Ultimate 3vs3 Combo (on Cataract)

CosMoe

Join Date 06/2008

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Ultimate 3vs3 Combo (on Cataract)

Pure Theorycraft

Oak+Beast+Regulus combo has one hell of a killer move at level 10:

Pentinence followed by Surge and Snipe+Wrath and Spit+Ooze+Grasp.

How-to:

Oak and UB team up at the health flag, Regulus goes to mana flag. UB and Oak play aggressively and use Pentinence and Spit as often as possible. Regulus plays very defensively at his side and Snipes to other side when possible. There should always be at least one player at a lane so that no experience gets wasted. UB recaps middle flag whenever possible.

If there are 2 enemy Demigods at most at the health flag, pick the one with least health or the possible counter (Healer or Shielder) or the slowest. If he gets into Spit range tell Regulus to get into Snipe range (in between the 2 front towers on your side, a very safe place) and use Pentinence+Spit+Snipe simultaneously. The cast times will ensure the right order of impact. Oak then instantly casts Surge of Faith and Regulus casts his Heaven's Wrath. Pentinence and Snipe-Maim will slow the victim (-26%) so that the Beast (6.3*1.15 = 7.24 speed) can catch up with him even if he flees. Beast turns on Ooze while following him and Grasps as soon as in range. Oak also keeps following and autoattacks, perhaps using Pentinence a second time or using Shield if UB or him get low health. If somehow the enemy should escape beyond the towers there will be a chance of a 2nd Snipe by Regulus which should definitely seal the deal. A weaker variant of this killer move can already be tried from level5 upwards.

The important factors:

slowing an enemy who thinks he's at a safe distance
getting close quickly
stunning him
dealing insane burst damage

Spell Damage:

800+(450+990+250+150)*1.16 = 2934 damage before grasp (Pentinence and Surge and Snipe and Wrath and Spit instant damage) and
(2*150+2*140+500)*1.16 = 1253 damage during the 2 second stun grasp (2 seconds of Spit and Ooze and Grasp) and
5*150*1.16 = 870 damage after the grasp (5 seconds of Spit with Pentinence) and
3*150 = 450 damage after the grasp (3 seconds of Spit without Pentinence).

Thus, with Pentinence4, Surge2, Snipe4, Wrath, Spit4, Ooze4 and Grasp2 this amounts to 2934+1253+870+450=5507 spell damage alone if properly timed. Additional Oak autoattack during Grasp and Oak+Beast autoattack after Grasp should be able to kill every Demigod at level 10.
To put this into perspective: A realistic health-stacking Rook (BotF+Banded+Unbreakable+Nimoth+Hauberk+Vlemish) has 6150 health at level 10.

Costs:

    * Oak: 750+675= 1425 mana.
    * Regulus: 750 mana.
    * Beast: 950+1100=2050 mana but gains 2 *(-50)+500 = +400 health.

Builds and Items:

Oak:

Shield1
Pentinence1
Save
Shield2+Pentinence2
Surge of Faith1
Save
Shield3+Pentinence3
Save
Save
Shield4+Pentinence4+Surge of Faith2

BotF+Scalemail+Banded
Priests
Unbreakable
Vlemish
Plenor
Nimoth (-Scalemail)

7620 gold

Beast:

Spit1
Ooze1
Save
Spit2+Ooze2
Grasp1
Save
Spit3+Ooze3
Save
Save
Spit4+Ooze4+Grasp2

BotF+Scalemail+Banded
Unbreakable
Vlemish
Plenor
Nimoth (-Scalemail)

6720 gold

Regulus:

Snipe1
Maim1
Scope1
Snipe2
Maim2
Mines1
Snipe3
Maim3
Mines2
Snipe4

Wrath+Banded+Scaled
Unbreakable
Citadel Currency1
Vlemish
Boots of Speed

7150 gold

Counters:

Sedna or Oak can counter by casting Heal or Shield (Orb of Defiance is still too expensive for level 10)
Rook can counter by using Boulder Roll and escaping
Erebus can Bat-Swarm away or Mass Charm and escape

Why it could work:

If you look at the playstyle of excellent premades on Cataract you will see that it's almost always 2 DGs at the important health flag and only 1 DG at the mana flag. This assumption is quite important for this combo.

Cataract is on of the best Snipe maps (low cooldown, save positions near lanes where you still get experience, quickly reachable maximum range damage bonus positions) and therefore I do not think Regulus would be a very weak point. He's also got the tower to retreat and the Scope skill lets him play very safely. His sole role is to somehow hold the own lane and give support to the other lane.

I just wanted to show what is possible up to level 10 where almost all skills reach their maximum power.

Oak and UB can also play very defensively when facing 3 DGs at their lane: Pentinence and Spit have quite a range and their damage alone (800+(150+7*150)*1.16+3*150=2642 damage every 10 seconds) can make Demigods retreat when there's no healer around (which is of course not the case in most premades). Their 2 mana helmets each let them spam this skill combo quite often. Meanwhile on the other lane Regulus can easily kill the towers with his Scope upgrade.

Worst Case:

Even if UB or Oak should die after the kill (with Oak's Shield one of them would most probably surive), you'd still have the gold advantage from the kill because the dead enemy Demigod does not get any money for the assist.

Criticism:

One could argue that Grasp level 2 is not really worth its mana increase (stun duration stays 2 seconds) and that Surge is not worth the damage and speed boost.
Wrath on Regulus is not worth the extra 290 (250*1.16) damage.

Not criticism:

"Regulus can not hold his lane against 2 Demigods" -> Of course he can not! But do not forget that the lane on the other side would also would be lost very quickly to Oak+UB.
"I'll play against you and your handpicked two others playing that combo with my premade any day of the week." -> This is Theorycraft, not a competition.
"News Flash: Don't get caught in a 3v1. That is all." -> Please re-read my post as you did not understand it.

What do you think?

Is the Rook+Erebus+UB mass stun combo better?

Can it beat the imba Uproot-QoT+Yeti-Sedna+Frost-Nova-TB combo?

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The Regulus can put alot of pressure on in the beginning, when you get Renewal and Snipe the other lane or mid every 10s. This gets strong at level 4 to 7 when you can afford all the mana helms. However after the enemies start stacking hp its over. This would work fine if there were no priests. Priests are very very inbalanced. They need to get fixed. Either by reducing the effect or by making the healing absolut and not relative. The generals are way better then the Assasins on average. UB is like the exception, because he can deal huge amounts of damage and it scales into late game.

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renewal and snipe... a lot of pressure? aha... and where does he get the mana for that? will he stand near the crystal? kk, i give you the hp lane and i hold the other two flags.

oh wait, you buy the cheap helmet + 2 mana pots? still reg cannot do anything but sniping several times. thx for the two other flags.

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Celmare, Snipe/Mine with alot of mana and Renewal works for Regulus, that and Mine/Slow are the builds that do work to some extent. I have tested it. The main problem ist health stacking and general/priest heal, which gives them huge staying power. So if you face 2 or more good generals I dont think it can work, but the builds are fine for average play.

You get Scaled and Banded and Staff of Renewal. After that you get Vlemish and Plenor. Basicly this is a mana hog. With this build you constantly snipe and lay mines. You get towers down fast. You snipe to weaken the enemy dgs, that engage your teammates. If you teamgank you will need defensive measures to ensure your savety. Pots/Orb of Defiance.

The problem this doesn't work is because for most demigods damage doesnt scale well item and skill wise. UB is like one of the exceptions. If health stacking was nerfed, this build would be very strong.

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where do you get the mana in the early game? from what? you dont have the money. and mines get dangerous with mines 3.

with scaled (the helmet right?) you get two snipes off and you are oom. if oyu have a level up you may get a third one after some regen time. and you will not be able to stand 5 seconds against any other dg to hold your flag.

sure its fun and it often works. i do this myself and it works most of the times. but NOT because this is a good strategie, its because the opponents are most times stupid. it is so easy to counter this. btw. better get wrath than renewal. the 2 extra seconds are nothing compared to the opportunities warath offers. its not only the 250 dmg that are very nice early on but it helps to find a fleeing dg out of sight getting a snipe on him.

anyway, if the opponents are intelligent they dominate 2 of the 3 flags and deny you any snipe kill by being carefull. so no kills to feed you. at the time where you have the equip to be viable your snipe is a mosquito hit, they have more warrank and probably got already some kills.

you tried it, i tried it and as i said it works. but not for the reason that its as good as it seems. it works because people nearly allways dont count the snipe in their tactics!

edit: how many hurt dgs have you seen runing towards the reg when chances are high that he wnats to snipe? sadly currently i am the only one i've seen doing and it saved my butt several times.

edit2: the big mistake you make (in my opinion) is that you think good opponents stick to the common tactics:

they send one dg to the mana lfag where your reg sits and two fight your two dgs at hp flag. thus reg can tip the blance in the 2vs2 fight for you. indeed most people are so stubborn that they keep this strategy. BAD IDEA! in this case your calculation works.

how to conter? just dont fight 2vs2 at hp flag. fight 2vs1 at mana flag and keep 2 of 3 flags. if they port in do the same and make a 3 vs 2. having the reg near the battle its a 3vs 2 1/2. of course early game because mines are bad in the early game. it is just an example. i cannot describe you in detail how to conter because it is a quite dynamic situation. but i hope you get the idea.

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This doesn't work if you team is not dynamic. They have to push hard for towers and switch lanes. The snipe should be used to turn the advantage for your side, once your team engages. You won't be able to spam Snipe until you get Vlemish, that's obvious. But you can forc the enemy to come chase you, because you can get the towers down either mid or the side. You can put pressure with this build, but your team has to go along with it. Also it works best if you only face 1 gereral (tb+reg, reg+rook) for obvious reasons.

Edit: I run towards Reg if I'm low and I think, he'll snipe and I can make it. This is common knowledge.

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the enemys can mock the towers even easier.

well, we turn in circles. this will not be solved in a forum discussion. i tried to make my idea clear... somehow. and in the end it does not matter. in rpactice it works most of the time and it is fun. that's what is important

and i know you are a good player. fought with and against you several times.

@your edit: nice to know. believe me, there are not many people doing that. even though quite many know about that but they still do the wrong thing in panic

i've seen top players allways doing this mistake over and over again.

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i agree with you, i come to the conclusion you are at a disadvantage with regulus in high end play... the stats suggest that too...

in good pre vs pre games what you see mostly is: LE, UB, Oak, Sed (95% they use BotF, the rest is usually Cloak)

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Frankly, the fact that you suggested Grasp level 2 really showed your entire lack of understanding of how this works.

You writing this really showed your entire lack of understanding the replies:

My own reply#2:

Moreover one could argue that Grasp level 2 is not really worth its mana increase (stun duration stays 2 seconds) and that Surge is not worth the damage and speed boost.

Therfore I will update my OP with my explanations from the replies.

and btw. a good third dg may interrupt the regs snipe

Regulus Snipes from the place in between the two front towers (max range). A safe place imho.

Regulus can not hold his lane against 2 Demigods.

Of course he can not! But do not forget that the lane on the other side would also would be lost very quickly to Oak+UB.

I'll play against you and your handpicked two others playing that combo with my premade any day of the week.

This is Theorycraft, not a competition.

News Flash: Don't get caught in a 3v1. That is all.

Please re-read my OP as you did not understand it.

personally I think oak should start with monks first. It allows much more staying power early on compared to banded and scalemail imo.

This is a very nice alternative. We should try if they would be better as first item in a mirror test match between one team with them and one team without them. I've added Oak's priests to the item build as 3rd item. How could I even forget them?

Also, scope 3 on reg wtf? You only want scope 2 and 3 when you're playing fortress mode so you don't take dmg while you autoattack.

Scope1 actually is enough, yeah. Thanks! Of course you'd chose Mines instead now. Edited OP.

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Quoting obscenitor,

reply 16

A decent Reg can hold the mana side while supporting. A reg with nothing but snipe and autoattack is not a decent reg.

You are right about that, but since you quoted me, you missed later were is said mines and MAB.

This strat is only good to about lvl 10-12, and then it goes downhill as most DGs scale alot better than reg I think. But many (most?) games dont hit lvl 15 and beyond.

The idea with a staff of Renewal Snipe Reg is not to dominate the off side, but to harass it. Constant pressue. Yes is it mana intesive, but Reg tend to get kills from thsi strat, or at least many assists.

For me items are not that expensive either so as support, yo ucan buy all the cit upgrades, leaver the two stronger allies to stack themselves.

Item I llike to get for this build are (ignoring TPs, health pots ect):

Start: Scaled helm, and either banded or scaled armors. Then either banded or scaled (whatever you didnt get).

Later: Plenor and velmish. Ill actually take plenor first if thats all the gold I have when I am at base. Yes its less regen, but its more to the total pool. Aftet the helms, trade in scaled for Nimoths chest, and banded for unbreakable boots or harbak.

Thats about it. Yes squishy, but tons o manna. Agian this may not work is Super god pro games, but for pug games it can be very effective. You dont dominate, but you are a constant annoyance, and can help seal kills. Plus you can keep the cit upgrades going, while your allies stack themselves.

As far I I have seen this seems to be one of the best uses of Reg. But as states earlier he isnt the best DG overall.

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Quoting ntropy,

reply 32

i agree with you, i come to the conclusion you are at a disadvantage with regulus in high end play... the stats suggest that too...

in good pre vs pre games what you see mostly is: LE, UB, Oak, Sed (95% they use BotF, the rest is usually Cloak)

i just wanted to make clear that the disadvantage only holds for the suggested strategies, emaning a snipe reg (even snipe/mines). it does not hold for a wings/mines reg. this one gets pretty strong and is totally balanced.

the snipe variation is ony a very fun one and gives you many kills in low up to early mid-game if AND ONLY IF your opponents are not clever enough to take care of that. and if they are clever enough you will face the situation of a weak dg with mosquito snipes later on. this can be only be made up again when he passes level 15, getting wings higher towards level 20. but most games are over before this happens.

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Nah, triple stun takes the cake still. nice dps though. but counterable. can't counter triple stun.

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Nah, triple stun takes the cake still. nice dps though. but counterable. can't counter triple stun.

LE + Rook + UB

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I think it is more Rook + UB + LE, orderwise. Yoink, Grab, Charm.

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ok so just to point out that if you use the strat properly u should have 2 flags at all times = wr lead (if they cap xp u push or cap mana depending on who goes for it)

where do you get the mana in the early game? from what? you dont have the money. and mines get dangerous with mines 3.

with scaled (the helmet right?) you get two snipes off and you are oom. if oyu have a level up you may get a third one after some regen time. and you will not be able to stand 5 seconds against any other dg to hold your flag.

scope means that you can camp behind the tower and hold your lane while still AA the enemy Dg also the point is not that you spam snipe, sure you might drop a snipe or 2 early BUT a smart reg will save mana for at least 1 snipe.

Finally, if you play this strat right mid game you should have a gold advantag going into late game

gold = gear = you should have more health or mana or creeps or xp or mageslayer

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I think it is more Rook + UB + LE, orderwise. Yoink, Grab, Charm.

I wasn't giving a stun order in my post But I think LE + UB + Rook is better

why?

Because it allows rook to throw a hammer slam without wasting his interupt which is excellent to catch fleeing DGs later because of its insane range.

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3 Regs. Continously snipe Citadel ^^

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snipe regs are feeders. your basically playing the 3v3 as a 2v3 b/c of reg not being able to do anything 1v1. sure snipe is nice but pounce does more dmg and can be used for the exact same effect + you dont have reg. L.S.S. = ub, eru, oak/sed

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UB ooze, erebus, Oak assasin.

3 debuffs, 2 of em constant, and surge. Really nasty.

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Everything about this killer combo is correct except regulus. While snipe is nice and often unexpected, Lord Erebus would be twice as damaging because of penitence + bite. Also, with bat swarm he can chase down fleeing demigods better than regulus. However, all of this thread is theoretical because almost no good player would walk into a three on one situation.

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You know what would make this combo even more awesome? Not using reg.

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Quoting Splitshadow,

reply 44

Also, with bat swarm he can chase down fleeing demigods better than regulus.

That's hard to say. Regulus can snipe you with no risk, often twice, before you get to your crystal. He can hit you even if your port away. If he hits you twice he might even do as much damage as erebus as well.

However, in the subtext, I'd be all for a regulus buff.

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Quoting SocialistRyan,

reply 42

Reg mines do 1200-1350 damage, often to more than a single DG at once if in a group fight. Using his 1v1 characteristics to infer that that makes him useless in a group is incorrect. Reg has very good AoE damage. Supporting group combat where he shines.

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Fortunately, if I am ever actually in danger of dying by a snipe, I click the sigil button and all my problems are solved.

I also guarantee the average players in a 2on2 confrontation using the better DGs can step on land mines and still kill reg before one of them is killed by his team mate.

Also, Reg's "shining" in group combat is just the place where he it not totally pwned by other DGs. You would do better with any other DG except maybe QoT unless you are a master with her.

eg: You are doing well with Reg? You would be pwning the shazbut using Ereb instead in the same situation.

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Regulus can use snipe, but like Orion said, with a sigil of vitality, shield, mist, orb of defiance, or the symbol of purity, snipe is stopped dead in its tracks. Lord Erebus is an incredible chaser with long rage, instant teleports through bat swarm, armor/speed reduction and burst damage and life steal with bite (OMGWTFHAXX).

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