minion swarm » Forum Post by RentheUnclean

Minions are not OP.

The horn of battle is a little cheap, but you lose out on a lot of stuff and early on you will be at a huge disadvantage.
The tactic is only viable once you have geared up in a very specific way, which makes you very weak to focus fire.

Early on you will be extemely weak. Oak only has 3 spirits that hit for next to no damage and his ward only happens 30% of the time.
It's only when you get to soul ward rank 3 or so that the minions can actually do decent damage.

And no they can't just sit in their base because all the nightwalkers and spirits require something to die for it to spawn and you have to be nearby. The other minions aren't nearly as spammable so the damage stacking isn't as noticable.

Minions are very good against certain characters that lack AoE damage/stun abilities like sedna and UB, while AoE characters like torchbearer can be extremely weak to high damage abilities like spit.

Leviathon is a problem though, it does need more towers.

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Quoting Obscenitor,

reply 25

I would say rook is actually the weakest DG against the tactic.

If you said that you would be wrong. The only thing he can't kill with a slam is a top level minotaur and siege archer.

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With these tactics however the minions become a 'fire and forget' kind of weapon. Ok, you need to kill something in order to get minions. The DG however can just creep and get more minions. If the opposing DGs are hunting you down you can run away. If they do not and target your minions, then you are where you want to be. You can wear down defenses and that will be that.

Maybe the minion-spamming DGs will be weak to focus fire, but then again the opposing DGs will find little time to actively seek you out. By the time the opposing team recognises what you are doing they actively need to defend. If they do not defend then you can outrun the opposition and creep whenever you get the chance. The Dgs that the creep-spammers will want to look out for are the melee focussing DGs, and they are surprisingly weak against minion swarms because they lack AoE spells...

All in all I am sure that something can be done to defend against this tactic. maybe it is not so much this tactic that is the problem but it is indeed the lack of towers on leviathan. Who knows?

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Quoting Obscenitor,

reply 21

It's nice to see the judgment on minions has swung from "They're worthless" to "They must be nerfed!"

I played against a minion swarm Erebus yesterday. It was seriously like if I couldn't GTFO immediately, he'd be able to instakill me.
It's not just people's whimsical opinions that changed, the units themselves were changed dramatically... previously they didn't actually attack what you told them to and now they do.

I thought people were complaining that they still don't.

Is it confirmed that minion targetting is fixed?

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As drugfreeboy said earlier, we played against a minion Erebus earlier this week. He would harass us contantly with his minions and chase us away, so he could indeed tell his minions to attack us.

What annoys me about that is that the minions do not grant anything wheb they are killed. Add to that the fact that minions are way more powerful than normal creeps and that they can receive orders and you have a very effective unit that is hard to kill and should not be killed because killing it is a waste of valuable time and health.

This last thing annoys me the most. Minions are hard to kill yet you are ot rewarded for doing so. In Warcraft 3 you could use a hero that had summons, but if your minions got killed they would be worth xp like normal units are. This made you think twice about getting the minions, or at least you would be careful with them. In demigod it matters not what you do with them.

Another way of nerving minions would be to have thier health run out over time, so that sooner or later they die. If this is not a good option, then maybe letting the minions die after an x amount of seconds might be a good idea. This requires you to invest mana into getting new minions so the minions would at least be like other abilities in the sense that it requires constant investments of mana to et the most out of your demigod.

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If you said that you would be wrong. The only thing he can't kill with a slam is a top level minotaur and siege archer.

First off I've seen 2k health nightwalkers, but more importantly people who use their minions intelligently and move through you a bit before attacking will surround you and make a perfect slam impossible, or for that matter even a relatively good one since without a solid boulder roll most will move away from you. However, Erebus's minion swarms are the ones rook has the least trouble with, which is not to say he has no trouble with them.

Then onto Oak's, it's nigh impossible to consistently slam spirits and they're literally impossible to hit with a boulder roll, and QoT's minions are going to be primarily ranged, so it's oftentimes getting a good slam is a pyrhhic victory and again if they're good they won't be standing there waiting for you either, not to mention she has no kill requirement so they'll be back the instant you kill them.

I'm not making an argument to buff the rook or nerf minion swarms here, I'm just saying a good minion swarmer is the most challenging opponent for a good rook in my opinion.

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I thought people were complaining that they still don't.

Is it confirmed that minion targetting is fixed?

If by fixed you mean never fail to stick a target until dead then possibly not, but if by fixed you mean 90% of the time they'll do whatever you tell them and do not disengage the way reinforcements do no matter how much stuff they run past and how much damage they take then yes, they are fixed.

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Quoting Speusippus,

reply 4

Quoting Obscenitor, reply 21

I thought people were complaining that they still don't.

Is it confirmed that minion targetting is fixed?

Nothing about minions is fixed, they still get stuck trying to go around creeps and Demigods (not to mention corners and nightwalkers getting stuck in space on Exile), they still change targets on a whim, their AI still overrides a lot of commands unless you spam them.

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Quoting ItchyDustbin,

reply 8

Nothing about minions is fixed, they still get stuck trying to go around creeps and Demigods (not to mention corners and nightwalkers getting stuck in space on Exile), they still change targets on a whim, their AI still overrides a lot of commands unless you spam them.

You're sorely misrepesenting the changes with this patch. Previously I never, ever had 10 minions follow me past towers and reinforcements into my base, now they do,a nd they do it consistently. It may still have issues, but so does moving even my own DG or trying to set up towers.

They're not flawless but their functionality was fundamentally changed.

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Quoting Obscenitor,

I'm not making an argument to buff the rook or nerf minion swarms here, I'm just saying a good minion swarmeris the most challenging opponent for a good rook in my opinion.

Your original statement was that Rook was weak against the minion swarm tactic. This is ambiguous.

If the minions are focusing on the Rook, this is true. If the minions are focusing on something else, this is very wrong.

I think we are stumbling over each other's semantics.

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Quoting _Shadow,

reply 10

Obscenitor I'm not making an argument to buff the rook or nerf minion swarms here, I'm just saying a good minion swarmeris the most challenging opponent for a good rook in my opinion.
Your original statement was that Rook was weak against the minion swarm tactic. This is ambiguous.

If the minions are focusing on the Rook, this is true. If the minions are focusing on something else, this is very wrong.

I think we are stumbling over each other's semantics.

Unless the Nightwalkers are focusing on a tower (meaning fortresses, the citadel, DGs, or simply moving around), a hammer slam won't hit them all, which is pretty weak. Even then, they can probably dodge.

Also, an Ooze UB can do nothing to a good minion build, with anybody. Spirits won't be in range long enough, and nightwalkers will be able to survive from 1.8k health to 300 (which, with Oozing, would mean 15 seconds) put on their Horn of Battle, and be back at almost full health besides the one actively being targeted. That means it would take 35 seconds for an UB to defeat one Erebus swarm, and it's *impossible* to kill the Erebus himself unless you manage to play against a bad one and have a reg with snipe.

Minion swarming is a very, very strong tactic, and very few DGs have a good counter to it. A range limit on Horn of Battle and any minion affecting items would make it useful. Giving EXP/money for minions isn't necessary as long as those two are nerfed. And I want the range to be a short one; some people suggested 50 yards, buy you can minion swarm as much as two towers down while being near your own towers with 50 yards. Within 25 yards would be reasonable, I think.

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Quoting Milskidasith,

reply 11

Unless the Nightwalkers are focusing on a tower (meaning fortresses, the citadel, DGs, or simply moving around), a hammer slam won't hit them all, which is pretty weak. Even then, they can probably dodge.

Either they are "dodging" or they are attacking. They can't do both. Hammer rook is very powerful at repelling at minion swarms.

Quoting Milskidasith,

Also, an Ooze UB can do nothing to a good minion build, with anybody. Spirits won't be in range long enough, and nightwalkers will be able to survive from 1.8k health to 300 (which, with Oozing, would mean 15 seconds) put on their Horn of Battle, and be back at almost full health besides the one actively being targeted. That means it would take 35 seconds for an UB to defeat one Erebus swarm, and it's *impossible* to kill the Erebus himself unless you manage to play against a bad one and have a reg with snipe.

If your opponent manages to wield nightwalkers with 1.8k health you already failed miserably. And Ooze beast tears minions apart.

Quoting Milskidasith,

Minion swarming is a very, very strong tactic, and very few DGs have a good counter to it. A range limit on Horn of Battle and any minion affecting items would make it useful. Giving EXP/money for minions isn't necessary as long as those two are nerfed. And I want the range to be a short one; some people suggested 50 yards, buy you can minion swarm as much as two towers down while being near your own towers with 50 yards. Within 25 yards would be reasonable, I think.

It's a strong tactic because people aren't handling it properly. Calling for nerfs is quite premature.

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Well its just looking like Erebrus's Bite. It can be stopped and dealt with, especially once we know how to deal with it. But until then it's just a bit on the too strong side. I still think it could use a tiny decrease in power especially compared to a bunch of the other favor items.

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Your original statement was that Rook was weak against the minion swarm tactic. This is ambiguous.

If the minions are focusing on the Rook, this is true. If the minions are focusing on something else, this is very wrong.

I think we are stumbling over each other's semantics.

Given the rook's movement speed it just seemed like a foregone conclusion to me that the minions would be attacking the rook unless he were a latecomer and the battle had already been going on for a long time.

It's a strong tactic because people aren't handling it properly. Calling for nerfs is quite premature.

Minions are a problem right now and I don't think it's solely an l2p issue. However there's definitely some truth to your statement. All I know is that earlier today at level 7 I was getting hit for 48 per swing by some night walkers, and I don't know how unusual that is.

The problem with minions is that they're balanced for team scenarios where you have multiple sources of AoE. I had a game with an auto-attack+snipe build reg when I was rook and it was a goddamn nightmare, whereas one with a mines reg made them quite manageable, albeit at the cost of a fair amount of mana. Same idea with another game I had where I was getting rolled over until the TB switched lanes (it was a 4v4 on leviathan) and would synch his AoE with my hammer slams whenever they entered my towers and they were no problem.

So really I don't know what should be done about them, I have no idea what would be fair, but I do know that as-is they're a very frustrating trap for pug teams that don't co-ordinate DG selection and builds to deal with them.

p.s. is it true that minion damage is unaffected by armor?

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Kind of funny there is a thread here about minions being OP, then in general there are usually a few threads about minions being useless.

I play minion Erebus a lot and it is very powerful. However, it should be, the whole point of generals is that minions should be a viable option.

Interesting is that if you look at the most played DGs and those with the highest win percentage they are two Assassins, Reg and UB. Both who can be played with fairly devastating anti-minion builds. An Ooze UB has the added benefit that all minions in melee receive a 40% slow to attack speed as well as taking damage. A Reg mines/nova build can take down minions no problems, combine them with a TB or an opposing minion build general and it matches up nicely.

In addition to this, use creep waves. As an Erebus I find these invaluable, I will wait to ride in on a wave of creeps, one they replenish minions and two against other minion builds they create targets that stop a general minion build being able to focus with his minions.

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this seams pretty obvious to me, go out and kill the generals. obviously if they put so many points into minions they wont have much to defend themselves with, and when the general dies, all their minions die too.

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Quoting Tenk51,

reply 16

this seams pretty obvious to me, go out and kill the generals. obviously if they put so many points into minions they wont have much to defend themselves with, and when the general dies, all their minions die too.

Yeah dudes, I mean if you just kill the enemy DGs this game is sooooo easy. Why don't people who lose just kill more DGs and citadels?

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To be less sarcastic: You can minions swarm bases down from as far back as your last tower. Even with minions, a DG fighting at a tower is probably going to beat another DG, and hey, if it's erebus you have the added benefit of being able to flee easily.

And the the thing is, there is a problem if your team doesn't have strong AoE. And when I say strong, I mean "either you have mass charm or something that one shots the enemies."

My suggestion is to make the range interval for all minion affecting items 25 yards. This allows builds that don't have strong AoE to still beat minion swarms, by simply driving off the DG; then the minions lost a lot of benefits and can't be horn of battled. You still have to kill them, but they aren't going to be death for one team and cake for another.

Also, 1800 health on Nightwalkers isn't very hard; they start out with around 800 health, conversion aura pushes them to 1200, Hauberk of life pushes them to 1400, and from there it's just Morale. Combine that with a point in Mist, a point or two in Batswarm, and by level 9 you have 10 1400 health Nightwalkers. Getting a bit more HP is tricky, and I might have overstated 1800, but 1400 is still a ton of HP to take down by any AoE ability. Also, around level 10 you can get platemail of the crusader, which brings nightwalkers up to around 1650 HP. It's weak early game, obviously, but the basic thing is that you can easily keep destroying towers and buildings unless the enemy has strong AoE attacks, and since Erebus can always get away, there is really nothing you can do about it.

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Quoting Milskidasith,

reply 18

It's weak early game, obviously, but the basic thing is that you can easily keep destroying towers and buildings unless the enemy has strong AoE attacks, and since Erebus can always get away, there is really nothing you can do about it.

There's plenty you can do about it and if you take all of those other skills (batswarm and mist) along with the gear to use them, your minions won't be nearly as strong. And 1400HP is really not that much. You can always cast the AoE spell again after it cools down.

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Quoting Obscenitor,

reply 17

Quoting Tenk51, reply 16this seams pretty obvious to me, go out and kill the generals. obviously if they put so many points into minions they wont have much to defend themselves with, and when the general dies, all their minions die too.

Yeah dudes, I mean if you just kill the enemy DGs this game is sooooo easy. Why don't people who lose just kill more DGs and citadels?

Yea a good general build is aware of the fact that he needs to leave a LOT of space between him and anyone using an assassin build. If he's using horn of battle, this isn't a problem at all because his build is designed so that he's far from his minions most of the game anyway.

*edit*

wish nested quotes would work better...

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Quoting _Shadow,

reply 19

Quoting Milskidasith, reply 18It's weak early game, obviously, but the basic thing is that you can easily keep destroying towers and buildings unless the enemy has strong AoE attacks, and since Erebus can always get away, there is really nothing you can do about it.
There's plenty you can do about it and if you take all of those other skills (batswarm and mist) along with the gear to use them, your minions won't be nearly as strong. And 1400HP is really not that much. You can always cast the AoE spell again after it cools down.

Only except you save the horn for when someone is actually hitting your minions. Not to mention it takes all of 30 seconds to have another full nightwalker wave ready should they get destroyed.

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Quoting MABManZ,

reply 21

Quoting _Shadow, reply 19
Quoting Milskidasith, reply 18It's weak early game, obviously, but the basic thing is that you can easily keep destroying towers and buildings unless the enemy has strong AoE attacks, and since Erebus can always get away, there is really nothing you can do about it.
There's plenty you can do about it and if you take all of those other skills (batswarm and mist) along with the gear to use them, your minions won't be nearly as strong. And 1400HP is really not that much. You can always cast the AoE spell again after it cools down.

Only except you save the horn for when someone is actually hitting your minions. Not to mention it takes all of 30 seconds to have another full nightwalker wave ready should they get destroyed.

Freezy torch freezy torch freezy torch

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Quoting _Shadow,

reply 22

Quoting MABManZ, reply 21
Quoting _Shadow, reply 19
Quoting Milskidasith, reply 18It's weak early game, obviously, but the basic thing is that you can easily keep destroying towers and buildings unless the enemy has strong AoE attacks, and since Erebus can always get away, there is really nothing you can do about it.
There's plenty you can do about it and if you take all of those other skills (batswarm and mist) along with the gear to use them, your minions won't be nearly as strong. And 1400HP is really not that much. You can always cast the AoE spell again after it cools down.

Only except you save the horn for when someone is actually hitting your minions. Not to mention it takes all of 30 seconds to have another full nightwalker wave ready should they get destroyed.
Freezy torch freezy torch freezy torch

That's the only option you ever suggest that could possibly have any effect. Sure you can freeze, spam 2 AOE spells and them and maybe kill one wave, but what have you really achieved? Erebus will just back off and form another wave in a few seconds, while using no mana or putting himself in any danger whatsoever.

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Quoting MABManZ,

reply 23

Quoting _Shadow, reply 22
Quoting MABManZ, reply 21
Quoting _Shadow, reply 19
Quoting Milskidasith, reply 18It's weak early game, obviously, but the basic thing is that you can easily keep destroying towers and buildings unless the enemy has strong AoE attacks, and since Erebus can always get away, there is really nothing you can do about it.
There's plenty you can do about it and if you take all of those other skills (batswarm and mist) along with the gear to use them, your minions won't be nearly as strong. And 1400HP is really not that much. You can always cast the AoE spell again after it cools down.

Only except you save the horn for when someone is actually hitting your minions. Not to mention it takes all of 30 seconds to have another full nightwalker wave ready should they get destroyed.
Freezy torch freezy torch freezy torch

That's the only option you ever suggest that could possibly have any effect. Sure you can freeze, spam 2 AOE spells and them and maybe kill one wave, but what have you really achieved? Erebus will just back off and form another wave in a few seconds, while using no mana or putting himself in any danger whatsoever.

Oozy beast oozy beast oozy beast

Also, that's not quite accurate. Two waves totally drain my mana. And it takes a while to get a rolly swarm back up and move the minions in place. We played a few games today which were won only for other reasons. If you push the swarmer demigod hard enough he can't raise minions fast enough and gets totally overrun.

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Just played a game of fortress on Prison, and Erebus did nothing at all other than use his minions against our buildings. It was impossbly stupid.

His minions could take out half a fortress before my minions killed them. I was Sedna, with Yeti, and had 3 levels of building upgrades, and 1 firepower upgrade, and even if I joined in using my aura, it took forever to kill them. Stupid Erebus never bothered to leave farming our creeps, and I couldn't farm at all, what with being completely bogged down by his minions.

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