@Jule: Oh...

@Agent: I know what you mean, but all the same I was being realistic.  One Sova vs Skirantra ought to be a pretty fair fight, but if you brought in a single sentinel (which would be far more realistic) then you have the advantage of being able to stop his Fighters in their tracks..  The same goes with Assailants.  If you actually were in this battle in a real game, and not just a test, shame on you for not using any fleet support to speak of, especially the tier I LRF.

At any rate, we need MP people to get online and test this thing out...

thats the thing, though. you said it yourself not each ship is even.

honestly, i think vasari should, from a lore point of view, be the most powerful race in terms of damage and survivability by far, but the trade off is they'd have fewer ships, TEC wouldnt be very powerful damage wise, but have much greater numbers, and advent would be somewhere inbetween, somehow balancing raw damage and abilities.

however... for some reason beyond us mere mortals, that is not the case.

so, that being what it is, you cant go up against an enemy when things are 'even'. you need to play to your strengths. assuming everything is 'even' you take your 5 Cobalts, he takes his 5 Cobalts, you fire at each other, and by the end of it everyone is dead leaving player 3 to come in and mop you up like a leaky tap.

he brings a carrier or two with some lf/lrf, you bring a battleship, spam some LRF or LF/scouts, maybe 2 carriers or some flak, whichever you prefer, or! you research armor and HP upgrades and have fewer ships... i mean come to think of it he may have had more research than you...

anyway, im not here to lecture you, but thats the thing, you have to play to your/the race's strengths, and to be blunt, have some luck. i do agree that some ships are more unbalanced than others... but it seems the ever elusive target... once the skirantra can beat the sova once again, people will complain about the skirantra being too powerful so....

Thats what I was trying to say.As fleets grow the sova becomes less and less effective whereas a skirtantra becomes more.

So you two are entirely okay with the vasari not having ANY cap that can stand it's ground against a sova on a small map where the two sides will meet early in the game?  You are entirely okay that the vasari will have to give up his roid to the tec player (assuming a small FAIR map, two players of identical skill, etc)?

If you are okay with it, fine, just say that you are.  I mean, maybe I have the wrong perspective on this.  Maybe it *IS* okay.  But I want to hear you two guys say it first before I try to adjust my brain to this philosophy and wrap my mind around it.

agent i cant argue that vasari are far weaker then TEC and advent on the rush.

and as vasari it is near impossible to counter a good rush from the other races unless you use SBs (which is a bad strat because it traps you in)

a kortul can hold its own against any cap in the game, and is a good starting cap to stop sova rush, you would need the DS so he cant use missile battereis then you just need a small supporting fleet, if you wanted you could even go double kortul.

within 2 jumps of a skilled player without a SB rush Vasari have a massive disadvantage.

Unfortunatly Vasaris strenght is in the late game where they get (RA, Subverters, Kostras, Phase Gates, improved fleet sizez, discounts on resources and credits) but in MP you would be lucky if 1 in 10 games got to that point.

while 99% of the people play SP Vasari is balanced because almost all games get to the late stages in the game.

The biggest problem with vasari is they are balanced to the SP game not to the MP game, and in situations like you point out they are almost impossible to win with, unless you go defencive.

_|~Uber

also, you were playing on your home turf, you should have been able to drop a regen bay and at least 1 turret or one or the other... yes its not even but i think we've come to the conclusion its not even at all... if you were to attack his planet he would certainly have a regen bay or a turret or even an sb so....

you gotta use whats at your disposal... why plan a battle strategy that expects losses when you can plan one that leaves him devastated and you without a scratch...

given, with all of that said, i think we all agree here that Vasari is losing out... its just so different to the other two races its hard to reconcile them at all...

I tried Kortuls in a test last week against Advent Halcyons.  I told my opponent to come with Halcyons before the game started (which he usually does anyway). The Kortuls were crushed by the bombers even though I had jam weapons.  So I don't think there is any way on earth a Kortul could stand up to a Sova.  Even if disruptive strikes stopped the missle batteries from spawning, the bombers would slaughter it.

Should a vasari cap be able to stop the enemy cap from sieging?  No.  But should a vasari cap be able to make the enemy cap pay the price for doing so?  Yes.  But in my game, the it was the sova that made TWO skirantras pay the price for defending.

Yes, we agree not even.  No, couldn't drop regen bay because the builder was killed.  "Well you should have put a regen bay there ahead of time!"  Hindsight is always 20/20.  I didn't know my roid was about to be attacked until it was too late.  If my roid wasn't attacked, I'd be criticized for dropping repair and being overly defensive when it wasn't necessary.

At any rate, I was going to voluteer to be online anytime New Years Day or after to play Sova or Skirantra against anyone who wanted to test this stuff out.  But it seems as if Top Vasari and others already agree that Vasari is disadvantaged in this situation, so my work here is done.

Thanks to everyone for your input, whether you agreed with me or disagreed.

Jesus man, where do the assholes in this community come from?  Why do you keep attacking me out of the blue?  I already told you I didn't play you, and that wasn't my game, but just for the sake of argument, WHY THE HECK DOES IT MATTER?  And why the heck do you need a replay?

I said I couldn't build repair because he took out the builder.  But either way, WHAT THE HELL DOES REPAIR HAVE TO DO WITH MY POINT THAT VASARI CAPS ARE OUTMATCHED AGAINST A SOVA?  If vasari caps need repair to stand up to other caps that don't need repair, then that proves my point even more, so thanks for making it for me!

So what the hell do you want from me, so you will go away and leave me alone?  An admission that I played you?  An admission that I played poorly?  Fine, great, fantastic, I'll do it!

To all readers of this thread, I played Fandangdo.  I sucked in my game against him (actually, truth be known, I suck in all games I play, whether against him or not).  I lost fair and square.  He was probably the best player I've ever played against.

Is that good enough?  Will you go away and quit berating me now?  Somehow, I truly doubt it.

Give us the entire battle picture, we want to know that there is no cobalts on the left side of the screen because I do not see any wreckages from the destroyed frigates.

I just wanted to add my opinion on this: Your problem was your fighter/bomber balance. I know people have said it before and you said you wouldn't use bombers when they have fighters, but the bottom line is that you are wrong, and that's why you lost.

You could have easily wiped out all his fighters even if you were balanced ~half and half, since as his fighters chase your bombers, your fighters would be cutting his down while taking no losses themselves. Before long, he'd have had zero strikecraft, and you could then re-balance your fleet to be something like 6bomber/2fighter. Add the scramble bomber ability to that, and you would have had a fat swarm of bombers kicking his teeth in.

You would have had no need for repair if you stayed out of range of his missiles and let your strikecraft do the fighting. In that case, his special ability would be completely nullified, and yours (bombers) would be a huge asset.

The fact that in your screenshot of a carrier dying you have a SWARM OF FIGHTERS is the smoking gun. Terrible!!! Those fighters were doing nothing for you! You obviously had strikecraft superiority and you were not capitalizing on it. 

Double cap with Skirantra would be a bad idea wouldnt it? I thought the design of Skirantra was made to support your fleet with an AoE HEAL which would heal EVERY unit of yours in that area.

Then whats the point of 2 Skirantras when theres only another Skirantra with 1-2 more units to heal.

If i were you i would have spent the resources on fleet first. Light frigates might be a safer start too.

There are answers to this question, but we are getting sidetracked by addressing it.  The point is capships - only capships.  Not what I could have done differently or how I could have played better.  Is it the intention of the devs that the vasari have NO cap that can go toe to toe with a sova?  If so, fine, but I want to hear players, or the devs themselves say it.

Let's take a hypotetical map.  1 homeworld for you, 1 homeworld for your enemy, and 1 roid in between.  That's it.  Nothing else.  Your enemy rushes you with a sova as soon as it hops off the assembly line.  You have no time for your "fleet support."  What are you going to do?

I was getting rushed by dual halcyons all the time before I ever played this particular game.  That's why I started opening with dual skirantras - it was the only cap that could somewhat counter the halcyons.  Eggs got slaughtered, kortuls got slaughtered, starbases got slaughtered (all due to bombers) - you need something that can make fighters.  Assailants got slaughtered either by fighters, seekers/scouts, or combination thereof.  Skirmishers?  I don't build skirmishers.

Fair enough.  I am willing to test this out with someone anytime New Year's Day or after.  Anyone who wants to meet me online, PM me and we will set day/time, screennames, etc.

That's fine, in fact I suggested the idea myself if you read my opening post.  But just understand, I have NEVER seen anyone not build a capship to start the game, and if you are proposing that vasari do this, then they are the only race that "shouldn't" build a capship to open.  Now, perhaps that's entirely fine - I'm not judging it.  I'm totally cool with the idea.  I'm simply asking "are you sure you want to 'go there' with this suggestion?"  I mean, was this the intent of the devs?

Deciphering the "intent of the devs" feels a little too much like "decipering the will of the gods," methinks.  LOL.

Yeah sure, I can provide these screen-shots. Indeed, it would be my pleasure mate! Sorry about the size of the images.

Please all note the use of language by Nightmare Crush (aka Agent of Kharma) in this last screen-shot.....now where have I read something like that before? Oh yeah, on page one of this thread!