cherb

Join Date 09/2008

The Hybrid TB

there are to much Fire TBs around ^^

So first of all, why should you play an hybrid TB?

You can support your team with more mana and slow of the enemies (Permafrost)
You have two abilities to interrupt (Deepe Freeze, Frost Nova)
You can slow the attack speed of your enemies or even kill them (Rain of Ice)
You got a high dmg skill with unlimited range if you already casted it
(Fireball, stronger then the one of a Fire build because of Fire and Ice)
You switch your forms to get both buffs 50% Mana regen (switch from ice to fire),
70-80dmg to auto attack (switch from fire to ice)

Both of the Buffs last 20 seconds

Skill Tree:

Rain of Ice I
Fireball I
Permafrost I
Rain of Ice II
Fireball II
Permafrost II
Fireball III
Deep Freeze I
Deep Freeze II
Fireball IV
Deep Freeze III
Deep Freeze IV
Rain of Ice III
Rain of Ice IV
Fire and Ice
Biting Chill
Frost Nova I
Frost Nova II
Frost Nova III
Permafrost III

You should definitly skill the bold ones at that level!

Favor Items:

Swift Anket: Defenitly the best item (15% movement speed increase)

Good to run away or to kill enemies with your Rain of Ice, Fireball or Auto Attack

Blood of the Fallen: 800 HP and 5 HPS (If you need much life to stay alive)

Blade of the Serpent: 400 Mana, 25 Weapon damage

Instant Cast, 45s cooldown, 100% chance on hit to gain 75% of your damage in mana for 10 seconds

Normal Items to buy:

At the start of the Game:

Banded Armor (500g): 400 HP, 5 HPS

Scaled Helm (550g): 525 Mana, 4 MPS

Items to buy in middle Game:

Unbreakable Boots (1500g): 600 HP, 5 HPS, 800 Mana

Vlemish Faceguard (1750g): 1050 Mana, 11 MPS, 4 MPS Aura

And maybe Boots of Speed (1000g): 10% movement speed if you need it

or Wand of Speed (1750g): Instant Cast, 30 seconds cooldown, 25% movement speed for 8 seconds

Items to buy in late Game:

Narmoth's Ring (4000g): 750 HP, 20 HPS, 8% Life Steal

Journeyman Treads (6750g): 15% movement speed and a chance to get movement speed greatly increased

Game Tactics:

In the early game you have to get as much xp as you can, you do high dmg first at lvl 15.

So farm the creeps with your Rain of Ice and your buffed Auto Attack and try to capture as much flags as you can.

When your Rain of Ice is level 2 you kill a complete creep wave with this spell.

Help your mates if they have to run away - Your Permafrost slows the enemys and Rain of Ice slows their attack spee

If you get to the higher levels you can help killing demigods:

Switch to fire form, Fireball, Switch to ice form, Rain of Ice, Frostnova (if you skilled it allready), Deep Freeze, Auto Attack or start at the beginning

Remember you can run afterwards your enemys because of you high movement speed and the slow Aura and you can attack them with your increased Auto Attack (not like in fire form)

If you are level 17 you do with this Tactic 3450 dmg in 6-8 seconds.

I will add an Gameplay Video soon.

Hope it helps to understand the Hybrid TB.

PS: If you liked this Guide let some Karma here

Cherb Hybrid TB mainly on Ice

The weather outside is ... frightfull

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as i am not an experienced TB player please take my comments with care!

to start.... it seems you basically focus on damaging and not on controlling. as this may be a quation of playstyle it is probably nothing wrong although i would prefere to focus a bit more on control.

1. i would take permafrost prior to fireball 1, because i wold prefere increased chances to escape then a bit more dmg, for which i need to stance dance

2. at latest when i get deep frost 1 i definitly would by frost nova before going deeper into deep frost. inf act i would buy it before deep frost 1 but this may be a choice of taste. but to incease deep frosts rank and ommiting so long frost nova seems to me a big mistake as you lose control, and an additional debuff to get damage with deep freeze.

3. i am not sure how usefull permafrost 3 is. i think, i would prefer maybe attributes. similar about frost nova 3. but anyway i never planed past level 15

well, my idea of a tb build i already posted in the thread by yeodan, you already saw.

p.s. i hope my comments were usefull and not totally stupid

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no it isn't stupid ^^

well sometimes i skill permafrost before fireball, but only if they try to teamkill me allways ^^

but with this build you get to level 8 so fast that it is no problem to skill permafrost or deep freeze a little bit later like in my guide

thanks for comment

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well, i wouldnt classify him like hibrid, it is ussual ice build (edit: sorry, not necesseraly ussual, but in the end same)

and the same i was trying btw ...well, almost.

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@cherb: you comments make sense. indeed if you don't not feel the need of changes because you are leveling so fast then it maybe is better how you do. but caution if you face very good players that don't permit you this "easy mode". then more control is far more important than direct dmg as you can help your teammates destroying one target faster, interrupting support like heals and others.

i usually plan my builds against the worst case. if i face worse players i maybe lose some fun but that's all. but i would get into trouble when facing decent opponents with a fun build

additionally i must admit that the control-support features of the TB are nearly worthless if there is no teamplay. in this case it is better you have some dmg more. but similar problems you face with most demigods (not all).

@Bobek_XY: i know what you mean but there aren't any other hybrid options. if you take some stuff from frost it is it only worth to take nearly all + fireball at most. some more fireskills and any points in frost are simply wasted as they are not enough to give enough benifits. so go full fire, full frost or nearly full frost + fireball. that's it.

and i think full fire and nearly full frost + FB are the two best options (with the latter being my favorite).

anyway, i am still not an experience tb player, but a tb killer

edit: btw. i usually don't like habing a tb in my team as i experienced them as the weak point in most cases. not quite sure if it is because of the players or the class itself. but i do think tb is beside qot the most underpowered dg. in fact they two are the only ones needing some balancing. in case of tb not much though.

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- I believe 3 points in Deep Freeze for 300 more damage and longer stun for alot more mana is probably a waste.
- Fire Aura is huge late game, I'd take it over Frost Nova. It's like the best team skill, probably best overall the Torchbearer has!
- Rain of Ice I is expensive at first, I'd try to pick up I right before you get II.
- Frost Nova I. Another interupt for only I skillpoint, If you think its helpful get it early.
- You might want to consider Ring of Fire I for recharging for Staff of the Renewal if you have trouble with other skills.

Fireball I
Fire Aura I
Rain of Ice I
Rain of Ice II
Fireball II
Fire Aura II
Fireball III
Deep Freeze I (can get earlier)
Fire Aura III
Fireball IV
Rain of Ice III
Rain of Ice IV
Frost Nova I (can get earlier)
Frost Nova II
Frost Nova III
Biting Chill
Deep Freeze II
Deep Freeze III
Deep Freeze IV
Fire and Ice

Items

- Favor: BotS... with this all your mana issues are solved. You can get speed from Fire Aura, Boots/WoS if you need more.

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I usually never get more than Deep Freeze I. It's definitely viable now that the cooldown increase actually lasts for its full duration, but I'd rather have the interrupt cost only a few hundred mana and get more AoE instead to help kill stronger creeps (usually 2 Fire Nova / 2 Circle of Fire or 3 and 1). And the ice debuffs are too useful to get rid of through shattering.

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i know there arent many other hibrid options, and that's exactly the problem!

btw. i usually don't like habing a tb in my team as i experienced them as the weak point in most cases. not quite sure if it is because of the players or the class itself. but i do think tb is beside qot the most underpowered dg. in fact they two are the only ones needing some balancing. in case of tb not much though.

i also noticed the same (but playing with tb), and think he need some buffing

Well it is good to see that some ppl still do use hybrid tb: ntropy(if he plays that) & cwsault - just shown at right moment but i'm not sure how good is that build for them - better or worse than ice build?

______

(ppl have already mentioned/suggested that Deep freeze should deal little more dmg from shatter combo than it does now. i'm for that also, but not just that - more buffing with other skills too, please! And also for other dgs, but not too much & not every one needs the same amount of buffing)

... & some need nerfing too (like Shield for ex.; what i suggested to have 4 skills - purity on lvl 10 and not 7(like it IS NOW), healing effect on lvl7) well its just mine opinion, but would like ppl to consider that, and that is just one of ideas i have on my mind for every demigod.

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I think once they fix the auto-attack bug on a fire TB it will pwn

TB isn't a solo demigod, but with a teammate to help you it owns, circle of fire + fireball + fire nova makes it impossible for any enemy to stay near your teammate for very long and fireball is a great killer-move

also the fire aura gives a huge advantage to your team, way better than permafrost (ice aura)

circle of fire = 150 dps

fireball = 1050 dmg every 7 seconds = 150 dps

fire nova = 800 dmg every 15 seconds = 53.33 dps

that's 350 dps without auta attacking in between + your teammates get more speed and attack speed from fire aura

the biggest disadvantage about a hybrid build is that you lose a lot of time switching forms, you'd probably die in a lot of high-level (pro, not lvl 20 =P) games before being able to use any skills of your other form

switching form = 2 second stun, they stun you some more and BAM you're dead without doing anything

the biggest disadvantage of a fire build is that it doesn't have any interrupts and can't auto-attack a running target

I think fire is overall better than ice, but against certain opponents ice is better

an ice build could totally destroy any minion build (freeze em for 6-10 seconds) and a tower rook

ofcourse a TB can't destroy anything 1v1, but make it 2v2 and the minion user or rook will cry unless they got some clever counter

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you take deep freeze higher ranks not only for the 300 extra dmg on fireball. you do it for the massive extra DMG when you use it on multiple debuffs on you target! together with fire and ice and the extra debuff from blizzard line level 15 skill its massive for an instant.

tb build as i described here in yeodans thread can destroy at higher levels nearly any dg 1on1.

just a calculation:

fireball 1300dmg

RoI 800dmg

rank 4 deep freeze with fire and ice and the the debuffs from RoI, chilling and nova is 3x425 = 1275

= 3375 dmg in few seconds

now of course when you start a fight you first have to dmg him a bit with a fireball, autoattacks.... maybe a RoI. run and hit... and then unleash your combo. it is not easy, you need much experience and exersice for that to get it through against good players but it is possible.

if you only want deep freete for interrupts then of course higher ranks are wasted.

edit: regarding the consuming of deep freeze of the debuffs... the debuffs do not last much anyway. better to consume them for much dmg then to have them 1 sec longer. and if you wish the debuffs to stay.. dont use deep freeze, you ahve the option!

it seems quite useless playing ice, or heavy ice without full deep freeze and his combo. you will lack dmg, no wonder you cannot kill any dg 1vs1. then better go pure fire. of course deep freeze makes only at mid, or late mid game sense. prior to that it wont help much anyway.

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I disagree CelMare

here is what would happen in most cases:

you cast fireball, 1300 dmg

opponents casts wather his best skill is or his you a few times, you lose a third or even half your life from this since you have no armor and not a lot of health either

you switch from fire to cold, opponent does more dmg and now you're down to one third of your health

you press the roi button but opponent stuns you and hits you a few more times, bam you're dead

even if you do get this combo off, vs most enemies it's only about 2/3th or even half their life, they'll still kill you 1v1

and then you have to switch to fire again, hybrid loses way too much time switching forms imo

hybrid would be a lot better if they reduced the form change time or allowed you to keep moving (maybe even auto-attacking) while changing form

as it stands now I don't think a tb has any chance at all in a 1v1 against any other opponent

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Quoting Yeodan,

reply 10

I disagree CelMare

here is what would happen in most cases:

you cast fireball, 1300 dmg

opponents casts wather his best skill is or his you a few times, you lose a third or even half your life from this since you have no armor and not a lot of health either

you switch from fire to cold, opponent does more dmg and now you're down to one third of your health

you press the roi button but opponent stuns you and hits you a few more times, bam you're dead

even if you do get this combo off, vs most enemies it's only about 2/3th or even half their life, they'll still kill you 1v1

and then you have to switch to fire again, hybrid loses way too much time switching forms imo

hybrid would be a lot better if they reduced the form change time or allowed you to keep moving (maybe even auto-attacking) while changing form

as it stands now I don't think a tb has any chance at all in a 1v1 against any other opponent

Yes but where you have BotS (hybrids should always get this imo) you wont need any mana items freeing up at least 2 more slots for Hp items.

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Well for that case is Narmoth's Ring (4000g): 750 HP, 20 HPS, 8% Life Steal

like i think really one of the best items for TB.

You got much life and HPS now and the life steal is really great too, because you do much dmg in late game.

Well maybe he can't kill enemy demigods alone in late game, cause of they will run back very early.

They see how much dmg you do, you get your life back from that dmg and you can push them back.

You also push their creeps back because of you rain of ice.

I never used BotS cause i just dont need them .. the buffs from switching are good enough and you allrdy got

Banded Armor (500g): 400 HP, 5 HPS Unbreakable Boots (1500g): 600 HP, 5 HPS, 800 Mana Vlemish Faceguard (1750g): 1050 Mana, 11 MPS, 4 MPS Aura

Narmoth's Ring (4000g): 750 HP, 20 HPS, 8% Life Steal

so thats + 1750 HP +30 HPS +1850 Mana and 15 MPS and dont forget the free +50% MPS Buff.

You got enough Life and Mana in late game.

You just have to try that the don't attack you to much. Maybe UB and Rook against TB is pretty bad and you have to watch out if they want to stun you.

And i agree with you that running and switching forms in the same time and maybe a little faster switching would be nice to fix the little weakness of TB.

He's a pretty nice Supporter and Damager in Game but he's a little bit weak although.

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@Yeodan:

wrong. then you do it very wrong. if you do not have the equip to stay so long in melee then DON't do it! fireball run, come back fireball, run come back... nova, blizz, deep freeze, autoattack -> dead. ofcourse you do not start with the combo, you use it when his hp is low enough to kill or nearly do so. up till there you do the hit and run (fireball/RoI and aa).

don't play tb like a melee tank. you can do this if you have the equip to tank but in most cases you won't. hence play it in hit and run style. same holds for regulus. your micromanagement is the key.

although i said i am not experienced with tb i invite you to play a 1vs1, me tb you some other dg. just for demonstration purposes.

and as i already said, tb is still one of the two weakest demigods. maybe enabling switching faster would help to balance him out.

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ergo, everybody is for fastrer switching? me too! But how much, or HOW?

It was desined for 1sec time between switch - pretty logical (& just look the animation - looks good), but late game that becomes much, because you lose a lot of aa dam while switching and casting spells (which also can be interrupted).

But if switch last 0.5 sec, it would be great for not loosing dps (what i mentioned above), but it would look crazy fast! (and i mind that too)

So i propose, if it could be done, that switch still last 1 sec (or 0.8 sec; will see how things work first), but that people dont need to wait that 1 sec doing nothing (ie. skills are 'grayed'), but that skills are grayed just 0.5 sec (or even less) so that they can order/queue up next skill from mode they just clicked to switch on.

edit/ P.S.: and the big PROBLEM with switching & aa dps & fireball (for ex) now is that late game(15+lvls) you (can)deal more dmg just by staying in ice mode and right clicking(!), rather than switching and using fireball !!! (its 1 sec switch + 1 sec cast time + 0.X time to react/order that (after waiting for switched mode) + 0.X sec time for fireball to reach target(well maybe i'm overreacting here) > in total lets say 2.5 sec >that it a huge dmg loss you could deal with just right-clicking (even if you have fire&ice). it hapend me also many times that target which i wanted to finish off just escaped while i was preparing to fireball her; instead i could have just right-clicked it, and kill would be mine.

That is also problem with some other skills late game (like snipe), and DG should be going into direction to fix that things (sooner or later)

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Form changing is a pain but you can offset the disadvantage a little bit sometimes. You can't use TB abilities or AA while changing forms but you can use items and consumables so if you need to use a potion or lock a flag or whatever, the best time is between forms. I use a kind of tank hybrid build, and if I've gotten Orb of Defiance it sometimes works to hit with FB on the approach, run to or away from the enemy while shifting to Ice mode, Nova-ROI-DF, then use Orb of Defiance right after starting your form shift and you'll spend it invulnerable.

I love TB's auras but it seems kinda silly to devote any slots to them as a hybrid. Doesn't work well for me but maybe you guys can pull it off.

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I also play a hybrid TB build. Though i dont put a single point of fireball until at least level 5 since i think its a waste to use against most other demigods. I rather have a point permafrost to slow the other demigods and one point in deep freeze. I think its alot more effective early on to just engage other demigods already in switched into ice and just start harrassing them from a safe distance. Not until level 5 or 6 is when i finally devote points to fireball. My only other critique would be that you should get frost nova a bit earlier than level 17.

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I find Hybrid TB to be a waste. I play mainly Fire TB and the only thing I find useful when switching to ICE is the short increase in ice damage, the ability to shoot and follow and the mana regen when I revert back to Fire. This is mainly helpful early game and when taking down towers. Switching from Fire to Ice to Fire takes to long to be very effective during a fight.

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