Assassins can't win Genenal » Forum Post by pissanusak

I dont believe its minions. To me it seems like General side has to much damage mitigation. Plus they have some strong DPS. I play pretty much TB only and i dont have many problems with Ereb. he can take alot of damage but the CD for bite and Fireball is relativly close, With fireball always doing more damage compared to Ereb's bite. The healing of his bite is neearly negated with fire nova and Circle of Fire. Once he pops batswarm the fight could be over (theoreticly)

My problem is Oak. A skilled oak player will Pop his sheild just before my fireball hits when he is on the run. Sometimes they will run completly other times they will pot and come back at me. interupting my fireball and doing 800 damage, followed by 500, and Auto attacks. Already im slowed (even with Boots of speed and wand) i still cant outrun.

Its even worse when he has Sedna(duelist) on his side, 2 interupts, heals and Oaks sheild. Even with A teamate helping we cant burn either down. They will survive and DPS long enough to widdle us down and force us to run/die.

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It's monks. If not for monks assassins would be fine.

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... and consider that 3 generals have good damage denial in addition to their monk which heal theml. LE mist, oak shield, sedna massive heal. At level 10 oak just rapes if you have mana at 5000+ he can spam pest/surge like a madman.

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try and play withot monks.

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And the worst demigod you can get paired with as generals is Queen and she ok vs assissins except UB.

If rook/UB pairs had access to monks it would make for some good compition though (lacking monks is the problem).

maybe if assissins could buy monk idols and summon but just able to summon one monk this would make pathanon not completely one sided.

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TB/UB/Rook/Reg can do massive damage vs a General with minions.

TB: Circle of fire and Fire Nova

UB: Ooze ( ~ 140dps/sec)

Rook: Slam+archer+tower of light

Reg: Mines

So i think assassins have some change vs a minions general build. A chance its a not at 100%. We have lot of really good player on each side (assassin and general).

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Everything Generals can do to prevent you from getting a kill:

Heal - Sedna

Oak - Shield

QoT - Shield

Erebus - Bite, Bat Swarm, and Mist

This plus priests make them hard to beat in average to capable hands, while half the players on the assassin side have Regulus and TB. Hmmm,... who wil win??? I wonder.

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I don't get the whole General thing anyway.

Differences are they can buy idols, they have moral isntead of stats, and different favor items.

The original idea I thought was going to be sick. Generals being completely different to play, almost another game! Hell, I remember reading that Generals could NEVER stand toe to toe with an Assassin.

I'm not complaining, I'm just saying if Generals arnt going to be weaker in terms of the Demigod, then why keep all the rest seperate?

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Example : Destroy Fortress.

Assassins have UB and TB.

Genenal have Erebus and Oak + minions(10-20).

U thinks who will win Between Assassins or Genenal??

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Quoting pissanusak,

reply 9

Example : Destroy Fortress.

Assassins have UB and TB.

Genenal have Erebus and Oak + minions(10-20).

U thinks who will win Between Assassins or Genenal??

Just played that exact scenario except it was Reg and UB against Sedna and Erebus. With 4 max lvl monks (high priests or what ever, it was near impossible to get a kill, especially with batswarming away and shield.

Guess who won.

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Quoting Teseer,

reply 8

I don't get the whole General thing anyway.

Differences are they can buy idols, they have moral isntead of stats, and different favor items.

The original idea I thought was going to be sick. Generals being completely different to play, almost another game! Hell, I remember reading that Generals could NEVER stand toe to toe with an Assassin.

I'm not complaining, I'm just saying if Generals arnt going to be weaker in terms of the Demigod, then why keep all the rest seperate?

When Scathis left the design direction for Generals changed. If Frogboy had his way the Generals would have been eliminated entirely. This is why I wanted modding in early, so we could have a "Scathis Style" Generals mod. Make them weak, make their minions very strong. Then playing an Assassin against one actually lives up to the name. You have to get in and kill that weak General hiding behind his army.

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Lets Get Hammered

Kill 10 Demigods with Hammer Slam in a single game.

Who have this success ? How ?

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In my opinion the Priests/Monks/Whatever are not the problem. It's the pure damage output the generals can make with their bazillion minions.

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It's the priests. They NEED to be nerfed. I don't know if they made them heal a set amount by now instead of %-wise but this would be the best way to go. It makes health stacking even more ridiculous then it already is, as if it wasn't overpowered enough already. Not to mention lame.

Add the fact that Generals have much better survivability even without factoring in any minions.

Add the fact that dps stacking isn't viable in this game, so people have weak auto-attacks.

Add the fact that on top of health stacking, there exist blatantly overpowered items like Sigil of Vitality that let you cheat death in the cheapest, lamest, and most ridiculous way.

And what do you get? A fucking flag-cap fest with only like 3 deaths all game since everyone has 8k health, 60 health per second regen on top of priest healing, only does like 120 with AA due to no dps items, and just spam their abilities the instant they recharge.

The conclusion? Every single popular item that gives +health must be nerfed, some even obliterated (I'm talking heart of life treatment here). Priests must be nerfed. Overpowered helms like Scaled and Vlemish must be nerfed. Then maybe this game will be something close to balanced.

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You don't need to nerf the priests. Nerfing all the +hp items would reduce the effectiveness of the priests dramatically. % based healing is only an issue because of the health stacking.

I still think Generals would be more interesting if they were designed to be pushovers without a minion army backing them up.

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I've only had about 4 or 5 friends play with it, but I'm working on a mod that smacks HP items in the face.

So far it's working very well. It makes the game a lot more enjoyable as you don't just stand face to face for hours at a time trying to push the other back. Shorter more tactical encounters are much more fun.

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Quoting Teseer,

reply 8

I don't get the whole General thing anyway.

Differences are they can buy idols, they have moral isntead of stats, and different favor items.

The original idea I thought was going to be sick. Generals being completely different to play, almost another game! Hell, I remember reading that Generals could NEVER stand toe to toe with an Assassin.

I'm not complaining, I'm just saying if Generals arnt going to be weaker in terms of the Demigod, then why keep all the rest seperate?

Techubus just gave the full explanation while I only said frogboy wanted to get rid of them.

Quoting Techubus,

reply 11

Quoting Teseer, reply 8I don't get the whole General thing anyway.

Differences are they can buy idols, they have moral isntead of stats, and different favor items.

The original idea I thought was going to be sick. Generals being completely different to play, almost another game! Hell, I remember reading that Generals could NEVER stand toe to toe with an Assassin.

I'm not complaining, I'm just saying if Generals arnt going to be weaker in terms of the Demigod, then why keep all the rest seperate?

When Scathis left the design direction for Generals changed. If Frogboy had his way the Generals would have been eliminated entirely. This is why I wanted modding in early, so we could have a "Scathis Style" Generals mod. Make them weak, make their minions very strong. Then playing an Assassin against one actually lives up to the name. You have to get in and kill that weak General hiding behind his army.

Where can I find such mod now?

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Quoting Busdude,

reply 14

It's the priests. They NEED to be nerfed. I don't know if they made them heal a set amount by now instead of %-wise but this would be the best way to go. It makes health stacking even more ridiculous then it already is, as if it wasn't overpowered enough already. Not to mention lame.

Add the fact that Generals have much better survivability even without factoring in any minions.

Add the fact that dps stacking isn't viable in this game, so people have weak auto-attacks.

Add the fact that on top of health stacking, there exist blatantly overpowered items like Sigil of Vitality that let you cheat death in the cheapest, lamest, and most ridiculous way.

And what do you get? A fucking flag-cap fest with only like 3 deaths all game since everyone has 8k health, 60 health per second regen on top of priest healing, only does like 120 with AA due to no dps items, and just spam their abilities the instant they recharge.

The conclusion? Every single popular item that gives +health must be nerfed, some even obliterated (I'm talking heart of life treatment here). Priests must be nerfed. Overpowered helms like Scaled and Vlemish must be nerfed. Then maybe this game will be something close to balanced.

Ok lets say we get rid of the effective percent healing and go with a base number. Who is to ays what number is correct and not over to a certain where the heal becomes completely useless and making idols a waste of money? Not ever demigod hp, and hp regen the same, while making a based heal for monks might help against a UB or Rook that stacks hp, but I doubt it will hit a sedna or Erebus; demigods who can heal themselves without preparation first as much. And it will utterly destroy demigods like Queen of thorns who literally require them to even put up a fight, shield is ok but sadly unless you are using it for retreating; than it is basically useles.

@Techubus

I agree when I first started playing this my very first demigod I played was queen of thorns, and than oak. When I first played alone that didn't change. But I was insulted a lot for playing oak like a general, and not rushing in to fight a demigod but staying back and letting my minions fight for me. If generals can be played like assassins than there is no poin in even having them. When I first got the game I thought Assassins and generals would basically be Quality and Quantity, but sadly it seems basically Quality and you gotta be fucking kidding me!

Edit

ALso the way I see it, a nerf the vlehs helm is literally a nerf to every spellcaster or mana dependent demigod; end of story.

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Right now you can't find such a mod, hopefully that changes. In the meantime it sounds like Teseer has the only mod that comes close. Nerfing hp items should hurt Generals more than Assassins because of the priest factor. That's a good start to leveling the playing field.

If his mod gets more support it could make a great starting point for such a project. If you take the HP nerfs and retool the Generals skills to focus on minions (think auras, and minion stat boosts) instead of direct dmg abilities things start to get more interesting. The General will want to hang near his army to provide them aura buffs while trying to stay back from the action. The Assassin will be looking to break through the minions and take out that squishy General.

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Here's how you fix it: make priests auto-spawn at rank 3 or just add one priest to all creep waves from the start of the game, with the priest upgrade adding additional ones.

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Quoting Techubus,

reply 19

Right now you can't find such a mod, hopefully that changes. In the meantime it sounds like Teseer has the only mod that comes close. Nerfing hp items should hurt Generals more than Assassins because of the priest factor. That's a good start to leveling the playing field.

If his mod gets more support it could make a great starting point for such a project. If you take the HP nerfs and retool the Generals skills to focus on minions (think auras, and minion stat boosts) instead of direct dmg abilities things start to get more interesting. The General will want to hang near his army to provide them aura buffs while trying to stay back from the action. The Assassin will be looking to break through the minions and take out that squishy General.

But not all spell caster are generals, so a nerf to vlehs helm will hurt the spellcasting class greatly don't you think?

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What about making priests cost serious mana so that losing them forces a general to decide between healing and abilities? I know this won't fix everything, but as a small single value fix this could be an interesting option.

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Quoting HorseStrangler,

reply 20

Here's how you fix it: make priests auto-spawn at rank 3 or just add one priest to all creep waves from the start of the game, with the priest upgrade adding additional ones.

The first option makes the priest citadel upgrade pointless. The second option is unreliable and easy to neutralize. Creep priests are total pushovers with 450hp. Being unable to control them makes using them situational. These changes also do nothing for the game after rank 3. If portal priests were enough to equalize assassins they would already do so when bought. Instead, you're feeding the opponents more xp right out the gate. This still leaves the late game health stacking unresolved.

A General with 5k HP and bishops w/ 1300hp healing for 15% (or 22% w/ Sedna) is far better than an Assassin with 5k HP using priests w/ 450 HP healing for 10%. The assassins version is inferior in every way. It has no staying power, it feeds XP, you can't bring it with you.

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Quoting synnworld,

reply 21

But not all spell caster are generals, so a nerf to vlehs helm will hurt the spellcasting class greatly don't you think?

I don't think I said anything about nerfing Vlemish?

Quoting Trigeminal,

reply 22

What about making priests cost serious mana so that losing them forces a general to decide between healing and abilities? I know this won't fix everything, but as a small single value fix this could be an interesting option.

That's certainly an option. I guess it depends on where you stand with Generals. Should they be individually powerful like Assassins, as they are now, or should they be fragile but with powerful minions. I've always thought it would have been better if they were weak but had strong armies.

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Another idea could be nerfing the generals spell/skill damage or increasing there damage spell/skill cooldown. At the same time buffing there minon damage slightly to compensate.

When i first started playing the game I assumed that that the generals didnt do much damage but had minions to make up for it. I found that i was mistaken in that assumption.

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