F***ing Sova » Forum Post by Agent of Kharma

What I'm saying is, I'd like to see other caps buffed up to the level of the sova.

I'd agree with this. You don't see me asking to go back to a strike craft capacity of 2, even though I was actually against the buff to 3 originally. As much as my initial fears about them become too strong turned out to be correct, I do think that gameplay wise they're a lot more interesting now and I'd rather the alternatives be buffed up to their level.

That said, my problem still remains that at the very start of the game it's too easy for carrier caps to provide a full combat presence while bombarding, which is why I feel they need to have their bombard damage dropped. It won't cripple their combat abilities, it will just limit their ability to perform a hard rush at the start of the game when it's hard to counter strike craft.

I wrote in another thread the kinds of buffs I'd like to see for capital ships. I wouldn't mind seeing a generic buff to battleship, siege, and support capital ships across the board.

I construct you a map - two starting terrans, with a roid in the middle.

Absolutely worst case scenario for Vasari, no questions asked. If there's a skilled player on the other end, you cannot contest the roid unless you can somehow get a colonizer there at least fifteen seconds before his cap arrives (which would give you a brief window of opportunity to build a repair bay)

I tend to agree that Jerrasul/Skirantra would have been the best cap combo here. The one Skirantra can keep strike craft more or less under control, and the Jerrasul gives you the firepower to bring down the Sova. I don't think the Kortul is the right choice here, though if you have the luxury of time to bring it to level 2 the combination of disruptive strikes and jam weapons could give you the edge.

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DesConner, that wasn't my game. Now I have to go see one of my girlfriends (busy busy) but I will upload my game tommorrow.

To everyone recommending a kortul, sounds good in theory, that's why I tried it in several tests last week against a player nice enough to donate some of his time and play advent against me. A single kortul gets slaughtered against a single halcyon, a dual kortul gets slaughtered against dual halcyons, that's WITH both of them having jam weapons and alternating it. Don't believe me, try it yourself and see.

A single egg will die to the bombers of a single carrier cap. It seems therefore most recommend a vasari dual cap start (egg+skirantra) against a single sova. So you realize you are conceding the fact that vasari NEEDS dual caps in early game against a single sova? Does this say something about the vasari? Second question. What if your opponent goes tit for tat with you and deploys dual sovas against your egg+skirantra? (This is actually why I opened with dual skirantras in my game - I had to prepare for this possibility, or should I say probability).

Darvin, your points about the sova are fine, can't call you wrong. I agree that carriers are a tad too strong (maybe more than a tad, ha ha), but I'm willing to accept it, as long as we can get some other balance tweaks.

So, your opponent goes dual sova. How are you going to take that roid again?

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Volt_Cruelerz

Join Date 06/2008

+115

First off, one of your girlfriends? I'm busy enough without one.. Unless you are just referring to friends that are girls...

Anyways, that is why I asked someone who plays MP to validate it.

All the same, if you get dual Sova rushed, get sentinels.. About 15 should suffice. Next, you'll need damage to be dealt, so get some Assailants. Then get a Skirantra and an Egg. The Skirantra keeps everything alive while the Egg chips away at health.

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I admit that I haven't tried it, so I'm just talking out of my ass here until I do, but I really do think that egg+skirantra gets owned by dual sovas, because a single skirantra can only make 3 or so fighters. This means he will counter your fighters with fighters from one cap, and go bombers with the other cap, and you'll lose. And we have already established that even dual skirantra heal will not overcome dps of a single sova, so you can't rely on heal for anything. A single egg or single skirantra will certainly lose to a single sova. It seems that egg+skirantra will lose to dual sovas. But again, I can't call you wrong until I test it myself.

Just the fact that we have to sit here and brainstorm every idea known to man to come up with a strat against this should speak a little something to my point about the vasari. I don't think the TEC player on the other side is having to expend so much energy and time. I think he just mashes "build sova" either once, or twice, and then goes about his game without having to worry so much about what the vasari player comes with. All the burden is on the vasari player, it seems.

EDIT: Yes, one of my girlfriends. I'm a lucky guy but I "created my own luck" by specifically moving to a place where this is possible. Not only that, they are all exceedingly hot too. One of my girlfriends last year was a model, but alas I lost her. Doesn't matter though, the others look just like her

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Volt_Cruelerz

Join Date 06/2008

+115

I like thinking though... Its more challenging... Got in a match the other day with this heavily entrenched AI that I thought was impenetrable (I just got entrenchment so I am still learning the ins and outs of it), so I went to bed and before falling asleep, I figured out a way to win. The following morning I tried it and was successful.

All the same you can't win any fight with capitals alone. You need a fleet. The Assailants and Sentinels ought to be quite good at both defeating their squads (since the recommended number is 1 flak per squad) because your sentinels would outnumber them 3 to 1. Just keep your egg out of range unless using nano, or if you used a Kortul instead of the egg, keep the Kortul beside the Skirantra and have your bombers just inside the radius of RC so that the MB's can't hit you. Then, give the Kortul jam weapons to keep their fighters neutralized while your bombers rampage at will. If possible, level up so you can give the Skirantra Scramble Bombers.

Word to the wise, if you value your girlfriends for more than their looks, they might stay around a bit longer.

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Quoting Agent of Kharma,

reply 27

DesConner, that wasn't my game. Now I have to go see one of my girlfriends (busy busy) but I will upload my game tommorrow.

This will be interesting to see....because it is highly unlikely. You make a post literally 5 mins after the chap in that game quits due to losing a carrier cap to a sova and then complaining ingame about the Sova being unbalanced as it beat two Vasari carrier caps. Plus your account of the frigs and roids are the same as the game I posted which occurred on the same day, then ended and was followed by this thread. Coincidence? Well, I guess we will find out when you post the replay but I for one will call BS to the above quote. If I am wrong I will apologise.

IN THE MEAN TIME WHY DONT YOU TELL US ALL WHO IT WAS YOU PLAYED AGAINST.

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Darvin I really like the changes to the caps you prupose but I dont know about such an increase to dps to the battleships.I think a 40-50% increase and then hull and armor increase.Right now all caps hulls and armor are pretty similiar which I never understood.Anyway I think a carrier cap would slaughter all other caps based on dps no abilities involved.I think it should be that way but at least battleshups shouls stand out for durability and straight dps.I like the huge am reserves for supports thats a good idea.Up the siege damage for sige caps and do something with te rev.It needs a new ability that makes it useful.I say get rid of its spy ability.I mean you dont really need it.Scouts are cheap.Only thing its good for is looking for sw.

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Darvin I really like the changes to the caps you prupose but I dont know about such an increase to dps to the battleships

I just pulled a somewhat reasonable number out of my hat. A 50% increase along with a small hull/armour increase would also work wonders.

Up the siege damage for sige caps

While the Revelation could use help to become a true siege cap (currently it's a support cap with high bombard damage), I am vehemently against improving bombard capabilities for either Vulkoras or Marza. These guys are already monsterously powerful at these roles and once you've maxed out their bombard capacity they can make planets melt like butter.

As far as the Revelation goes, it needs work. I think clairvoyance is fine, if only because it's a global ability that can be invaluable if you need to spy on a specific planet at a specific time, but it is overly specialized I will agree. Guidance is another problem; very few Advent abilities actually have any cooldown issues whatsoever. Even the brief delay between shots of shield restore and telekinetic push usually doesn't amount to anything.

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you get dual Sova rushed, get sentinels.. About 15 should suffice. Next, you'll need damage to be dealt, so get some Assailants. Then get a Skirantra and an Egg. The Skirantra keeps everything alive while the Egg chips away at health.

I hate it when people try to justify BS with lame excuses. One Sova needs to be countered by two cap ships? Two Sovas need to be countered by two Vasari cap ships AND a small fleet? Are you people for real?

This is completely unreasonable. A faction should NOT need to spend more money (twice in fact) then the enemy to counter what they are doing.

The Sova despite being an assualt carrier should not have substantially higher DPS then the Skirantra. There is no reason why this should be so. I don't think that the Sova should be nerfed, only that the Skirantra gets a buff.

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Quoting JuleTron,

reply 34

The Sova despite being an assualt carrier should not have substantially higher DPS then the Skirantra. There is no reason why this should be so. I don't think that the Sova should be nerfed, only that the Skirantra gets a buff.

I agree. The Skirantra is in an extremely strange position for capital ship. It has the lowest DPS of any (21 base) and is a side-firing ship. In comparison, the Sova has the lowest DPS for a TEC capital; 33. While I'm fine with Sova's being stronger attack-wise, the Skirantra needs some boosts to its abilities to make up for its lackluster DPS.

Quoting Darvin3,

reply 33

I just pulled a somewhat reasonable number out of my hat. A 50% increase along with a small hull/armour increase would also work wonders.

While this would make the Radiance a lot more balanced, I'd worry that the Kortul could become too powerful with Power Surge if it gained a DPS increase.

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Is the Skirantra card accurate though? It says 9 Wave but from watching it, this must be each side? 18 Wave would be a base dps of 30, and all the Vasari caps have slightly less base dps than those of other factions. The Antorak is also dubious- base dps 34 would be very much lower than the equivalent ships for other factions- though only if the card is accurate?

The Skirantra is a very powerful ship, and I've yet to come across any evidence that it is disadvantaged against a Sova. As well as repair cloud, the level 6 ability is far better. Some skill at micro helps- like all Vasari. If the early Vasari units get a buff the Skirantra will become even more effective.

The armour on the battleships has always concerned me- it would seem likely that TEC purpose built battleships would have far more armour than the civilian conversions. The firepower is also on the low side- Kol 51, Kortul 48 and Radiance 51 base dps.. compared to 40-50 for most of the others. A 25% increase would allow more of an edge. An armour buff on the Radiance might compensate for the increased weapons on the Kortul?

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While this would make the Radiance a lot more balanced, I'd worry that the Kortul could become too powerful with Power Surge if it gained a DPS increase.

The fact is that NO ONE is power surge rushing right now. One of the biggest problems is that you can't bombard while fighting, and also you're very vulnerable to any cap with strike craft slots for bombers. This makes it very difficult to capitalize on a capital-ship heavy rush, unlike a carrier cap which is more than capable of bombarding while the fight is ongoing.

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Volt_Cruelerz

Join Date 06/2008

+115

@Juletron: I agree with you. But he asked how you would counter it and I responded. However, I was also assuming in that response that the Sovas would come with a few LRM's/Cobalts. All the same though, I do think the Vasari do need something early game.. Perhaps increase the strength of Scramble bombers a bit.. Not a ton, but increase the duration so that those bombers can get a little more damage in before self-destructing. This way, one Skirantra gets RC and the other gets SB. I think that doing so ought to work.

@Darvin/Connor/SS: Well, any buff to the Kortul (my favorite ship by a longshot) is bound to make me happy, and if you need to buff the Kol (which needs something, though I'm sure precisely what it needs) and the Radiance (so that Animosity isn't a death sentence), I'd be for it.

I guess it depends on how much you want to buff it... I mean, after level V the Kortul becomes much more powerful anyways thanks to the third level of PS, but if you could perhaps buff it just slightly, you might do some good for early game Vasari...

Though in general, I think the problem with the Skirantra, or any of the Vasari ships when defending against a rush is that you need multpiple abilities to do so. The Sova can bomb, sick fighters and deploy platforms. So you need something that can fix all three problems.

I'll go through the issues individually...

Planet Bombing: You need to hit it with damage. Bombers can do that.

Fighters: You can create your own ones. Perhaps add in a tiny bit of flak for good measure (if you want it to end quickly).

Platforms: Just don't get within range. Use your bombers to attack the Sova.

So I suppose defeating the Sova with one capital ship would mean you getting mostly fighters and scramble bombers. Keep your Skirantra out of range of the platforms and set your fighters/bombers to hold position beside his cap. Then use scramble bombers to get a couple extra squads to defeat the Sova.. Unless I'm mistaken, Top Vasari mentioned something that sounded very much like this..

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The Skirantra is a very powerful ship, and I've yet to come across any evidence that it is disadvantaged against a Sova.

Well I provided my experience. If you are skeptical, try it yourself. Put a lone skirantra against a lone sova (both the same level). Have the sova attack your roid. Try to drive him off with your skirantra. Report your results back here - I want to see them.

As well as repair cloud, the level 6 ability is far better. Some skill at micro helps- like all Vasari. If the early Vasari units get a buff the Skirantra will become even more effective.

I hate repair cloud. I don't think it's good enough. I also think that sova's level 6 is far better than replicating a few cruisers in a major battle.

So I suppose defeating the Sova with one capital ship would mean you getting mostly fighters and scramble bombers. Keep your Skirantra out of range of the platforms and set your fighters/bombers to hold position beside his cap. Then use scramble bombers to get a couple extra squads to defeat the Sova.. Unless I'm mistaken, Top Vasari mentioned something that sounded very much like this.

LOL. So "one of the best abilities in the game" (repair cloud) has to sit on the sidelines while pretty much the worst ability in the game (scramble bombers) takes a front seat? Note that I'm not laughing at your advice, I'm just laughing at the situation, if this is truly the situation at hand.

I want to see this work. Repeat the scenario I outlined above (sova bombs roid, skirantra defends). My prediction is that the sova's fighters kill the bombers, and then the sova bombs the roid with impunity. Note that this must be a fair test in all respects, i.e. if you put your bombers and fighters in hold position, your opponent must do the same, not let his fly all over the grav well.

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psychoak

Join Date 07/2007

+225

The Antorak has low damage because it's an unusual capital ship, fast.

Buy the first two levels on the Jarasul and call it a day.

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Volt_Cruelerz

Join Date 06/2008

+115

@Psychoak: That was really random...

@Agent: I don't know.. Once again, I speak on theoretical terms, but I think that the Vasari bombers would be okay with it... It also depends on what SC composition he has..

2F,1B: get two fighter squads beside your bombers for covering fire while your other normal squad is a bomber.

3F: get three fighter squads to guard your bombers.

The above are with absolutely no fleet support, but if you brought in even a single Sentinel, you could easily defeat their fighters. Or you could bring in just a small number of Assailants. Now Juletron, before you say that this is burning more resources, I'm just saying that this would speed up the process, though I'm pretty sure that it could be done without them.) And besides, you ought to have at least some Assailants on hand anyways (if you don't, shame on you for not using the tier I unit...)

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yeah, excuse my MP ignorance... but a Sova can only field like 4 or 5 squadrons of SC in its first few levels right?

why not take a battleship and a carrier or anything to support it really, or just 2 battleships/juggernaughts etc, supported by a few LF/LRF and flak... drill the sova into the ground and let your flak mop up its SC... its not like 5 squadrons of SC are going to take down your capships, and frigs are easily replaceable...

idn, it just seems that if you do what everyone is expecting, it can be countered... throw in something weird and you may just surprise them... for instance i havent heard of a Missile Barrage being abused lately, throw that into a fight (if you can manage it) and watch him yell and scream at you for a change

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Volt_Cruelerz

Join Date 06/2008

+115

Well, of course using quadruple the fleet capacity is going to win the battle, but Karma wanted to know how to do it with one...

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Quoting TheRezonator,

reply 42

yeah, excuse my MP ignorance... but a Sova can only field like 4 or 5 squadrons of SC in its first few levels right?

why not take a battleship and a carrier or anything to support it really, or just 2 battleships/juggernaughts etc, supported by a few LF/LRF and flak... drill the sova into the ground and let your flak mop up its SC... its not like 5 squadrons of SC are going to take down your capships, and frigs are easily replaceable...

except that the Sova SCs are tough due to the Heavy Craft ability, that is almost like 6 ot 7 SC right there

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Volt_Cruelerz

Join Date 06/2008

+115

Yes, but this is dealing with low level ones and you can assume that the carriers would level up at a similar pace, so..

Sova: MB>HSC>MB>HSC>MB>RM

Skirantra: SB>RC>RC>MPA>RC>RF

For this reason, you don't need to worry about it. As the Sova goes up in level, so does the Skirantra, and thus its ability to use Repair Cloud and to keep its SC alive in general.

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true, but that RM rebuilds dead SC instantly and last a while

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Volt_Cruelerz

Join Date 06/2008

+115

Yeah, but this is a Sova RUSH!

You aren't going to find either of these ships hitting level six... You'll be lucky to see level three...

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he asked how you would counter it and I responded. However, I was also assuming in that response that the Sovas would come with a few LRM's/Cobalts. All the same though, I do think the Vasari do need something early game.. Perhaps increase the strength of Scramble bombers a bit.. Not a ton, but increase the duration so that those bombers can get a little more damage in before self-destructing. This way, one Skirantra gets RC and the other gets SB. I think that doing so ought to work.

My rant was not aimed at you. I qouted your useful suggestion to point out my observation that some people seem to have no problem with the idea that to counter something you must spend more money then the enemy.

As for the Skirantra (and the Vulkoras too) should get more DPS. Also, SC battles take place all over the grav-well so giving micro-phasing aura a much larger radius would be nice.

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The above are with absolutely no fleet support, but if you brought in even a single Sentinel, you could easily defeat their fighters.

No, if you get to bring in something, he gets to bring in something too.

Let's keep the tests simple, no need to complicate them - your capship of choice (vasari) vs. his sova (tec). That's what this is really about. I think there is NO capship the vasari can field that will beat his sova and defend your roid. Your best shot is probably the skirantra, but if you want to try one of the other ones, more power to you (he'll just go bombers and you'll get raped).

yeah, excuse my MP ignorance... but a Sova can only field like 4 or 5 squadrons of SC in its first few levels right?

Watch how fast those few bombers will kill your capship or newly-built starbase unless you have something to counter them. Seriously. That's why you are forced to go carrier.

why not take a battleship and a carrier or anything to support it really, or just 2 battleships/juggernaughts etc, supported by a few LF/LRF and flak... drill the sova into the ground and let your flak mop up its SC.

Uhhh, no. I already know I can beat him if I have a significant advantage. I want to know how to defend my roid if everything is even.

i havent heard of a Missile Barrage being abused lately, throw that into a fight (if you can manage it) and watch him yell and scream at you for a change

MB is level 6. My game was a small map and we were both only level 2. For the tests I am commissioning, you will only have level 1. Also, no vasari cap has MB, so pick another cap and another ability.

I don't have a problem with ANY PARTICULAR VASARI CAPSHIP losing to the sova in this scenario. I do have a problem with ALL VASARI CAPSHIPS losing to the sova in this scenario. There has to be one vasari capship that can win or even-steven the sova in this scenario, but there isn't. If there is, you find it and tell me which one it is, and how to use it.

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Until you come up with the replay of that game, Kharma, I am going to disregard any "test" you made and just proclaim that you made a newbie mistake where scrambled bombers from both Skintara's was actually useful as the Sova's fighters were busy.

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