Warskullx

Join Date 03/2008

Demigod Balance : Helmets

A lot of people look to the demigods for Demigod's balance. However, far more imbalanced than the demigods are the items. Erebus was a bit too good, but all the demigods can be toppled and no demigod is completely useless. The balance is functional enough for the time being. The items on the other hand are severely out of whack. Some items are amazing while others exist only to fill space. The gaps between items are crazy. Yes, items have different strengths and costs. However, some items are insanely cost efficient, while other similarly priced items are a complete waste of space and money. The two places it is most visible are the boots and the helmets. I will address helmets in this post. It's somewhat long, if you have a short attention span, scroll down and skip to the summary. It is underlined.

I would highly advise anyone reading this post to refer to demigoddb: http://demigoddb.com/

Demigod DB lists the stats and prices of all items in an excellent manner as well has providing quick access to the demigod's stats. I've bolded item names so you can quickly recognize I am referring to an item and look that item up if necessary.

Now what is wrong with helmets? Most helmets fall into one of two categories, +Mana/second and +Mana Regen%. The mana/sec helmets give you a set amount of mana/second while the mana% helmets are a function of your current mana regen.

You can start by looking at the two starting helmets, the scaled helm and the plate visor. These are similar entry level helmets, for similar prices. However, out the door the scaled helm is extremely effective, while the plate visor is pretty much useless. This is because demigod's natural regen is simple not very high. A demigod's natural regen would have to be about 11.42 mana/sec for the regen of the plate visor to match that of the scaled helm. The torch bearer, the demigod with the highest natural mana regen in the game does not reach this point until he hits level 18. No other demigod ever hits the point where the plate visor outperforms the scaled helm. In fact the regen from the scaled helm outperform the regen from the plenor battlecrown on most heroes until slightly after level 10. The scaled helm is better for erebus until level 13, for the QoT until 10, and for sedna until 11. You need 5.71 natural mana regen for the plenor battlecrown to perform as well as the scaled helm. When you bring in the vlemish faceguard it isn't even a contest. In fact the vlemish faceguard is very easily the best helmet available.

So the end result is the scaled helm and vlemish faceguard are absolutely amazing helmets and vastly outperform the others, especially for their price. The plate visor is absolutely useless and should never be purchased. The plenor battlecrown should only be purchased for the increased manapool and be used in conjunction with the vlemish faceguard. The vinling helmet is really just a more expensive, mutated version of the plenor battlecrown. The hungarlings crown is only marginally better than the vlemish faceguard, but really doesn't justify the cost (that 6500 could easily be spent better elsewhere.) Finally, the theurgist's cap is the red headed stepchild of the mix. It's really out in the blue and there is no reason to ever consider it. The mana% helmets are completely reliant on the purchase of +mana/sec items to make them effective.

You can very easily get away with using only the vlemish faceguard. You probably want to purchase a scaled helm near the start of the game, which can be upgraded to plenor battlecrown later. However, these three items can meet all your mana needs very easily. Try changing your mana item habits for a few games and you'll see what I mean.

The end result is mana items (which are mostly the helmets) are dominated by a two extremely cost effective items and a number of the helmets have zero reason to exist, other than to act as filler. They can effectively be replaced with items that do nothing and have no significant impact on the game.

So, what needs to be done to improve the situation? In general +mana/sec items need nerfed and +mana% items needs buffed or repurposed. Some suggestions on an item by item basis follow.

Scaled Helm: This item simply needs nerfed, the cheap starting items being cost efficient and powerful is great. This one is a bit too good though. +2 or 3 mana/sec would be more appropriate as would reduce +mana. It should probably give more in the range of +250-350 mana.

Plate Visor: This will never be able to compete with the scaled helm as an opener for mana regeneration. However, converting it into a mana pool item could work. If this simply gave +750 to +1000 mana (and did nothing else) it could be an appealing opener. It would give the choice between mana regen or a large mana pool.

Plenor Battlecrown: Truthfully, this item seems just about right. It is just vastly overshadowed by the vlemish faceguard. Maybe the gains could slightly higher if needed.

Vlemish Faceguard: Insanely good. You gain +16 mana/sec which is greater than all demigods have naturally at 20. In fact it is around double what most demigods naturally have at 20. On top of this all your buddies get a bit of mana too. My suggestion would be to keep the aura roughly the same (maybe +3mana/sec) and roughly cut the normal bonus in half. It should give 6-8 mana/sec total. About half as effective as it currently is. It would still be a very strong item.

Theurgists Cap: This needs completely reworked. It is bad mana gains, a poor +health item, has a good trigger condition, and the minion bonus just isn't that interesting. A hybrid health/mana item is a nice idea. This one just sucks. The health can stay about the same, but it needs to either be +70% mana regen or get a pure +mana/sec bonus. In addition I think a good way to make this a general item would be to convert the bonus. Giving the player a set mana bonus (say 100 mana) every time a minion dies could make this an appealing general item.

Vinling Helmet: This could use some small buffs. I think bumping it up to +100% mana and/or tossing a small +mana/sec onto it (say 2-4 mana/sec) could help make it a bit more appealing.

Hungarlings Crown: With the proposed nerfs to vlemish faceguard and the scaled helm, the current stats would be justified. I think the key to making this an item worth 6500 is to tone down the sub-2000 items that perform nearly as well. You just never have the need to step it up to this level with the vlemish faceguard being so powerful.

Quick math formula for comparisions:

[+Mana per second] / [%mana regen] = Mana per second needed for the percent item to be as effective as the +mana/sec item

example vlemish faceguard (+16mana/sec) vs plenor battlecrown (+70% regen):

15/0.70 = 21.42 mana/sec needed for plenor battlecrown to be as effective as vlemish faceguard.

In Summary:

Helmet balance is really out of whack. You should always get a vlemish faceguard and suppliment it with either a scaled helm or plenor battlecrown if you need more mana. The other helmets really aren't prudent investments and your money can most likely be spend better elsewhere.

Every item should have a purpose and appeal. You should be able to at least consider most items. If they are fringe and somewhat situationally useful that is ok. If they are completely overshadowed by other items they have no reason to exist and should either be fixed or removed for the game. Items like the plate visor currently serve as nothing more than newbie traps, tricking players into wasting their gold on them. These items are ultimately non-existant at higher level play.

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muusbolla
OrzInvasion
TenetGW
NeoVain

I generally think all helms should be nerfed because once you get velmish + plenor you really dont care about mana anymore, which lets you shoot spells without thinking and I think its wrong

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yes, i agree. nerf the uber items and put them down to usefulness with the rest of the items, so we can see some variation.

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Make more varations of sub 2000 items. No one is going to spend 5000+ on a slight upgrade when they can purchase an artifact or cit upgrades. Boots are the same, I would only ever consider buying boots of speed and unbreakable boots, the rest aren't cost effective.

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I don't think they made the vlenor+vlemish "OP". Stardock wants the action in the game to stay fast paced and not have players retreating to a crystal after every short altercation at a flag. The helmets are fine, if anything raise the price on them a bit. But don't miss the point that having an almost infinite mana pool (you still do run out of mana spamming abilities even with 3 helmets) is a good theme to the game and keeps action intense.

If the helmets got nerfed every battle would be just a mana game. For example if two Demigod battle over a flag and one wins, that winning Demigod is now forced to retreat off his hard earned flag to a far away health crystal to replenish his mana from the battle. And if he does decide to stay a much lower level Demigod can easily push him off because of his low if not no remaining mana.

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Only thing not considered is that +mana per sec items increase the effectiveness of +%mana per second items.

For instance, if you already have a vlemish and 10 mana per second natural, then you have 26 mana per second total. A plenor would give you 70% of 26 mana per second, which is a little more than 18 mana per second. That actually means if you have both, the plenor is providing a bigger mana boost.

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Quoting Sythion,

reply 5

Only thing not considered is that +mana per sec items increase the effectiveness of +%mana per second items.

For instance, if you already have a vlemish and 10 mana per second natural, then you have 26 mana per second total. A plenor would give you 70% of 26 mana per second, which is a little more than 18 mana per second. That actually means if you have both, the plenor is providing a bigger mana boost.

I do consider that, the issue is that everything hinges on the vlemish faceguard. You need the vlemish faceguard to make the plenor battlecrown good. The +mana% items are really just acting as supplements to the vlemish faceguard. I just don't go too in depth. Basically, you are going to buy the vlemish faceguard then one mana% item at most.

Quoting Dosar,

reply 4

I don't think they made the vlenor+vlemish "OP". Stardock wants the action in the game to stay fast paced and not have players retreating to a crystal after every short altercation at a flag. The helmets are fine, if anything raise the price on them a bit. But don't miss the point that having an almost infinite mana pool (you still do run out of mana spamming abilities even with 3 helmets) is a good theme to the game and keeps action intense.

Then natural mana regen should be higher and spells should cost less. Having a super mana item that far outshines all the others is just foolish. My point is that the vlemish faceguard puts you at that near infinite mana pool almost single handedly. Aside for very hard burst usage you are going to be set. That makes the other helmets fairly pointless. Notice that I said the Hungarlings crown should stay the same. That would be as powerful as the vlemish faceguard is now. Powerful mana items can and should exist. The end all item just shouldn't be at the 2000 mark.

Ask yourself what helmets you get. The vlemish faceguard is circled in red in and is the one helmet you pretty much always get. You grab scaled as an opener. Then sometimes you upgrade the scaled to a plenor. There are only 3 helmets people are considering and it really all revolves around one must have helmet. That's just not good. My proposed numbers/changed might not be perfect. The idea is that the vlemish needs nerfed to allow the other helmets to be viable choices and some of the other helmets need buffed or reworked.

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Yeah... the plate visor isn't as good as the scaled helm at the start... but remember, you can use BOTH! They stack! Now the plate visor is pretty good, isn't it?

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Compare Unbreakable Boots stats to the Haubrek of Life or any armor in that price range... funny stuff.

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Yea I get the vlemish faceguard literally every game. It was extremely clear from the onset that it was without any doubt the best helm, seriously sometimes I don't even need to buy the scaled helm or plenor battlecrown to complement it . Although I often get the heart of life especially since my main is Oak and he has the lowest mana pool.

The items in this game need some serious work, and we could use a few more items of every category, we need more variety. For example, in Guild Wars, there was a weapon mod, Zealous, which lowered your mana regen but you got 1 mana every time you hit something with an attack. Something like that would be good in Demigod, though of course it would not be 1 mana, maybe 20 or something.

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I buy the Plenor Battlecrown as my only helm most games. The +mana for the cost is all I want for my build of TB

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Quoting Warskullx,

reply 6

The point is that there are more situations than having just 1 helm with no additional mana boosts.

There are a lot of situations where getting a +% mana regen is the best choice, such as:

it's your second helm
you are high level
you are getting bonuses from other people's vlemish or TB ice aura
you have a single +15 mana regen flag
any combination of the above.

Actually, I would say that the bonus to manage regen % is better in many situations than a straight mana boost.

The only exception is the plate visor, which is a bad choice for a low level item.

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Quoting Jaxelrod,

reply 7

Yeah... the plate visor isn't as good as the scaled helm at the start... but remember, you can use BOTH! They stack! Now the plate visor is pretty good, isn't it?

No, not really. You only get an additional 1.4 mana/second out of plate visor and scaled helm. You are much better off saving that 600 for a better helm or spending it elsewhere. The plate visor is pretty bad overall.

Quoting Sythion,

reply 11

The point is that there are more situations than having just 1 helm with no additional mana boosts.

There are a lot of situations where getting a +% mana regen is the best choice, such as:

it's your second helm
you are high level
you are getting bonuses from other people's vlemish or TB ice aura
you have a single +15 mana regen flag
any combination of the above.

Actually, I would say that the bonus to manage regen % is better in many situations than a straight mana boost.

The only exception is the plate visor, which is a bad choice for a low level item.

I've already shown that even at lvl 20 on the torchbearer (best mana regen) that the Vlemish far outperforms the plenor battlecrown. Being high level alone is not enough to justify taking the plenor over the vlemish. The mana flag is only on Leviathan and Exile (in conquest mode.) In exile it is a very highly contested flag that you cannot rely on holding. You could get a helm that is good all the time, or a helm that is slight better some of the time, but far worse the rest of the time. The same for getting someone elses vlemish bonus, the +4 isn't enough alone to make you take a plenor over a vlemish.

The only significant condition is if you want a second mana crown and already have a vlemish. Your first pick will always be the vlemish faceguard. You would really need the mana flag, an aura from another vlemish, a scaled helm, and to be a reasonably high level to have the plenor battlecrown reliable outperform the vlemish faceguard. Seems like it is just better to buy a vlemish faceguard and then use the plenor as your second helm.

You need to go look at the numbers, they don't lie. You need more than 21.42 mana/second for the plenor to be better than a vlemish. No demigod reaches that level naturally. Mostly barely crack that barrier when a +15 mana/sec flag is held. The mere +4 mana/sec from another vlemish isn't nearly enough for any demigod to crack 21.42 mana/sec.

You just listed condition which you feel are good, but are ultimately without merit. About the only place it is true is if you are playing torchbearer on leviathen (when you have a relatively safe +15mana/sec flag.) Most other demigods won't benefit more from the plenor than the vlemish until about level 15 on leviathan.

It boils down to you must have a vlemish or similar +mana item to make the mana% items worthwhile.

Quoting Teseer,

reply 10

I buy the Plenor Battlecrown as my only helm most games. The +mana for the cost is all I want for my build of TB

You should try taking the vlemish instead for a bit. It only costs 250 gold more and the plenor battlecrown only gives you 525 more mana. The vlemish should make this back for you if your mana pull isn't full for about 1 minute.

At level 5: 47.06 seconds
At level 10: 55.07 seconds
At level 15: 66.32 seconds
At level 20: 83.43 seconds

So unless you are frequently traveling back to the base, using potions heavily, or burning all your mana at once, the vlemish should still be better.

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Quoting Warskullx,

reply 12

Quoting Teseer,
reply 10
I buy the Plenor Battlecrown as my only helm most games. The +mana for the cost is all I want for my build of TB

You should try taking the vlemish instead for a bit. It only costs 250 gold more and the plenor battlecrown only gives you 525 more mana. The vlemish should make this back for you if your mana pull isn't full for about 1 minute.

At level 5: 47.06 seconds
At level 10: 55.07 seconds
At level 15: 66.32 seconds
At level 20: 83.43 seconds
So unless you are frequently traveling back to the base, using potions heavily, or burning all your mana at once, the vlemish should still be better.

I'm quite aware. It's all in how I build TB. Never had a mana problem, and that's the only mana item i buy (other then the unbreakables)

Not going over the build though, trade secrets and all.

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blade of the serpant is really a big secret...pscht!

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Do not underestimate the power of the Theurgist's Cap especially in the hands of a general. Its power comes from both hp/regen and debuffing your opponents hp and mana regen. Some demigods like Senna can get rediculusly high hp/regen values. Theurgist's Cap will cut that in half when it procs. The additional 200 hp and hp regen for minions is also very effective for generals. It is the only helm that boost minions. I usually get Theurgist's Cap instead of Planors. Often it's the only mana regen item I use.

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No matter what there is going to be an optimal route for the hero, map, team situation i'm playing and that's what I'm going to do. The only way that will change is if they nerf good items or buff bad items. The end result is me using whatever is optimal.

This game needs a core group of people who understand the game to collaborate and help push it along because I can't tell how overpowered or underpowered certain heros are because I've never played against anyone who knows how to play the game. I just pick a hero, pick some items, shit on them, once they leave put the speed to +10 and end the game and repeat until im bored.

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Quoting KOREAslayer,

reply 16

Every time I read the forums I'm reminded why there's no competition in demigod. You buy the items that fit your build, pick the favor item that fits your build, choose a hero that fits your team and choose citadel upgrades that fit the moment. These choices are what highlights the massively bad people in the game.

No matter what there is going to be an optimal route for the hero, map, team situation i'm playing and that's what I'm going to do. The only way that will change is if they nerf good items or buff bad items. The end result is me using whatever is optimal.

This game needs a core group of people who understand the game to collaborate and help push it along because I can't tell how overpowered or underpowered certain heros are because I've never played against anyone who knows how to play the game. I just pick a hero, pick some items, shit on them, once they leave put the speed to +10 and end the game and repeat until im bored.

I get what you are saying - that occurs because the gameplay depth of Demigod is very shallow for someone that happens to know such optimal choices. The people that design this gameplay just don't have the experience with such multiplayer games and what makes them interesting.

Hence you get 1-2-3 bursts and auto-attack heroes with little to no math or thinking involved - many people are just terrible but in the end the cieling for improvement is not going to be high in the game.

Warskull's post is not about that though - item balance is a separate but equally important issue. It's a symptom of an overall lack of balance and gameplay-depth oriented design in the game.

You do show the right way to resolve this:

The game does need a core group of people who understand the game to collaborate with Stardock/GPG in improving it, there has to be an effort to attract such people. One way would be to actually have a free "core-beta" going with applications filtering people with previous alpha testing/balancing and tournament play experience. Then get those people on a private forum posting feedback and balancing proposals.

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Quoting TenetGW,

reply 17

I thought they tried that with the beta, it failed, hard.

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Quoting Warskullx,

reply 18

Quoting TenetGW, reply 17The game does need a core group of people who understand the game to collaborate with Stardock/GPG in improving it, there has to be an effort to attract such people. One way would be to actually have a free "core-beta" going with applications filtering people with previous alpha testing/balancing and tournament play experience. Then get those people on a private forum posting feedback and balancing proposals.
I thought they tried that with the beta...

I thought they scared every pro away from beta by asking a fee. That wasn't necessrily a mistake - the game wasn't in any shape to be viewed by people good at balancing. The current situation is different, and an invitational closed beta by PvP veterans from similar games would be a very good idea. The game is at a stage where that is still possible, and not that difficult to setup by PR person.

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Actually, you're making me think it may be worth it to swap my scaled helm for a visor when I buy the vlemish. Only costs as much as a potion and it would definitely improve my mana regen.

Also note that this is somewhat map dependent. On a map like leviathan where you start with a +15 mana/s flagm, the plate visor is a better purchase than the scaled helm and the plenor is better than the vlemish if you have a 21.43 or better mana regen rate.

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its already been said but it needs to be emphasized more.

the main point to take away from this is that Vlemish is by far the best FIRST mana item. the real choices come when you're looking for your SECOND mana item. this is where you get into decision territory like Plenor Battlecrown vs. Unbreakable Boots vs. save for HoL vs. just buy potions, or whatever.

i also think Theurgists cap has a very different purpose and role then you imagine it does. its true that it barely qualifies as a stat boosting item, the boosts it provides are so modest as to be neglible. the only reason you'd ever really want it is for the debuff proc which can be fairly devastating against enemies who have built up high health regen rates. the economic efficiency of this item is another matter. i think its pretty badly over-costed so you'll avoid taking it in general. however, when its niche role comes up its actually quite valuable.

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It would be cool if caps gave +% skill damage for the more expensive ones (there is one belt that reduces 25% skill damage after all), currently the velmish cap outperforms even the more expensive ones and is usualy enough for mana, the caps should do more than just give mana cause, cause I think that heroes without caps should have enough mana to at least cast their mine attack 3 times, which isnt the case right now... (SKILL COOLDOWN/casttime AND skill+% DAMAGE EXSPECIALLY). damage skils lack lategame cause weapon damage goes out of the roof, with best gear you do more damage normally than with skills and you can also move while most skills have cast times...

And yeah increase the starting mana a bit, velmish cap is a "MUST BUY" item right now @ the start for everyone, it should give you a boost but just not so huge ones compared to other armor gear. The starting mana should be enough to last one battle but now it isnt enough even for 2 skills often.

I also find it a bit wierd that the gods can wield 2 caps(how?) but not the same ones... I think the equipment should be runes or something (there could be life, mana, destruction and wind runes for example for the diffrent types) but it is too late now (its just that the logic isnt very well thought).

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