minion swarm » Forum Post by RentheUnclean

Quoting Teseer,

There's not much you can do. I've done a minion build Oak that just feels...unfair. I think minions need a complete rework.

Either:

A: Minions have a very SLIGHT impact on the game if you dont spec into them
B: Minions are downright cheap if you spec into them.

I can't think of a good middle ground though.

The answer is less morale points available, maybe make the morale line have 3-4 points max.

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Quoting MABManZ,

reply 1

Quoting Teseer,
reply 16
There's not much you can do. I've done a minion build Oak that just feels...unfair. I think minions need a complete rework.

Either:

A: Minions have a very SLIGHT impact on the game if you dont spec into them
B: Minions are downright cheap if you spec into them.

I can't think of a good middle ground though.

The answer is less morale points available, maybe make the morale line have 3-4 points max.

I would think a possible solution is to make morale a radius skill. As in, minions are outside of the radius? They get no morale.

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The most reasonable solution is probably to just put a range limit on items and skills which affect minions. Something like 50 yards would be enough to allow minions to still chase independently of the master without crossing the whole map.

That being said I bet it would take a pretty massive overhaul of the way those buffs work, so it's unlikely it'll happen.

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What if there was a range limit to get exp/gold? Meaning, if the minion dies farther away than X yards from its master then it yields exp/gold. If it is in close proximity to the master then it is worth nothing.

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Being able to replace / build permaent towers would help.

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The minions aren't what's the problem, its the Horn of Battle. It allows minions to ignore towers and most AoE attacks. Even mines if they don't kill the minions instantly. And at an early level how are you supposed to kill something that has 600-800 hp that regens 200 hp each second for 10 seconds? You'd need 2-3 demigods on each individual minion just to kill them. The point of this buid isn't for the minions to survive for long. They only need to live for around their 10seconds to do some serious damage to any structure, not just the citadel.

Maybe the Horn of Battle could only do 100 hp for 10 seconds or 50 hp for 20 seconds. Or just be 200 hp/s for 5 seconds.

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Quoting TDude,

reply 4

What if there was a range limit to get exp/gold? Meaning, if the minion dies farther away than X yards from its master then it yields exp/gold. If it is in close proximity to the master then it is worth nothing.

I'm actually pretty sure that this is already the case.

Being able to replace / build permaent towers would help.

Not really. With the "horn of battle" favor item, your minions can basically ignore tower damage for 10 full seconds. With that, you can either go destroy a tower almost instantly, or you can just run right past the towers to the citadel.

The most reasonable solution is probably to just put a range limit on items and skills which affect minions

yeh that might help.

Maybe the Horn of Battle could only do 100 hp for 10 seconds or 50 hp for 20 seconds. Or just be 200 hp/s for 5 seconds.

not a bad idea either

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It doesn't seem to be anywhere near as effective when you're against an organised team on a map that's not Levi.

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It works on all maps. Just it works on Levi best. Some maps they just have to use 2 waves to kill the 2 closest towers first. But within 3 minutes thats taken care of and on to the citadel.

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Quoting regabond,

reply 9

It works on all maps. Just it works on Levi best. Some maps they just have to use 2 waves to kill the 2 closest towers first. But within 3 minutes thats taken care of and on to the citadel.

It's not that easy. Frost Torchy can derail almost the entire benefit of the horn starting at level 5. Erebus can at level 4. Two levels of building health totally derails this as well. Please don't use noob stomping as a metric for how powerful something is.

The problem with Leviathan is that the citadel is protected by a single fortress and tower. If there were more towers near the Citadel this would not work nearly as well.

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In general, Leviathan could use a few more towers, I think. It is a big map with very little defenses on it.

I find the strategy as a whole to be rather amusing. I myself have just recently started to appreciate the more 'swarmy' minions, like nightcrawlers and spirits, and it doesn't surprise me at all that this is effective.

I'd be curious what builds exactly are used? Do you get massive Morale?

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Quoting Zechnophobe,

reply 11

Do you get massive Morale?

Yeah.

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Probably just takes advantage of weak # of towers on the map. Since it's a 'pre-made' strategy it's probably not such a big deal. Unlikely to see it in pantheon or skirmish unless they queue simultaneously which I guess they could if they wanted to go out of their way to get an advantage. Otherwise.. custom game is free reign for pre-mades. They probably would have beat you 'normal' anyways.

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Quoting Andianqz,

reply 13

Probably just takes advantage of weak # of towers on the map. Since it's a 'pre-made' strategy it's probably not such a big deal. Unlikely to see it in pantheon or skirmish unless they queue simultaneously which I guess they could if they wanted to go out of their way to get an advantage. Otherwise.. custom game is free reign for pre-mades. They probably would have beat you 'normal' anyways.

Uhh it's entirely doable by ONE PERSON on Leviathan, in a game with randoms, as long as your allies don't feed to hell your minions can work the very few towers on the way to the citadel down with horn.

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Its very doable by 1 person. Which means it's not just a premade thing.

I kinda like the range idea on minions. 50 yards would probably be enough. Although I do enjoy sending small parties of minions out for covert ops missions.

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WARGARBHLLLL!!! I jsut got out of a 3v3 on prison where the enemy erebus used the horn of battle and minion swarm build. I was TB and began to show him who's boss towards the end, but my team mates both admitted to being new...so during a momentary lapse of my attention the enemy cap locked both our portal and we died instantly.

It took my team mates a little while to realize that fighting the minions wasn't an option haha.

It was on fast mode and the game still lasted 1.5 hours real time

got the replay up here...

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=507534

a tool for watching replays on demigod...

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=405375

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I indeed realised that fightning the minions was not an option, but I new that already from playing single player tourneys. I do not think I touched one of the minions?

The portal locking was what killed us in the end, but that would have been annoying regardless. By that time we had long lost. I was also surprised how extremely unwise it is to fight 2 DGs even for a moment.

but anyways, the minions probably could use some nerving because that enemy Erebus was pretty much untouchable until I finally got him when he seemed to pay little attention for a moment. Giving gold and a LOT of xp for minions that you can actively control makes you think twice about getting minions, so minions is a less favorable option. It would only be fair I think.

EDIT: And btw, I defended our home portals a few times too.

EDIT2: I opened the game to see what the 'pro's' do so I could learn. The replay hangs at the moment the opposing team's torchbearer drops, meaning that the moment supreme you are talking about is not actually on it.

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Quoting drugfreeboy,

reply 16

It was on fast mode and the game still lasted 1.5 hours real time

Holy shit, imagine if it was on normal speed.

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It's nice to see the judgment on minions has swung from "They're worthless" to "They must be nerfed!"

I played against a minion swarm Erebus yesterday. It was seriously like if I couldn't GTFO immediately, he'd be able to instakill me.

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its just the horn of battle that needs the nerf. Minions alone are powerful but slow. They can't run down a base speed demigod even.

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It's nice to see the judgment on minions has swung from "They're worthless" to "They must be nerfed!"

I played against a minion swarm Erebus yesterday. It was seriously like if I couldn't GTFO immediately, he'd be able to instakill me.

It's not just people's whimsical opinions that changed, the units themselves were changed dramatically... previously they didn't actually attack what you told them to and now they do.

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Quoting Shurdus,

reply 17

I indeed realised that fightning the minions was not an option, but I new that already from playing single player tourneys. I do not think I touched one of the minions?

The portal locking was what killed us in the end, but that would have been annoying regardless. By that time we had long lost. I was also surprised how extremely unwise it is to fight 2 DGs even for a moment.

EDIT: And btw, I defended our home portals a few times too.

Haha, sry Shurdus, you definitely deserve a bit more credit than I gave you. You played well. The oak was a problem for us though. 1 kill 10 deaths..level 12 when I hit 20 (think everyone else was about 16 or 17ish)...haha

*EDIT*

and yeah people, I don't really think minions need a nerf...its just the horn of battle that makes them an unstoppable swarm for 10 seconds even if you are chillin at the health crystal. But I was also able to hold the minions off even with Horn of Battle...but it was because I was a torch bearer with maxed out frost nava at end game, also maxed out every other AoE spell and got cloak of flames. I think the erebus really needed to be attacking towers relentlessly at lvl 10 ish.

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My general impression is that part of the reason minion strategies are effective right now, is because people just aren't used to fighting against such strategies. I remember the first time I played reg vs an oak who just sat back and swarmed me with spirits... I really didn't know what to do. A few times getting hit by 10 spirits at once is a harsh learning process . Kinda like the first time you try to attack rook in his tower form.

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Quoting drugfreeboy,

and yeah people, I don't really think minions need a nerf...its just the horn of battle that makes them an unstoppable swarm for 10 seconds even if you are chillin at the health crystal. But I was also able to hold the minions off even with Horn of Battle...but it was because I was a torch bearer with maxed out frost nava at end game, also maxed out every other AoE spell and got cloak of flames. I think the erebus really needed to be attacking towers relentlessly at lvl 10 ish.

I know I introduced you to minion swarms because I thought it was hilarious, but as opponents are starting to wise up to it its not nearly as uber as it was even a week ago. I would caution calling for a nerf on anything until replays are implemented, people can actually see what is going on and collaborate on counter strategies.

For instance: night crawlers can still be one shotted with mines and hammer slams, and ground spikes plus any other AoE drops them like flies. Ooze beast is nasty, especially with post mortem and an upgrade or two to building weapons hurts likes hell. In addition you can always freeze minions with Torchy or Erebus until the benefits of the horn are almost expired. Since you can hear when the horn is activated it is easy to do this, and you can stun/freeze more often than you can set the horn off. Not to mention I have to run around bare ass naked to really make the minions effective in the first place.

One thing that definitely SHOULD happen though is the addition of extra towers around the Leviathan citadel. It's even easy to march Demigods up there and start beating on it.

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For instance: night crawlers can still be one shotted with mines and hammer slams

That doesn't sound right, most minion swarms have considerably more HP than hammer slam can take down. I would say rook is actually the weakest DG against the tactic.

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