're just ignoring them. Status effects cost critical skill points to invest in and they can change the outcome of a fight. If you can purchase a 250 gold scroll and just shrug them off, their value will be questionable early on and they won't scale well at all once the fights are over before their status effect incurring spell recharges.

Saying that favor items should be used only to augment your own build is simply short sighted. You use the tools you are given to whatever their best effect is, that is the point of the game. If you get more mileage out of a favor item that directly counters your opponent's build, it makes perfect sense to use it over one that augments your own. It will often set them back further than it sets you back. Also, I think you are underestimating the symbol of purity. Being able to counter an important ability of your opponent's is huge. A few years back, I played a game called Impossible Creatures. In this game you got to create and choose the units in your army. Now, everyone used walkulas at level 2 because they had reasonable damage, camouflage(they were invisible when not attacking), and health regen(which is not on everything in the game). The walkulas had a significant advantage over other units because they always got first hit and always got into melee. The reason for this is no one had keen sense(a passive ability that detects all invisible things in a radius) units. Along comes the coyagon. The coyagon had identical damage, less health, and more armor. Since it also had health regen, it benefitted a little bit more from it. The coyagon also had keen sense, so the walkulas were always visible to it. It could beat walkulas in melee by a reasonable margin because the walkulas weren't getting first hit all the time. It also spotted the walkulas for any ranged units you built along with the coyagons. As such, most people started using coyagons and stopped using walkulas. Now there are other combinations with abilities that enhance their own attributes rather than countering the opponent's, but these were not widely used because in the case of walkulas, it was more important to be able to deal with the camouflage than to dish out extra damage for yourself. Now, demigod is not Impossible Creatures, but the principle behind this example still holds. More often than not, countering your opponent is more important than making yourself more powerful.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting OrleanKnight,

reply 9

Okay look, the point here is simple. The very fact that you need a favor item in the first place, Symbol of Purity, for Assassins most of the time is why this is an issue. Yes, we know it works, and I agree it does, but the rock bottom point is that you have to use a favor item to counter it. Players need to be on equal playing ground, each player should be able to choose a Favor item which is complimentary to greater objective, not simply one Demigod. Brandishing a Symbol in a larger Demigod game will often lead to a loss becauee the enemy gets to use the ones which gives them advantage, while you are forced to use poor items just to survive one Demigod's attack.

Aruge all you want about "Oh that's just how it is", well let me tell you, that's not exactly how this game is intended to play. This thread has been created to see how people thought about it, but no one is really providing any sound arguments on why a scroll to shed away negative effects is not a good idea. Heck, in hindsight it probably could even use an alternative use. Such as being used on an enemy Demigod to remove positive effects. Such as Bramble Shield, Oak's Shield, Last Stand, and various other things.

Just last night did a 4v4. I played a Queen, and someone else played as Queen. We also had Sedna and the ridiculously powerful Unclean Beast. The two Queens had the exact same Bramble build, and we just kept spamming shield over and over and over and over. Out primary melee Demigods never took damage, it was an easy win because even in mass the enemy just couldn't ever deal damage. It's be very nice to have something to make shields and other positive effects useless for a short duration, and that'd probably even include heal too.

Generally when you want something nerfed (which is what you're asking for) you need to prove it should be. Spit has multiple counters one of which is don't let UB get that close but you act like generals and symbol of purity is the only way. Symbol of purity is simply one way of countering it. Another would be to itemize more for health then damage or to carry potions to counter. If I face a UB with an assassin which isn't that often which is weird if UB's "so powerful." I take into consideration that i'm facing a UB, spit is his only strength so I need to avoid dieing early so I can starve his cash and stop his early game advantage. No pont in typing them up though, as you'd dismiss them anyways.

Having to take into account UB's spit is no different from having to take into account sedna's heal or QoT's shield. It's the main focus point of the demi-god and unless your scroll counters all the demi-gods focus points it's being biased to hating one demi-god. So yeah i'll be all for the scroll if it:

Stops sedna's heal, Qot's shield, Rook's hammer slam or towers, regs snipe or mines, erebus' bite, TB's deep freeze and fireball, and oak's shield. Plus removing spit, as then it's balanced, but to do all that it'd need to cost as the bare minimum 1500.

No one's forcing you to take symbol of purity, it's simply the easiest none general spell to counter it. That doesn't mean there aren't other ways.

Successfully updated karma reason!