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Busdude
Busdude
Join Date 08/2008
+3

New Citadel Upgrade: Increase Tower Range. Add it. Add it now.

July 10, 2009 1:00:42 PM from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Because no Demigod should outrange towers on auto-attack, don't give lame excuses. I don't care that Rook can destroy a tower faster than a Regulus can. The fact is that most Rook deaths occur when he comes to attack a tower by himself, by a teleporting or ganking enemy. Regulus can do it from away and he's safe, so as soon as someone teleports in, he can run away, and unless you're Erebus you likely won't able to catch him, especially since most regs take boots, wand, or anklet to kite. Regulus isn't giving anything up since he can get kills and assists standing right where he is, and all takes is a couple of mines to decimate a group of creeps, and since the creeps run near the towers often he can damage both the creeps and tower getting xp and making the destroying process faster. You can't always be there to chase him away.

Lame enough on Cataract, it's extremely lame on Zikurat where the towers by the 2 inner flags are close, he can demolish your tower while in safety of his own, while other DG can't even get close. Once the tower is down, that allows his team to push the lane, which can often be an enormous pain to push them back, especially since the paths are so narrow and mines recharge way too fast.

New citadel upgrade:

Level 1 Increased Tower Range: Tower range is increased by 3 yards: 700 gold (available at war rank 2)
Level 2 Increased Tower Range: Tower range is increased by another 4 yards: 1500 gold (available at war rank 4)
Level 3 Increased Tower Range: Tower range is increased by another 5 yards: 3000 gold (available at war rank 6)

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Busdude
Melric
Join Date 02/2008
+5
Reply #1 July 10, 2009 1:17:31 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I agree.  As it currently stands, no amount of upgrades makes a tower effective when it can be taken down with impunity by Reg.  It would be one thing if Reg got the ability at level 10 or so, but IIRC they get it at level 2 or 3.

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Busdude
Antikid
Join Date 06/2009
+2
Reply #2 July 10, 2009 1:30:44 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

i tend to agree with this

 

i had a game vs 3 regs with 3ub

we out play them by a mile (more kills, more flags, more upgrades, 2lvls higher, more everything)

all they did better was killing towers and  they didnt need to buy much items coz  could outrun us most of times,

we on the other hand had to buy alot of hp coz of the 3x snipe from anywhere on the map

so in gold they could easily keep up and could match us buying units (on leviathan)

altho we got to giants sooner they just won coz when they bought giants we had no towers left and their units simply walked up to the citadel,while ours were wasting time chewing down towers

I actually thought we were winning until they bought giants (it was over 2mins later)

 

so basically all they did was kill towers and run away (steal some flags here and there) and keep us pressured with 3xsnipe (some1 tell me again why that has to have 90yd range? instant teamplay without effort from anywhere on the map)

we lost and we could do nothing against it ,we werent shit players either (apart from me ofc)

 

imo is lame if u cap more flags, kill the most grunts,kill the most dgs, have most upgrades and virtually outscore and outlevel your opponent with everything except buldings(read towers) and lose coz their giants get a free ride to the citadel

In hindsight ive thought about some things that maybe could have given us the win but in reality that team shouldnt have stand a chance at all, seeing how we outplayed them.This gives me the feeling somethign isnt balanced and my guess is that its the towerkilling

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Busdude
Wagnard
Join Date 05/2008
+16
Reply #3 July 10, 2009 1:44:37 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I agree. It should be an upgrade. This would expan the gameplay even more.

200% agree

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Busdude
WickedBear
Join Date 04/2009
+9
Reply #4 July 10, 2009 1:49:51 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I'm on the fence about it. I think it would be a viable upgrade, but defense upgrades are already sub par and a waste 98% of the time, it would be better incorporated into another upgrade imo, but even then I'm still not sure if I would change it yet.

The more I think about Reg's skill, he badly needs that range more than any other character. Pushing it back may be viable, but not sure if thats needed as it's easy for everyone to solo a tower, including minions. The tower upgrade option may be viable, but it's not just because of regulus.

so basically all they did was kill towers and run away (steal some flags here and there) and keep us pressured with 3xsnipe (some1 tell me again why that has to have 90yd range? instant teamplay without effort from anywhere on the map)

Because it would be useless without it, and not really a "snipe". Theres very few maps you have range from cross lanes without getting into position.

As far as your game went, there could be many factors why you lost, and i'm not sur eit boils down to them out-ranging your towers. That seems like an extreme overexageration. If your lead was as big as you say it was, you should have been effectively dominating the map, taking down their towers as well.

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Busdude
InfiniteVengeance
Join Date 04/2009
+28
Reply #5 July 10, 2009 1:54:36 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Regulus was clearly modeled after the Sniper from Dota, who too could also eventually outrange towers, and it was a powerful ability there as well.  However, he needed to be at least level 5, and towers in Dota are quite a bit sturdier (though more important).

Regulus can start his tower chipathon from level 2.  If anything I think he should need 2 points in range before he can outrange towers.  That puts it somewhere near level 5-7, and you give up other abilities to do it (most people just put one point in range for obvious reasons), which seems fine to me.


Additionally I don't think the ranged minions should be able to outrange towers at all.

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Busdude
Windisch
Join Date 02/2006
+5
Reply #6 July 10, 2009 2:02:24 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

I like the distance idea.  I would buy that more than the damage upgrade.  Might prevent a lot of the running past towers to get to flags.

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Busdude
Miyamiya
Join Date 04/2009
+11
Reply #7 July 10, 2009 2:11:58 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Most demigods can easily destroy a tower if no one is around to counter them, many without taking damage (Sedna, QoT, Rook, TB freeze, UB spit, Regulus). Priest upgrade or buying priests for generals can let you sit there and bash them. Catapults and giants will tear through them if left alone.

So your issue seems to be that you can't counter regulus?

Well sure he can kill towers the easiest, but a speed-upgraded regulus will do one of two things. Either I trap him in his base while holding down the flags, or he comes out too far and gets ambushed and pinned down. 

In any case, I would gladly trade a tower for a point of warscore or the 1500 gold I get because he only has 2000 health and gets instant-gibbed. 

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Busdude
angryandroid
Join Date 08/2006
+1
Reply #8 July 10, 2009 2:12:03 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Agreed, very cool idea.

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Busdude
Krazikarl
Join Date 03/2006
+24
Reply #9 July 10, 2009 2:26:22 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

i tend to agree with this



i had a game vs 3 regs with 3ub

we out play them by a mile (more kills, more flags, more upgrades, 2lvls higher, more everything)

all they did better was killing towers and they didnt need to buy much items coz could outrun us most of times,

we on the other hand had to buy alot of hp coz of the 3x snipe from anywhere on the map

so in gold they could easily keep up and could match us buying units (on leviathan)

altho we got to giants sooner they just won coz when they bought giants we had no towers left and their units simply walked up to the citadel,while ours were wasting time chewing down towers

I actually thought we were winning until they bought giants (it was over 2mins later)

 

If your team of 3 UB lose to 3 Regs, seriously, the problem is you guys, not Reg or towers.  There are so many evil things you should be able to do to 3 Regs as 3 UBs that I'm not even going to start.

Anyway, whats with all the Reg hate going on?  Reg is probably a slightly below average DG.  Tower crushing is one of the few things that he does really well.  I guess I'm fine with nerfing Reg's ability to take out towers a little, but it had better be accompanied by a buff to other Reg properties.

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Busdude
insidious420
Join Date 06/2009
0
Reply #10 July 10, 2009 2:34:38 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I always thought it was sorta odd that the Citadel range upgrade only affects fortresses.  Then again, if that one upgrade affected fortresses and towers, it would probably be OP.  So, I definitely agree with this idea & think it could replace the health/defense Citadel upgrade.

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Busdude
Goggris
Join Date 05/2009
+2
Reply #11 July 10, 2009 2:36:45 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting Krazikarl,
reply 9

i tend to agree with this



i had a game vs 3 regs with 3ub

we out play them by a mile (more kills, more flags, more upgrades, 2lvls higher, more everything)

all they did better was killing towers and they didnt need to buy much items coz could outrun us most of times,

we on the other hand had to buy alot of hp coz of the 3x snipe from anywhere on the map

so in gold they could easily keep up and could match us buying units (on leviathan)

altho we got to giants sooner they just won coz when they bought giants we had no towers left and their units simply walked up to the citadel,while ours were wasting time chewing down towers

I actually thought we were winning until they bought giants (it was over 2mins later)
 

If your team of 3 UB lose to 3 Regs, seriously, the problem is you guys, not Reg or towers.  There are so many evil things you should be able to do to 3 Regs as 3 UBs that I'm not even going to start.

Anyway, whats with all the Reg hate going on?  Reg is probably a slightly below average DG.  Tower crushing is one of the few things that he does really well.  I guess I'm fine with nerfing Reg's ability to take out towers a little, but it had better be accompanied by a buff to other Reg properties.

 

Agreed.  3 reg's should not have even come close to beating 3 UB.  If this is what occurred then the blame is solely on your team. I had this same matchup in a pantheon and we absolutely stomped the reguli.

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Busdude
RapierX
Join Date 02/2008
+2
Reply #12 July 10, 2009 2:41:34 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I dislike the idea of adding range to towers, you're not only hurting regulus but all generals siege minions.

 

Edit: I also don't find reg being able to pressure towers with ease to be all that bad, he's usually easy as hell to push back anyway. There are exceptions like Zikurat though, but that's bad map design not an issue of Regulus imo.

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Busdude
lifekatana
Join Date 05/2008
+18
Reply #13 July 10, 2009 4:48:24 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

lol wrote the exact same thing, everyone mad at me that regulus is not OP... what am I doing wrong??

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Busdude
WickedBear
Join Date 04/2009
+9
Reply #14 July 10, 2009 4:56:40 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting lifekatana,
reply 13
lol wrote the exact same thing, everyone mad at me that regulus is not OP... what am I doing wrong??

we're saying the OP is wrong, but not everyone is against the idea of giving towers longer range

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Busdude
Melric
Join Date 02/2008
+5
Reply #15 July 10, 2009 4:58:18 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

At some point every DG can solo a tower.  What I want to see changed is Reg's ability to do that at level 2 while being outside of the range of the tower.  That can be accomplished either by upping the tower's range (base or by upgrade) or pushing out Reg's ability to get range.

As a second issue, structures become meaningless as the game progresses regardless of the upgrades that you throw into them.  As WickedBear mentioned, cash to tower upgrades is basically wasted cash in the long run.  The first upgrade is probably worth the cash because it can keep structures up in the early game, but anything after that is bad money.  It just seems wrong to me that if you were to dump cash into the upgrades to get the highest level upgrade, that the tower could still be solo'd (with Reg never taking a single point of damage).

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Busdude
Daikaze
Join Date 02/2008
+3
Reply #16 July 10, 2009 5:29:00 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I suggested this some time ago, but it was shot down mainly due to the fact that some towers are too close to one another.

Although, I still think it's a feature that should be implemented... but it should cost more than 700 for the first level so that players can't get it at the very start of the game.

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Busdude
Miyamiya
Join Date 04/2009
+11
Reply #17 July 10, 2009 6:07:57 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting Melric,
reply 15
At some point every DG can solo a tower.  What I want to see changed is Reg's ability to do that at level 2 while being outside of the range of the tower.  That can be accomplished either by upping the tower's range (base or by upgrade) or pushing out Reg's ability to get range.

As a second issue, structures become meaningless as the game progresses regardless of the upgrades that you throw into them.  As WickedBear mentioned, cash to tower upgrades is basically wasted cash in the long run.  The first upgrade is probably worth the cash because it can keep structures up in the early game, but anything after that is bad money.  It just seems wrong to me that if you were to dump cash into the upgrades to get the highest level upgrade, that the tower could still be solo'd (with Reg never taking a single point of damage).


Again, if we are talking only about regulus, his range is one of his defining abilities. From what I've seen in games he is not overly powerful in regards to winning or losing, but yet he is powerful against towers.

As to your second issue, the game is designed that demigods and creeps become increasing powerful until the structures are meaningless and the citadel crumbles. The lightning towers are merely a backdrop to the duels between the demigods, and to clean up early creep waves. While the advantage is important, if you make them more powerful you start restricting a players options to dart into the enemy base for a kill leading to simpler and more boring play. I realize that some hosts set the tower strength on high spefically to prevent this, but a game where everyone is safer is also a more boring game.

I do however believe that upgrades should be useful, and looking at the citadel upgrades in general most of them are pretty much useless at higher levels, if not totally useless at the first one. I would love to see forts do some actual damage, as once you reach them they are little more than an extra 20 seconds before creeps target the citadel directed. Maybe even have a super-powerful upgrade at the end of each of the lines as a bonus for investing in them, something like giants for the creep line but less powerful and cheaper.

Another line of useless overcosted upgrades specifically tailored to counter one character's effect on an disposable structure seems like a waste of effort.

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Busdude
InfiniteVengeance
Join Date 04/2009
+28
Reply #18 July 10, 2009 6:18:52 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

As to your second issue, the game is designed that demigods and creeps become increasing powerful until the structures are meaningless and the citadel crumbles. The lightning towers are merely a backdrop to the duels between the demigods, and to clean up early creep waves. While the advantage is important, if you make them more powerful you start restricting a players options to dart into the enemy base for a kill leading to simpler and more boring play. I realize that some hosts set the tower strength on high spefically to prevent this, but a game where everyone is safer is also a more boring game.

I think that tower damage upgrades need to scale exponentially.

Like 10%/50%/100%/200% damage increase, not the pithy amounts they are now.  This not only makes the upgrades useful for defense but people might actually want to get them, and it can actually stand up against the late game creep zergs and overextending cracked out enemy heroes who no longer care that towers are shooting them.

The tradeoff is that they should be expensive.  Spending a significant amount of money on defensive upgrades will obviously only help for defense, and won't be useful for pushing or winning the game.  A suitable tradeoff in my eyes.

Then no one needs to put the tower strength on high anymore, there are ways to get what you want.

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Busdude
StAcK3D_ActR
Join Date 11/2008
+24
Reply #19 July 10, 2009 6:28:14 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

New Citadel Upgrade: Increase Tower Range. Add it. Add it now.

sorry, imo its a very bad idea.

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Busdude
Zechnophobe
Join Date 04/2009
+57
Reply #20 July 10, 2009 6:47:54 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

So they'd have DOUBLE the range fully upgraded?  Jesus.

I think it isn't a bad idea, but like +1 at each level is more reasonable.

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Busdude
Spooky__
Join Date 10/2008
+74
Reply #21 July 10, 2009 7:02:55 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I like the idea, but it should be more expensive and the first upgrade should be available at warrank 3 (so that it is in line with the other structure upgrades).

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Busdude
Neilo
Join Date 04/2006
+128
Reply #22 July 10, 2009 7:32:07 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Hmm maybe not soo much range, but some form of upgraded range would fine.

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Busdude
SoFFacet
Join Date 02/2008
+13
Reply #23 July 10, 2009 7:38:13 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Idk how desirable it is to add more useless things to trick new players into wasting their money on. 

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