Regulus and his mines. » Forum Post by Chaos Marine

oops. triple post.

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God forbid mines are useful.

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Quoting Shadow,

So no you're not willing to prove it? Gotcha.

Mines are fine:

* You can see regulus winding up to cast them. Move out of the way

* You can use totems of revelation to see hidden mines. Don't walk over them

* Don't get into huge skirmishes where you are committed and can't run away if a regulus is nearby

At this point I'm just getting angry and not contributing anything further. You've made up your mind, you're unwilling to try the suggestions many of us have pointed out, you won't back up what you say with a game. hf

1. I never really said I had a problem with the animation, other than recommending a slight increase in cast time to place it more in line with the closest comparible ability (hammer slam, being a direct damage aoe on a 10 second cooldown with similar mana costs, plus talented snares at the highest level).

2. Totems are a valid counter to a preset minefield, I never argued against that (in fact I never mentioned them), but one sacrifices an invaluable consumable/activatible slot to have it. The limited duration on them limits their effectivness as well, but they're cheap. However, if you're chasing someone, you're not going to stop and drop a totem every 10 yards to make sure there is no mines down.

3. I don't really see how this figures into the discussion about mines possibly being slightly too good.

Also, I'm not sure exactly how "backing up what I say with a game" will prove one side of the argument over mines or the other, especially since I never challenged you. I'm a decent enough player, but I freely concede that I'd probably loose a match played against one of the top players who averages nearly 11 games per day with the same several teammates to my 3 games a day in pugs.

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Quoting BobWI,

reply 3

3 games a day in pugs.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if you only play pugs then you are not in a position to offer credible opinions on balance. Sorry.

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Quoting SoFFacet,

reply 22

Quoting Shadow, reply 19
You know Shadow, maybe if you attached reasons why Mines are fine, people wound understand better, and you wouldn't have to repost so often. Rationale is pretty useful in that regard, or so I hear.

I already have, on multiple occasions, in multiple posts. I'm tired of trying to explain it to people who won't understand until they get better.
Whenever I'm in that situation I C/P my favorite version of my arguments and put it in all my subsequent "you're wrong" posts. Easy and effective, and if you're like me then you like rereading your own arguments to bask in their ownage. Plus, it might help people who may have missed the last thread you bothered to give reasons in.

But there's like 10 threads on Regulus is OP OP OP, it's mostly newer players argueing in them. Mines seem kinda OP when you're new, they sure did to me.

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Quoting SoFFacet,

reply 4

Quoting BobWI,
reply 3
3 games a day in pugs.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if you only play pugs then you are not in a position to offer credible opinions on balance. Sorry.

QFT

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Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if you only play pugs then you are not in a position to offer credible opinions on balance. Sorry.

Because it's not like 2/3 of the game modes and the ladders aren't based on playing with random people or anything.

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Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but...

I've only been playing the game for about a week, & I too thought mines were OP'd... at first. But once you get acclimated to the general playstyle of the game, you should realize that not only are they easily avoidable (casting animation, & if you notice Regulus is on the other team, you damn well better presume there are mines in at least creep lanes) & not over powered in the slightest (mana cost, cooldown, & inherent restrictions), but that there are arguably far more OP'd skills worth complaining about.

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Quoting SoFFacet,

reply 4

Quoting BobWI,
reply 3
3 games a day in pugs.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if you only play pugs then you are not in a position to offer credible opinions on balance. Sorry.

Because listening to someone who plays strictly with premades in custom games that typically are not advertised as premades in the game title against PuGs is a more credible opinion. I apologize that I raise an eyebrow at that claim.

Again I stress the point that the potential burst because of multiple casts getting triggered nearly simultaneously is a problem. No other single player's single ability can hit potentially twice or three times within the span of just over 1 second.

I don't think that a large adjustment needs to be made, but as designed I think they're a little too good at levels 3-4. The unique non-linear damage scaling of them (+400, +500, +150 damage per cast per point), combined with the ability to have multible casts activate their damage simultaneously is slightly too good. I proposed a minor cast time increase, but I also like the idea of a duration placed on them presented earlier in the thread. At this point we can agree to disagree however.

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Because listening to someone who plays strictly with premades in custom games that typically are not advertised as premades in the game title against PuGs is a more credible opinion. I apologize that I raise an eyebrow at that claim.

People who insist on random games are generally always lower calibur. Competitive players live in premades, and naturally, push themselves closer to the edge in games than a normal player would. To say they aren't a more valid source of opinion is silly. Personally If I was a developer for this game, I wouldn't listen to anyone's opinion but top ranked players who have a proven track record (im not talking about silly stats). I'm speaking about players who have established a reputation through great ability in game, in a team environment. This is the model blizzard uses for starcraft, and it's worked for them.

Mines are fine, play reg for 30 games in a row and you will see just how effective they are. They're good yes, they work well with his abilities yes, easily counterable yes, promotes whining, yes. If they were any weaker, they would be worthless imo. Reg is too dependant on distance for those to be worthless.

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People who insist on random games are generally always lower calibur

Of course it seems that way to people who cannot play as such.

I find allrandom games far more telling of skill than ap games. Anyone can tool together a combo but few can react appropriately under an unfamiliar or disadvantageous match up.

Playing with random people also requires quite a different skillset than someone you know.

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Quoting InfiniteVengeance,

reply 11

People who insist on random games are generally always lower calibur

Of course it seems that way to people who cannot play as such.

I find allrandom games far more telling of skill than ap games. Anyone can tool together a combo but few can react appropriately under an unfamiliar or disadvantageous match up.

Playing with random people also requires quite a different skillset than someone you know.

Anyone can tool together a combo, and anyone can learn to run away when they see multiple heros coming. However, one of the great thigns about this game is, one player can only be so good. Without truly being a part of a team pushing limits together can you really develope a true sense of what is really "balanced" in this game. It's been one of my biggest arguements against TFT DotA, is that there is too many skills in that game for it to be remotely balanced. When one skill can have such a profound effect on everyone else on your team, truly working those together and pushing the envelope is how "great" players work. I don't feel you can ever get that effect from a group of random players.

You can master how to deal with people you don't know, but that doesn't make you a better player. It makes you better at coping with constant change in your playerbase. "Unfamiliar" and "Disadvantageous" happen every second in team games, as soon as your first teamate slips on a banana peel.

Edit: Rephrased first sentence, came out backwords.

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PUGs and premades generally require slightly different skillsets. I think that premades would require more skill if they played mostly other premades, but as things are, it seems like a lot of premades just spend time PUG stomping, which requires less skill than PUG vs PUG IMO.

So yeah, I think that you should avoid premade elitism until they get the mechanisms in place where premades end up playing other premades almost always.

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Any way you wanna say it, the premade that "stomps pugs" has more team expereince than those pugs. The elitism is valid when talking about balance in a team game.

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You can master how to deal with people you don't know, but that doesn't make you a better player

Depends on your definition of "a better player."

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Quoting BobWI,

Because listening to someone who plays strictly with premades in custom games that typically are not advertised as premades in the game title against PuGs is a more credible opinion. I apologize that I raise an eyebrow at that claim.

Again I stress the point that the potential burst because of multiple casts getting triggered nearly simultaneously is a problem. No other single player's single ability can hit potentially twice or three times within the span of just over 1 second.

I don't think that a large adjustment needs to be made, but as designed I think they're a little too good at levels 3-4. The unique non-linear damage scaling of them (+400, +500, +150 damage per cast per point), combined with the ability to have multible casts activate their damage simultaneously is slightly too good. I proposed a minor cast time increase, but I also like the idea of a duration placed on them presented earlier in the thread. At this point we can agree to disagree however.

Quoting InfiniteVengeance,

Of course it seems that way to people who cannot play as such.

I find allrandom games far more telling of skill than ap games. Anyone can tool together a combo but few can react appropriately under an unfamiliar or disadvantageous match up.

Playing with random people also requires quite a different skillset than someone you know.

I know you don't want to hear this, but pugs are minor league. The overall level of competition is much lower, and an entire level of coordination is missing compared to premade games. There might be some "good" players that play in pug games (in fact I know there are) but even those players, if they are limited to only pug games, have only scratched the surface of the game's complexity. This inexperience robs them of perspective, so much so that it could be argued that in a sense they have not even played real Demigod. This is what makes them unqualified to give balance opinions.

Things that seem strong in pugs are often found to be weak once premades fully explore their counters. Things that seem weak in pugs are often found to be strong once premades put it to use in a true team setting. Honestly, an average pug player will often be stuck thinking that a certain powerful tactic is overpowered for as long as he plays the game, wheras a premade player will not only know how to use the powerful tactic, but how to stop someone else from using it, how to stop someone else from stopping him from using it, and so on and so forth. Premades are operating at the highest known level of the game, and the only way anything can be truly imbalanced is if that imbalance is still present at that level. Therefore the only people qualified to give balance feedback are the players on the very best premade teams.

In other words, pug games don't matter. They are irrelevant, worthy of precisely zero consideration when discussing balance changes. The goal of balance is to nurture the highest level of the game into an interesting and competitively meaningful environment. What goes on in the minor leagues is of no consequence.

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Now that is not true either. There are plenty of things relevant to what happens in the "minor leagues." Tactics/items/abilities which the average pug player is powerless (or unable) to stop will get nerfed regardless of whether or not the "top players" can counter it. Let's look at our old friend the Heart of Life, which the "pros" swore up and down the street was "ok." Yet, look what happened to it.

While it seems tempting to balance the game for the top 1% it just drives a much more significant portion away. Look at what they do in WoW. They make vain attempts to keep the "hardcore" satisfied but eventually just nerf everything down to the common player's level. A much more wise strategy.

Pug games, one could say, matter the most, as most of your playerbase is making them up. (Especially in a game with no arranged team matchmaking!) To alienate those players is to kill your game.

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Quoting SoFFacet,

reply 16

Words

Premades aren't playing at the "highest level of the game" because there currently isn't one. There is no team support in the game, so the number of premade vs premade games are extremely low. Right now premades are only playing against pugs, so by your logic premades right now are aren't worthy of providing their opinions on balance either.

You can make the claim that premades have a higher knowledge of the game because they play in a true team setting when Demigod actually has a true team setting.

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Now that is not true either. There are plenty of things relevant to what happens in the "minor leagues." Tactics/items/abilities which the average pug player is powerless (or unable) to stop will get nerfed regardless of whether or not the "top players" can counter it. Let's look at our old friend the Heart of Life, which the "pros" swore up and down the street was "ok." Yet, look what happened to it.

While it seems tempting to balance the game for the top 1% it just drives a much more significant portion away. Look at what they do in WoW. They make vain attempts to keep the "hardcore" satisfied but eventually just nerf everything down to the common player's level. A much more wise strategy.

Pug games, one could say, matter the most, as most of your playerbase is making them up. (Especially in a game with no arranged team matchmaking!) To alienate those players is to kill your game

Some games do cave to public pressure, but that is a critical mistake and flaw. Usually the difference between great games and flops is the decision between growing the top level of the game and catering to the whiners. While it seems tempting to take the easy way out and please the masses, this only ends up dumbing down the game, poisoning it, and dooming it to early death and historical insignificance. If you want a better game, you cater to the highest level, grow it, advertise it, inspire people to improve themselves to join it, build an online following interested in tournament results, and become a recognized esport.

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Premades aren't playing at the "highest level of the game" because there currently isn't one. There is no team support in the game, so the number of premade vs premade games are extremely low. Right now premades are only playing against pugs, so by your logic premades right now are aren't worthy of providing their opinions on balance either.

You can make the claim that premades have a higher knowledge of the game because they play in a true team setting when Demigod actually has a true team setting.

Premade versus premade happens rarely, but it still happens. I think I've played about 10 pre vs pre games against truly good opponents. I learned an incredible amount from those games. Theres no way to gain that knowledge but to experience, which is why premades are the highest level of the game, even if that level is currently lower than it should be if DG had actual team support.

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Infinite and Jack, how about you guys... you know... play the game maybe before interjecting more argumentative troll posts.

If you'd like, how about you two get together and allow us to demonstrate first hand where the "highest level of the game" is at the moment? We could teach you all about what's actually broken in this game. Sound like a plan?

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Quoting Shadow,

reply 21

Infinite and Jack, how about you guys... you know... play the game maybe before interjecting more argumentative troll posts.

What the hell are you talking about? Obviously I play the game, although I've currently given up on multiplayer with all the problems it has.

If you'd like, how about you two get together and allow us to demonstrate first hand where the "highest level of the game" is at the moment? We could teach you all about what's actually broken in this game. Sound like a plan?

So now you want to compare penis size....As if a premade beating 2 players who have never played together would actually prove anything. Please try to come up with an intelligent response, because the only one trolling right now is you.

Oh, and last time I checked I agreed that mines aren't broken.

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Quoting SoFFacet,

reply 20

Premade versus premade happens rarely, but it still happens. I think I've played about 10 pre vs pre games against truly good opponents. I learned an incredible amount from those games. Theres no way to gain that knowledge but to experience, which is why premades are the highest level of the game, even if that level is currently lower than it should be if DG had actual team support.

Lower? It's practically nonexistant right now. I'm sorry but playing 10 close games out of 100 something doesn't make you so informed about the game that the opinions of common pug players doesn't matter.

Does it make you more informed? Yes. That informed? No.

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Quoting JagerJack,

reply 22

So now you want to compare penis size....As if a premade beating 2 players who have never played together would actually prove anything. Please try to come up with an intelligent response, because the only one trolling right now is you.

Oh, and last time I checked I agreed that mines aren't broken.

I think it was more focused on the showing you how many very broken things pug players have no idea about first hand, not about beating you.

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So now you want to compare penis size....As if a premade beating 2 players who have never played together would actually prove anything. Please try to come up with an intelligent response, because the only one trolling right now is you.

This has nothing to do with penis size. You make the claim that premades don't know any better than you would, being someone who used to play in randoms (and doesn't play online at all now). So I'm giving you the opportunity to find out first hand where premades are at right now. Now if premades were incapable of bringing any higher level of play to the game why would you have a problem playing against us?

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