Tower rook OP? » Forum Post by Helios

Zechno, that's exactly what happened with me in my latest (shittily stat tracked; somehow I went from a win with 220 favor points to a loss with 5, which isn't even possible) game. The Rook, at first, haed a nice string of towers going from one flag to the other (on Prison) and whenever I would push one flag, he would start towering that way so I had to run away. (This was when I was trying out your hybrid build, so I didn't have BotF as a good HP buffer).

He eventually started stacking towers. Then I just ninja'd flags, ran around spitting on his permanent towers (which he never upgraded), farming the priests he bought (not sure why) and spitting on him from behind when he made a tower farm. Eventually he tried to defend his towers... BAM, dead. Repeat another time, then he ragequits, then I farm for an hour and get an absurd artifact setup, and then I win and the stats are tracked wrong.

Successfully updated karma reason!

As a TB I can understand your frustration. RoI is nice but it's not high enough damage to be a real tower killer unless they're all stacked up and moving in for deep freeze or fire AoE is risky with boulder roll. That being said, I had excellent support on the finishers all through the last 1/2-2/3 of the game. Early on my teammates didn't do so well but they only died a few times, maybe 1-2 times a piece which was really only a 2k'ish gold swing in your favor, spread out over your team if I remember correctly.

I think what compouned things were a handful of mistakes on your EB's part and the lack of a second anti-building AoE character. You were the only one who could really start to dent the tower forest without taking major damage and there were some critical moments that I really think the game swung in our favor.

For example there was a point at your gold mine where I had between 7 and 10 towers and EB used bat swarm to enter combat, warping behind my towers over to me. However he was in range of at least four towers when he started that fight and I just walked back into the pack, which allowed you to hit me hit me but because he'd used swarm already he had to walk away from combat early which caused all my towers to focus on you and I was able to boulder roll and trap you for a kill. He then got picked off by EB and I think an additional assist from Oak, and that particular series of events all started from his tendency to initiate combat with a critical escape move.

Also he didn't get mist which was a major disadvantage against spit and hammer slam (at least until I get rank 2 boulder roll, but I don't get that until level 13). I mention all the things I felt EB did wrong because between UB, EB, and TB I find a well played EB to be the most challenging. The minion swarms scale up fairly well against towers of light and it's very difficult to ever land a kill between swarms and mist. It just seemed like he was imitating half a strat he'd seen... I got the feeling he'd seen a strong EB player warping into a fight and wailing on people but didn't see that player mist and wait out his swarm cooldown to escape because nothing forced him to.

As for TB vs. rook as I said it's clearly not an easy fight, but you've gotta realize I use Staff of Renewal as my favor item and there's two cooldown flags on that map (though I think we only held one for the majority of the fight). My playstyle depends on fast towers, frequent slams, and boulders to trap people who chase, and it falls apart when shatter is used on me 4-6 seconds after I build a tower, as it effectively doubles the cooldown of the ability and undoes what I've designed my build around. I don't remember you shattering frequently if ever. Also I use HoL (and still will after the nerf I'm sure) and deep freeze prevents the usage of that for its duration as well.

Lastly your UB was on the other side of the map in the early game. Without Blood of the Fallen spit spam can keep me tethered to our corner tower, as the ones I build aren't sufficient to ward him off before level 4 and I have no way to push him back until level 5. I'm not saying you all three should have been attacking me, just that your early game lane assignments didn't pressure me. A stalemate with UB while the other two guys farmed my partners who were giving you early kills might have given you a bigger edge that I couldn't have overcome.

On some level you may be right though. I play rook because I don't know how to beat him and I like to see what methods people use, and generally (though certainly not always) it's only double and triple teaming that works against me. I don't know if that says more about my skill, their skill, or rook's fairness.

Lastly though I think you underestimated my partners that game. I don't remember their names (and it doesn't look like the game was logged) so I can't look them up, but they really did get a lot of finishers. The fights may have started off 2v1, but after you guys got a couple kills on me I whined like a little baby and they started saving my ass over and over. I think I had the most kills in the end because hammer slam eventually gets batshit insane, but in the midgame when the game was decided I'm pretty certain I was behind my partners or at least neck and neck with them.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Your partners were good when it came to supporting you but we outplayed them early on. You literally kept your team alive with your tower farms. Either way, i dont think ANY dg should require 2 others to be taken down. That in itself makes the game imbalanced because if you get a tower rook, a sedna and a QoT, it's GG for the other team no matter what, because all of these DG's require 2 people to gang up on them early game unless you pick one of these DG's yourself.

You may claim that mid-late game the tower rook can be taken down easily, but most games with a tower rook are decided by then.

Successfully updated karma reason!

You may claim that mid-late game the tower rook can be taken down easily, but most games with a tower rook are decided by then.

Honestly I don't know what the people who say that are talking about. Early game rook has mana issues, has almost no burst potential, can't chase anyone, and can't escape. Late game mana is a non-issue, I can start to buy the more expensive movement speed items (I had a cloak of elfenkind at the end of ours), and I can afford to buy stacks of teleport scrolls. I guess a fair amount of players take structural transfer or stats or something else which precludes boulder roll and/or hammer slam and they stall out when people get armor, but the longer the game goes the better for me usually and I think most rook players just don't plan ahead very well.

dont think ANY dg should require 2 others to be taken down.

I don't really agree with this statement though. What would be the point of playing a healer if you couldn't outlast a single player? Sedna and QoT would need some major offensive upgrades to make them playable. Rook would need to be redesigned if one DG could push him around, he'd need better speed, hammer slam would need to be reliable without boulder roll, and towers would need to be rethought to interact well with his increased mobility... It would take some massive changes and I think that most people are content with rook as-is.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Wait, what? Why should a support DG be getting serious offensive upgrades because they can already beat DG killing focused DGs in 1v1? That makes no sense at all. Support DGs should not be hard countering other DGs in 1v1s.

I'm fine with a DG taking two people to take down (as long as they aren't like that the whole game assuming equal skill). However, it is not fine to have a DG require two DGs to take down and have him/her still put up a good fight. If two DGs are focusing on one, it should have to retreat. Tower Rook, however, can actually push back two DGs at the same time, which is a bit too powerful.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Wait, what? Why should a support DG be getting serious offensive upgrades because they can already beat DG killing focused DGs in 1v1? That makes no sense at all. Support DGs should not be hard countering other DGs in 1v1s.

That's not what I said, so I agree it makes no sense. I responded to this:

Either way, i dont think ANY dg should require 2 others to be taken down. That in itself makes the game imbalanced because if you get a tower rook, a sedna and a QoT, it's GG for the other team no matter what, because all of these DG's require 2 people to gang up on them early game unless you pick one of these DG's yourself.

He's saying that he doesn't think these demigods' ability to take on multiple players is balanced, so I replied that if that capacity were removed they would need offensive improvements.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Yes, but a support DG also being better than everybody else in 1v1 is a bit overpowered. They should lose in 1v1s to assassin specced DGs, but they don't. They take two people to kill despite also having the ability to keep their allies healed as well. It's a little bit OP, but overall fine.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Yes, but a support DG also being better than everybody else in 1v1 is a bit overpowered. They should lose in 1v1s to assassin specced DGs, but they don't. They take two people to kill despite also having the ability to keep their allies healed as well. It's a little bit OP, but overall fine.

The two most popular assassins, reg and UB, have little trouble with sedna/QoT imo. Once I get shrapnel mines I feel Sedna's ability to pressure me evaporates and even before then I can generally OOM her by striking and withdrawing. QoT's a different story but she's also the least popular DG in spite of whatever perceived imbalance there may be, so I think that shows there's something about the support DGs that doesn't show up in this simple of a comparison.

Also Oak and Erebus are support DGs imo. Erebus soaks tower and reinforcement damage with his droves of minions and can provide a lifesteal aura and most importantly heal via idols. Oak's support rolse are more obvious.

Regardless I think a fair amount of this is moot because balance will change pretty significantly today if priests and angels have had their bounties gutted. Sedna and QoT will have a much harder time whittling down assassins who are getting healed. The rook's interaction with priests is going to be more complicated though. Non-regulus players will be able to approach the towers more aggressively but the rook will recover more quickly behind them as well, so I'm not sure how it'll pan out.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Yeah, QoT really has the problem that 'not dying' isn't the same as 'killing'. She is almost always the worst partner I've had, and when I've played her (A lot recently) she just doesn't add much to group fights. So very sad.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Yeah, it's a shame with QoT because she really is 'almost there' as far as being a strong DG goes. Ground Spikes and Spike Wave do respectable damage and having aranged attack is really handy. I really think something as subtle as adding a mana regen component to compost would improve her popularity.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Obscenetor,

The two most popular assassins, reg and UB, have little trouble with sedna/QoT imo. Once I get shrapnel mines I feel Sedna's ability to pressure me evaporates and even before then I can generally OOM her by striking and withdrawing. QoT's a different story but she's also the least popular DG in spite of whatever perceived imbalance there may be, so I think that shows there's something about the support DGs that doesn't show up in this simple of a comparison.

I don't know where youre getting that. Besides Tower Rook sitting in his farm, Sedna wrecks everyone 1v1 until late game, no exceptions. And even then there are only a couple DGs (Oak, UB) that beat her in a straight fight.

Now on to Malski's point, should a "support DG" be able to do that? I personally find that categorization a bit objectionable and similarly arbitrary to that one dude in the other thread insisting that Oak "wasn't meant" to heal. But if she is altered to more suit a support role, that wouldn't be so bad, so long as she is kept balanced. Right now if Sedna couldn't duel, she would be pretty worthless because her support abilities just are not worth it on their own (heal gets overpowered all the time, wind works too slowly to make a difference in many situations, silence is situational, yetis suck, etc).

In any case I don't think any DG in the game can win a fair 1v2 between competent players at any point in the game. Not Rook, not Sedna, nobody.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Now on to Malski's point, should a "support DG" be able to do that? I personally find that categorization a bit objectionable and similarly arbitrary to that one dude in the other thread insisting that Oak "wasn't meant" to heal.

I think the problem is that the distinction between support and non-support characters is unclear. AoE stuns, single target stuns, snares, silences, movement speed and attack speed auras, mana recovery auras, attack speed debuffs, tower forests to hide in, and so on are all examples of assassin abilities which give significant team support. Late game in a 3v3 I would actually have a hard time deciding between a QoT giving me a shield or a TB hitting the enemies with RoI to reduce their attack speed by 40% or hitting deep freeze to assist my escape (or set up a kill).

So I think it's a bit unfair to single out Sedna and QoT for having having more direct support skills when plenty of DGs which aren't perceived as support characters offer considerable boosts to their team.

But if she is altered to more suit a support role, that wouldn't be so bad, so long as she is kept balanced.

I disagree here. The nature of this game makes it impractical to follow someone around at all times. Every DG needs to be able to defend themselves and defeat enemies without someone to buff or heal, especially with 2v2 matches on maps multiple creep lanes. I really think the pure support role is a dated concept that doesn't fit games which require playeres to be autonomous even a fraction of the time.

Successfully updated karma reason!

The problem with tower spamming rooks is that as a lvl 12 UB I could kill towers in 3 hits.

I had enough hp to shrug off the tower damage and even after all the towers were set up i could just harrass him with spit while i ran around killing his towers.

The strategy is ok for the first 10 lvls or so, but afterwards the towers just aren't that much of a detterent and you've commited to a strategy that does not work in the long term.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Tower rook is broken. GG.

Successfully updated karma reason!

"Honestly I don't know what the people who say that are talking about. Early game rook has mana issues, has almost no burst potential, can't chase anyone, and can't escape."

Tower rook doesn't need to burst, doesn't need to chase, and doesn't need to escape. He just holds the flags so his team gets war rank, then buys giants in 15 minutes when the other team can only get angels and wins the game.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Bolognacicle,

reply 15

Tower rook doesn't need to burst, doesn't need to chase, and doesn't need to escape. He just holds the flags so his team gets war rank, then buys giants in 15 minutes when the other team can only get angels and wins the game.

How the hell is he going to get 16200 gold in 15 minutes when all he's doing is camping in one spot? That strategy would only work against idiots who decide to charge into a tower farm at level 3 when they have no decent armor or health and feed him gold. In other words, it won't work against a half decent player.

Successfully updated karma reason!

"How the hell is he going to get 16200 gold in 15 minutes"

Because he is playing on a team and they have money too. Tower rook is broken GG.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Bolognacicle,

reply 17

Because he is playing on a team and they have money too. Tower rook is broken GG.

So what? Since Rook is just sitting in one spot he has virtually no gold to contribute to the citadel in comparison to a DG who is actually going out and getting kills. So in a 2v2 game there is only 1 person buying the upgrades while the other team has 2 people.

Successfully updated karma reason!

kwm1800

Join Date 03/2008

+26

Quoting SoFFacet,

reply 21

Quoting Helios, reply 12Just played a game with 3 friends on vent. We outplayed the shit out of them, their Oak was 2 levels lower than us and the Erebus was feeding us a few kills. They had 1 tower rook who pulled the weight of his teams failures and won the game for them. Thats the problem with tower rooks, they're way too powerful.

And dont blame it on my friends, we only lose games when we're against tower rooks, and we NEVER lose games when we have a tower rook on our team.
Played a 3v3 last night with a friend and 4 pubs. The other guy on our team was a tower rook. My friend and I outplayed the shit out of them. We had 2:1 K:D ratios, +2 war rank and +2 level advantage all game. During this time our rook did nothing of consequence, but that didn't seem like it was going to matter. Then he started dying a lot, giving back our kill advantage. We tried holding his hand in his tower farm, but that only gave back our level and rank advantage. He was completely incapable of escaping once attacked, or contributing anything to large battles. By endgame it was basically 2v3. I've experienced this multiple times, actually, but last night's game was the worst example.

Seriously, why do people play Rook? How can anyone possibly think he might be OP? He can't run, he can't chase, he doesn't deal good damage except in very specific circumstances, and he doesn't have any particularly inspiring abilities. He's a stinking pile of low-tier crap, and I refuse to play any more games with one on my team.

This post, and many others here still have no clue how rook works, and players just do not play Rook in correct way, AND the players also don't know how to deal with rook (both with and against.) Let me give some advice after eating some food.

Successfully updated karma reason!

"So what? Since Rook is just sitting in one spot he has virtually no gold to contribute to the citadel in comparison to a DG who is actually going out and getting kills. So in a 2v2 game there is only 1 person buying the upgrades while the other team has 2 people."

Gold doesn't buy troops to save your base if your war rank is frickin 4/5 and theirs is 8/9/10. This is assuming your team is half-decent and can hold the other flags.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Bolognacicle,

reply 20

Gold doesn't buy troops to save your base if your war rank is frickin 4/5 and theirs is 8/9/10. This is assuming your team is half-decent and can hold the other flags.

So you're camping out in one spot, and expecting your teammate(s) to hold all the other flags when he's(they're) outnumbered? Especially considering your camping in one spot is going to give the enemy team less places to roam and increase the likelihood that they'll be traveling together?

Brilliant....

Successfully updated karma reason!

Yes, except brilliant teammates either A) keep ramming themselves into his towers and dying or leave him alone, letting him push to your portal/gold flags. Then they try and respond, where you take all of the flags back they might have gotten.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Bolognacicle,

reply 22

Yes, except brilliant teammates either A) keep ramming themselves into his towers and dying or leave him alone, letting him push to your portal/gold flags. Then they try and respond, where you take all of the flags back they might have gotten.

Firstly, Rook's teammate(s) will either be on his(their) death timer due to being outnumbered or be underleveled from having no places to farm creeps. So you go and kill Rook, then go back and capture the flags, killing his teammate(s) if they try to stop you. They had 1 or 2 flags for about 10 seconds, but now you have all of them for 30. Hell, you could just lock the flags before going to kill Rook.

Successfully updated karma reason!

"So you go and kill Rook"

-can't be done.

Tower rook wins GG.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Bolognacicle,

reply 24

-can't be done.

Tower rook wins GG.

That right there is why you and many like you will never beat a tower Rook or any other DG you have trouble with. You refuse to adjust and learn the counters, so you fail. Badly.

Successfully updated karma reason!