PsychoPif

Join Date 04/2009

Skill against structure

A friendly call for a nerf

I really think too many skill can take down tower without putting yourself in danger. I believe it makes the game really hard to balance. I understand that almost all DG have a damage spell so one could say it's balanced, but let's look at a couple of those.

First Uproot. I believe it should be the basis of the discussion since it's the spell whole purpose. 905 mana for 2000 dmg over 10 sec.

Now Structural Transfert. Not only does it damage but it also heal you for the same amount. One would think it's going to be worst than uproot yet it's 605 mana for a 2000 drain over 10sec. I'll also list Rook's Slam since structure can't move, he can be at point blank easily, 1700 dmg for a good 840 mana.

We have now Venom Spit. 1650 dmg over 10 sec for 950 mana. A classic on unclean beast. and with 15 range, it's almost as good as the other ranged skills

Let's not forget Regulus. I would'nt list an ability with only 1000 potential damage but since snipe can be used from the base I'd say that 1k damage for 700 mana is quite good against structures. He also can use the mines who are AoE that do 1350 dmg for 770 mana even on building; if a creep happen to be there, more money to him.

And the last but not least, Torch Bearer. The most obvious is clearly Circle of Fire. At 1500 dmg for 800 mana over 10 seconds, it's a pretty good hit and runner ability. It also has one of the biggest AoE of all the skills and unlike the mines it stick around for the whole duration so it had a better chance a getting you some extra gold and xp from a creep. Oh and between Circle's cooldown, he can throw a nice fireball for 1050 dmg each for a cheap 540 mana.

So I picked some of the skills I believe are used the most to defeat structures and I hope I'm not the only one to see how unbalanced they are.

Uproot and Structural Transfert are the only skills that can only be used against structures, I think each of them have their strength as there is no clear winner. Uproot can be used with a hit and run tactic Transfert gives back enough life to soak the tower damages. Uproot cannot be interupted but Transfert can be used on the Rook's own structure for a defensive advantage. So let's say they are more or less on equal terms.

But the thing is, while they were design as skills to kill structures, they are not the best. The basic damage spells have much more versatility. They can be used to kill other demigod, to farm creeps and are almost as good at damaging structures. Some of them even have AoE so they be can used for the three purpose at the same time.

I believe the problem come from the fact that they are pretty balanced when used on DG. But with a dedicated team of pushers, there is no way to defend yourself against a quick tower kill. They also free you some skill point because you get both a skill that can kill DG and that can kill structures. Meanwhile a QoT will have a good spell to hit your tower, but will have a hard time getting to it because she has no skill to clean the creeps or make the players fallback.

My suggestion would be to lower the damage done by the non-specialized skill against structure. I think it's the only way because we can't buff Uproot and Transfert since they are already quite good.

What do you guys think?

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The best demigod against structures is Regulus, two points in range and he doesn't get hit back from them, so he can chew his way pretty much anywhere given time.

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I do agree, just like a Sedna with good regen can take the hits from the towers and solo it pretty soon into the game.

The thing is, this takes way longer than a simple hit and run. I makes you vulnerable to other players so it can be countered. But a hero with a litle bit of mana regen or some mana pot can eat a whole tower in 3-4 hits while a Regulus with range will take 50 hits before he take downs the tower.

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Or you could make the tower killing skills more effective at tower killing.

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Intresting post, I like it.

I believe towers should have a different kind of armor reducing ability damage.

It is not like they survive long anyway. A little harder towers would only make the game better in my opinion.

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Uproot is probably the weakest in general terms of skills, particularly against structures. However, people tend to forget about synergies. Compost built to rank 3 at lvl 1 will do something like 50% more damage with Uproot. At lvl 3 it might do as much as 100% more damage with Uproot. So with (unfortunately) 7 skills alotted to uproot and compost you could do as much as 4k damage over 10 seconds, uninteruptable and unstoppable. The major downside is that after using that many points you tend to end up being extremely weak vs other demigods and won't be able to get in close enough to use your Uproot.

Structural Transfer is just fine as that healing factor is wonderful as a tower Rook.

As a TB I'll use Fireball mostly because it really is the most cost efficient skill to use vs towers.

Edit: I would be in favor of upping the abilities of structure destroying skills, but allow some sort of rebuy for the towers at an extremely high price or even exponential price.

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That's also one of the things I was wondering about. If all offensive skill can be used against structures, why defensive skills, like shield and heals, can't?

About compost, I'd have to test it out, but from the wiki, a full compost will give you 3800 damages. Yes that's a lot, but as you said, you need to use 7 points to get there and you're going to suck bad against players if you spent all your point on structure destruction skills.

Take a TB at the same level, you'll have 4 points in Circle, 4 in Fireball. That's almost as effective against towers, yet you'll have farmed way more creeps and have the potential of DG kills. That cash should provide you with plenty of mana to spam them or even more damage.

Really, I don't think there's a need for better structure destruction, because it's already pretty fast with a good team. My main grief is really that it's the same hero that excel at it that are the best at hero killing, making support DG marginal. Most game I've played were against 3-4 assasins and 1 maybe 2 generals. And most of the time, the general were built with hero killing in mind.

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From my post in version 1.2 topic (http://forums.demigodthegame.com/357622/page/5/#2280558):

I think you should increase towers range. Right now towers has just 15 range and let's say it - they are weak like hell. For some characters it's just too easy to kill the towers with no harm at all !! Regulus lvl 2 can solo tower, same with mage (but at least mage uses mana on that). I think the range should increase to 18 (so +3). Beside, towers (all on map except rock's towers of course) should receive 2 times LESS dmg from SKILLS (so single mage will not kill tower in 25 seconds). Only skills which shouldn't make less dmg are Uproot (QoT skill, which is especially made to kill towers and just towers) and Rock's tower drain (same reason, especially made to drain towers).

Increasing tower's range will help too with Cataract bug. On this map, you can take opponent's gold flag without even single hit from 2 towers staying there !!

Another thig is, I think archers (minions made to kill towers) shouldn't have bigger range than towers itself. It's just stupid, considering you can call that minions FOR FREE. So if there are 2 generals vs 2 assassins, assassins can't do much (especially on bigger maps) about destroying their own base by opponent's archers. I think archers should receive 4 times less dmg from towers, but their range should be same as towers (so increasing tower's range to 18 would do the job here also).

Why I want this changes ? Because right now towers aren't challenge at all. They should be last defence of your base, but right now towers are just addon which gives you free gold. High towers strenght won't help you much, because you still can easly kill towers out of their range by some chars (beast's split it's just 1 tower's hit, low lvl regulus ouf of tower's range, low lvl tb out of tower's range).

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Don't forget Frost Nova guys

A quick freeze and the towers goes down quickly.

You guys should try to play some games with towers set to "strong" giving them 8400hp at the start and more damage, making it a lot harder to destroy them, I think it's actually better with that setting since it also makes the tower upgrade much more effective.

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Yup Schobbo, I think strong towers are much more fun than normal. But still, the problem is, you can destroy towers without even single hit back from them ! And that's what i don't really like. Ok, this should be a feature for some chars, but not at lvl 1 or 2 ! Lvl1 for mage and lvl 2 for Regulus is enought to hit towers out of their range ! Isn't that a bit too soon ?

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Meanwhile a QoT will have a good spell to hit your tower, but will have a hard time getting to it because she has no skill to clean the creeps or make the players fallback.

Huh? QoT is probably the best at killing creeps. I think that only the Torch Bearer and UB (with post mortem) compare at killing creeps, although UB only makes my list because he can clear waves without much (if any) mana used.

I think Regulus' ability to outrange towers (Sniper's Scope) should be considered here. It's probably the best anti-structure ability available.

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I agree Daikaze that QoT is good at killing creeps. It's the fact that if she wants to do both creeps and structure, she needs 2 skills while the other DG can have 2 skill that do both well.

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Yeah QoT uproot needs a buff or other classes abilities a nerf against towers most likely. Or maybe towers should have a slightly higher base to begin with like setting them to strong. There is a lot that could be changed, hard to say exactly what should be changed though. Here is what I think would be some good ideas to start with:

--Range of towers increased by 1, so that regulus must get 2 ranks of range to take down towers without getting hit.

--QoT Uproot can now hit enemy demigods for a damage dot, maybe 1/5 of the damage it has against buildings? Not sure the balance here, but basically a ranged dot for queen might make this worth getting, something like 250/450/650 ?

--Extra 1000 hit points on towers from start

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Have you considered removing the anti tower skills all together and add something else.

Does anti tower skills really make this game more fun to play?

Worth considering?

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I think it's a good diea to have DG that are better at pushing than others. Right now, it's all about the assasins, there needs to be a legetimate start to use with the support heroes.

At least that's my opinion

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