A View From the Cross » Forum Post by lulapilgrim

People spiritualize scriptures they don't wish to take literally so they can make it say anything they want. The Jews did this too Leauki when it came to Christ. For instance, for years before Christ Isaiah 53 was thought to be a description of the coming Messiah until he came. Then they changed it spiritualizing it to mean Israel as a nation because it fit too closely to the Christ who claimed to be the Messiah.

Where do you get that the meaning was changed?

This article says that Isaiah 53 indeed refers to the Messiah:

http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/101679/jewish/The-Personality-of-Mashiach.htm

Can't really be more Jewish than Chabad, can you?

No, KFC, the point about Jews and Jesus has nothing to do with Jews changing the meaning of texts. It has simply to do with two things.

One is the fact that Jesus isn't done yet and hence there is nothing but faith that convince anyone that he is the Messiah. If he comes back and does all these Jerusalem things (hopefully before Obama sells the city to the Arabs), this discussion would look quite different.

The other is that the "Jesus is G-d" claim. He never said it. The prophecies never spoke of a Messiah who is G-d. And Jewish law prohibits praying to a man, which means that no man can be G-d since G-d has to be worshipped.

To Jews Jesus was one of many, many claimants to that throne.

One was Simon Bar Kokhba, who actually did manage to bring Israel back under Israelite rule for a few years. Many Jews believed that he was the Messiah. His end was similar to Jesus', as per Roman custom. People stopped believing he was the Messiah when he failed to perform the required tasks.

Another was, quite ironically, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the late leader of Chabad. He never made the claim but some of his followers did. When he died without performing the required tasks (which afterall, since he didn't claim to be the Messiah he didn't have to do), those who believed he was the Messiah simply started believing he would eventually come back and finish the task, which is one of two common methods to deal with a dead unfinished Messiah. (The other is to claim that he did finish the task and ignore the evidence.)

Some Chabadniks even went as far as claiming that Schneerson was G-d. But as usual such claims are rejected by the vast majority of Jews and a large majority of Chabad Messianists.

I understand the most common position among Chabad now is that Schneerson was a candidate for Messiah but didn't become the Messiah. Jews believe that every generation has such a candidate (which means that anyone can become the Messiah).

Anyway, if you look at what happened in Israel during Schneerson's life time (1902 to 1994, leader of Chabad since 1951) you can see how people can make the connection between the learned scholar and the Messiah.

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KFC POSTS:

People spiritualize scriptures they don't wish to take literally so they can make it say anything they want. The Jews did this too Leauki when it came to Christ. For instance, for years before Christ Isaiah 53 was thought to be a description of the coming Messiah until he came. Then they changed it spiritualizing it to mean Israel as a nation because it fit too closely to the Christ who claimed to be the Messiah.

LEAUKI POSTS:

No, KFC, the point about Jews and Jesus has nothing to do with Jews changing the meaning of texts. It has simply to do with two things.

Where do you get that the meaning was changed?

Yes, Leauki, what KFC says is true.

The key to this is understanding the "W" questions.....WHO were the Jews that made the change; WHEN did they do it and WHY (which KFC answers above...the OT Scriptures fit too closely to the Christ who claimed to be the Messias).

What followed Christ's Ascension into Heaven was the birth of the Church and the going forth of Christianity. The Jewish leadership who were against Christ saw thousands and thousands of Jews acknowledge the Messias Christ and convert to Christianity.

How did the acceptance of Christ and the conversion to Christianity come about for so many so quickly?

We know that ever since 200BC right up to the time of Christ, the Septuagint was the Holy Book of the Jews that was universally used by the Rabbis of Palestine and it contained more than a thousand years of consistent prophecy of the coming of the Messias, Isaias being only one of them.

So, from 33AD onward, with the use of the 46 Books of the Septuagint, the Infant Church grew and grew spreading Christianity. Then comes 70AD and another blow to Old Covenant Judaism and to the Jews who did not accept Christ. The Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed and the Jews went into dispersion. Then comes 90AD and with the rise of Christianity and its use of the Septuagint, the Jews began to denounce it vehemently. The Jews who rejected Christ went to Jamnia where they developed a new form of Judaism in the hopes of uniting all Jews by undercutting Christian claims of the divinity of Jesus and His identity as the Christ. To do this, they assembled a completely new version of Jewish Scripture ommitting some Books of the Septuagint and rewriting the others. The result which is called the Jamnian or Palestinian Canon changed Judaism forever.

This reconstruction of what is now modern Judaism was influenced by Rabbis who were Sadducees. Politically they tended to favor the Romans, but doctrinally they were heretical refusing to believe in the teachings of the oral Torah such as the resurrection of the dead and life everlasting. So they took out 7 Books of the Septuagint that teach these beliefs. They had always been particularly zealous enemies of Christianity Acts. 5:17-19, so they also rewrote the prophetic texts.

For instance, a translator by the name of Aquila, removed the word, parthenos---"virgin"---from Is. 7:14, and rendered the passage, "a young woman (neanis) shall conceive". That way they could always assert that the prophecy didn't match what Christians were teaching about the very nature of Christ.

To Jews Jesus was one of many, many claimants to that throne.

One was Simon Bar Kokhba, who actually did manage to bring Israel back under Israelite rule for a few years. Many Jews believed that he was the Messiah. His end was similar to Jesus', as per Roman custom. People stopped believing he was the Messiah when he failed to perform the required tasks.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia vol. I, pg. 305, it was Rabbi Akiba, an intense enemy of Christ and His Church, who formed the Jamnian Palestinian Canon...that is 39 Books. It states, "Akiba was the one who definitely formed the canon of Old Testament books" and "that the definitive act of canonization...is known to have taken place in the Synod of Jabneh (90 AD) soon after the destruction of the Second Temple..." Still further, "the motive underlying his antagonism to the (additional books in the Septugint) was "namely the desire to disarm the Christians--especially Jewish Christians---who drew their proofs from the Septuagint; also to fulfill his "wish to emancipate the Jews...from the domination of the Septuagint....used as agruments against the Jews by the Christians" page 306.

Truth is this Akiba and the Synod of Jabheh (Jamnia) through which he operated had no more authority to form a new canon of Scripture during the century after the Jews ceased to have a High Priest (who was the Mosaic supreme ecclesiastical authority) Temple, Altar, and Mosaic sacrifices (which marked the end of Biblical Judaism) than has any Rabbi or group of Rabbis during the 21st century.

Truth is this Akiba who repudiated belief in Jesus being the predicted Messias, proclaimed a pretender, Simeon, to be the Messias, whom he named "Bar Kochba", Son of the Star, assuming him to be the fulfillment of the prophecy in Numbers 24:17, "A star shall rise out of Jacob...and a sceptre shall spring out of Israel...". Akiba not only "accepted Bar Kochba as the Messias", but he helped him lead a 4 year revolt against the Romans for the capture of Jerusalem 131-135 AD, in which 580,000 Jews are said to have been killed and hundreds of thousands of other Jews perished through sickness, starvation, etc. This Bar Kochba-Akiba rebellion fulfilled completely the prophecy of Daniel 9:26, that Jerusalem would be razed to the ground, which is in the very text where the Jews were told of the coming of the Messias.

Leauki, You've noted that your Hebrew translations are more closely aligned with KFCs than mine. Of course they are....why? While the Church adopted the Septuagint as the only inspired Testament to Christ's nature and mission as promised by the Old Covenant and preserved its message through today as the sole and official canon of the Church's Jewish OT Scriptures; Protestantism has not. In 1517, Luther led the revolt against the Church and adopted the Palestinian Canon of 39 Books formed by Rabbi Akiba.

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kfc posts 141

Scripture is very clear that Jesus as Messiah will rule an earthly kingdom. He, as David's son will sit on the throne in Jerusalem finally. It's exactly what the Jews have been waiting for.

If you are describing the fable of Dispensational PreMillennialists who believe in a future 1,000 year reign of Christ as Messias on this present earth Scripture teaches no such thing.

The Messianic Millennium began at Christ's First Coming and it will end at Christ's Second Coming in great majesty and glory to judge the living and the dead. Christ is ruling from Heaven over His Messianic Kingdom, the Church, and will until the end of the world upon which all earthly things, the earth itself and the universe will go through a cosmic upheaval. All life, everything will be obliterated by fire that we cannot imagine. Immediately following, at the blast of a trumpet, all mankind will rise from the dead and proceed to the Final or General Judgment and then those who are judged righteous will spend eternity in the Heavenly New Jerusalem in the new heavens and new earth. Those who are judged wicked will spend eternity in Hell.

So when does your idea of the 1,000 year physical reign of Christ figure in with Christ's Second Coming at the end of the world?

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kfc posts:

did you not read my response in #215? I gave you the definition for new that is used here in the Greek. It's not new in origin. It's like when we come to Christ ...our old nature is passed away and we receive a new nature. I'm still me though. I'm not another person. I'm a new creature in Christ. It's the same word used here for "new earth." It's like you're totally ignoring what I'm saying and just continuing on like I never said a thing. When the earth was destroyed by flood we had a new earth then too. But it wasn't a new (origin) earth in the sense you're saying. The next time will be by fire. He will cleanse the earth by fire and it will be destroyed. It will be a new earth. All the sin will be wiped away. Someday we will receive new bodies too. But we will somehow be able to recognize each other. Jesus received a new body right? The same with us. His body was not in the grave anymore. God used the old body and restored it somehow. Jesus now has a new body like we will have. That's what he will do with the earth.

Yes, I read it. I understand your point however, it doesn't make the case. Anyway, you think it's the same earth only transformed by fire and I think it's a new one.

In Apoc, 21:1 St.John sees a new heaven and New Earth appear before him while the first heaven and earth "was gone" DR....your KJV has "passed away".

So what does "was gone" or "passed away" mean?

In St.Matt. 5:18, Jesus says, "For truly I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." Apoc. 21 is the time that "all is accomplished." This was also prophecied in Is. 65:17-18, "For behold I create new heavens and a new earth and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind...."

2St.Peter 3:10-13 which I've already posted gives us details as to how the first heaven and earth will "pass away". In Rom. 8:20-23 St. Paul gives us some details as well but all I can tell from that is that the two will be vastly different.

Our first body was made to deteriorate and die if we sin. But our body in the New Heavens and Earth will be incorruptible and immortal since there will be no sin or death. St.Paul describes the different bodily constitutions in 1Co 15:42-54.

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lEAUKI POSTS: G-d also promised us a land. You claim He broke that promise. I claim He wouldn't do that, ever.

Lula posts:

No, no, no Leauki, I claim that Almighty God already fulfilled His promise of a land and gave the Scriptural passages that prove it.

Oh yes, right, the new, improved short eternity.

As to the Lord God's promise of physical land, you are talking about the promises of Genesis 15:18-21 right?

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KFC POSTS 119 Here Ezechiel was writing about the second coming when the Messiah would come back to set up his rule. So yes, the ultimate restoration of Sodom, Samaria, and Israel awaits the establishing of Christ's kingdom on the present earth.

lula posts:

Christ has already established His Messianic Kingdom. Scripture gives the details that Christ accomplished establishing His Kingdom during His ministry on earth. His kingdom is His Church. The parable of the mustard seed describes His Kingdom, His Church, the New Jerusalem.

KFC posts 134

NOT even close Lula. He redeemed us but He will return to establish it. Does it look like He has established it to you? Look around. I don't think so.

Scripture is clear that Christ redeemed us and founded a Church St.Matt. 16:18 and in 18:17, to listen to His Church, which you refuse to do.

In St. Matthew alone, the Church is spoken of 36 times as "the kingdom". Besides St.Matthew, the Chruch is spoken of as "the kingdom of heaven", "the kingdom of God", and sometime simply as "the kingdom." So the visible Church, with good fish and bad fish, and cockle in the wheat, IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

So, don't say, "NOT even close, Lula". Christ's Messianic Chruch was established by Him at His First Coming and we've been up, down and all around those Scriptural passages that prove it.

You are the one who is not even close as your definition of the Church "as the believers in all denominations" is not found in the Holy Bible but only in the novelties of the 16th century forefathers as is confirmed by a Protestant reference book, "The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church", ed. F.L. Cross, and E.A. Livingstone, Oxford University Press, 1974 and reprinted 1977. page 287, "The Reformation led to the reformulation of the idea of the Church."

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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Oh yes, right, the new, improved short eternity.

Try promising your children a toy for Christmas and then take it away a day later and tell them that you fullfilled your promise since they had the toy for a while.

Priceless Leauki! Loved it.

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Lula posts: No, no, no Leauki, I claim that Almighty God already fulfilled His promise of a land and gave the Scriptural passages that prove it.

LEAUKI POSTS:

Oh yes, right, the new, improved short eternity. Try promising your children a toy for Christmas and then take it away a day later and tell them that you fullfilled your promise since they had the toy for a while.

If the children are disobedient; unfaithful and idolatrous, then consequences follow... they, becasue of their wickedness lose the gift.

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If the children are disobedient; unfaithful and idolatrous, then consequences follow... they, becasue of their wickedness lose the gift.

Lula,

You do not decide whether the people of Israel are wicked. G-d does.

I know the Church has a habit of declaring others wicked, especially the Jews, but again I remind you that I do not believe that any man speaks for G-d.

The land of Israel is back in Jewish hands. It took several miracles but it happened it.

The G-d of Israel, the people of Israel, and the land of Israel. That's where your Jesus came from. He never forgot his heritage and when he, as you say, died for humanity he also and primarily died for his people. Whatever else Rabbi Jesus was, he was first and foremost a Jewish patriot. And his followers taught Jewish law and Jewish philosophy to the pagans. But you perverted his teachings. Jesus' teachings were not about how wicked the Jews are, they were about how right and true the Torah is.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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If the children are disobedient; unfaithful and idolatrous, then consequences follow... they, becasue of their wickedness lose the gift.

What about the wickedness in the RCC which is more than plentiful these days? Always has been. It's just that the secrets are now out in the open. God will reveal what is hidden and hide that which is revealed. Did you not know that? Remember what Christ said about first taking the beam out of your own eye before you dare judge another? The RCC has done no better job in their responsbility as ambassadors to God than the Jews did.

If the children are disobedient; unfaithful and idolatrous, then consequences follow... they, becasue of their wickedness lose the gift.

Again, open your newspaper these days and read about your mighty RCC. All over the world they are falling. Yes, consequences do follow and the Jews did pay for their unfaithfulness to God. They were chosen to be a light to a dark world and they took their responsibility too lightly. In fact they disregarded it and sinned against God. But it goes further than that. God knew from the beginning of time their response to His law and commands so it didn't take God by surprise. God didn't go "oh look what they've done now. How could they?" No, he knew full well what they were made up of and how they would fall. But it was all part of God's plan.

There's a poem that reads like this:

Behind the veil that hides the Lord

From our poor human sight,

He stands and sees with pitying eyes

The Jews in sorry plight

Hated, despised, insulted, scorned,

Beaten and murdered too;

They were His brothers when on earth,

For Jesus was a Jew.

Christ died for them as well as us and He wants them to be saved just as He does us. They are especially precious to God. They were the apple of His eye. Israel's sins are not condoned nor should we minimize God's boundless love for the Gentiles but the fact remains that in his Sovereignty He has chosen the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for a special token of His affection. Yes, we are the spiritual heirs as well and the great mystery is that the Jews and the Gentiles will be co-heirs.

We would not have a Bible had it not been for the Jews writing under the inspiration of God. We are their debtors for this. Paul, a Jew had a great love and ministry for the Gentiles. We should not forget this. Our Savior came as a Jew.

The Jews are central in the earthly kingdom to be set up by Christ when He returns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. They will be the leading nation and Jerusalem the world capital when Christ personally takes over the reins of the government of the world. As the "time of the Gentiles" is drawing to a close the time for Israel's purging and restoration (day of Jacob's trouble) their "blindness in part" is going to give way to light and the Jews will again be center stage in God's masterful plan.

We need to pray for the Jews Lula and encourage them not bash them over the heads telling them that God is finished with them. God is not finished with the Jews nor the Jewish Homeland. He still has a great plan for them and for the whole world that involves the Holy City of Jerusalem. It is where God's heart is on earth. He will once again set up his Kingdom there with a New Jerusalem one day I believe is in the near future. I believe I will see this in my lifetime.

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Behind the veil that hides the Lord

From our poor human sight,

He stands and sees with pitying eyes

The Jews in sorry plight

Hated, despised, insulted, scorned,

Beaten and murdered too;

They were His brothers when on earth,

For Jesus was a Jew.

Beautiful.

Jews believe that Israel, the land and the people, survives despite being weaker than everybody else because G-d helps us.

If G-d wanted to be a human being to show humanity that He understands what humans go through, why wouldn't He appear as a Jew? If Jesus had been a Roman master, Christianity would just have been one of the Roman sects. (In fact there were hundreds of Romans who directly claimed to be gods. What did they teach humanity?)

If Jesus came back today and tried to visit Bethlehem, he would be surprised (metaphorically) to learn that there are almost no Christians in Bethlehem and Obama would tell him that his birth place, the stable, is an illegal settlement. (And it would be hard for Jesus, a Jew, to find a place to stay in a local hostel.)

Under Palestinian law, Jesus would not even be allowed to be born in Bethlehem.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Under Palestinian law, Jesus would not even be allowed to be born in Bethlehem.

more than that Leauki. Had Jesus came in our day to an unmarried 14-15 year old he most likely would have been aborted.

Jesus came in the fullness of time exactly when the timing was best. It's said that God is never late but he's never early either. He comes exactly on time.

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more than that Leauki. Had Jesus came in our day to an unmarried 14-15 year old he most likely would have been aborted.

Yes, that's a possibility; although I do hope that an pregnant unmarried Jewish woman today would not abort, especially when she has a future husband at her side. I don't know how likely abortions are among Jews. Also note that back then Roman families didn't abort but rather killed the infant after birth if they thought there was something wrong with it. That's beyond even partial-birth abortion. A Jewish mother was then a safer bet if you wouldn't the child to come through.

But as difficult as times were back then for Jesus' (human) family, can you imagine what would happen to an unmarried mother in today's Bethlehem? She wouldn't have to be Jewish to be in trouble. And if Hamas had their way, she would have been stoned for adultery before she could even think about abortion.

And I don't think the woman could flee to Egypt either.

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Lula posts: No, no, no Leauki, I claim that Almighty God already fulfilled His promise of a land and gave the Scriptural passages that prove it.

If the children are disobedient; unfaithful and idolatrous, then consequences follow... they, becasue of their wickedness lose the gift.

You do not decide whether the people of Israel are wicked. G-d does.

The Lord God told us through Scripture that Jews were disobedient, unfaithful and idolatrous and that in the days of Elijas and Jeremias only a remnant 7,000, did not fall into apostasy.

KFC POSTS:

What about the wickedness in the RCC which is more than plentiful these days? Always has been.

Yes, I agree. And Our Lord told us there would be good fish and bad fish in the Net (His Church) and warned that scandals would come and woe to those who cause them. If they die in the state of grevious sin (wickedness), they will go to Hell.

St.Matt. 12:35-37, Jesus reminds people that there is a Judgment. "The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. I tell you on the day of Judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

So, yes, there is a particular judgement immediately after one dies, and a General Judgment at the end of the world.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

although I do hope that an pregnant unmarried Jewish woman today would not abort,

my guess in this country they would. The U.S. Jews are very liberal minded and tend to vote democratic so that tells me they would have no trouble aborting today. I have two Jewish friends here. Neither one of them is observant although they both cherish their heritage. They both have told me that I know more than they do about their religion because I know their scriptures and they haven't any idea about them.

And if Hamas had their way,

speaking of Hamas did you know that in scripture the word for violence is Hamas? I was just reading about violence in the book of Habakkuk and it's "hamas." Maybe if my liberal Jewish friends knew that yanking a baby out of the womb with the thought to destroy it is an act of hamas they would think differently?

So, yes, there is a particular judgement immediately after one dies, and a General Judgment at the end of the world.

I agree to a point. You and I would disagree about the "General Judgment" but for the most part let's say we agree here. But my question is to you why do you have a particular set of rules for Israel and their rejection (wickedness as you say) and what the RCC is doing? By going thru with their evil deeds and schemes they too are showing rejection of God no less than the Jews. There were good/bad Jews as there are good/bad RC. Your institution has always been filled with wickedness so much so that an exorcist has recently revealed that over 70,000 exorcisms have been done over the years in the RCC involving Popes, bishops, cardinals and priests. I think most of them were done at the Vatican.

I just wrote this: http://kfc.joeuser.com/article/381427/Abraham_is_Not_Just_A_Father_To_The_Jews

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The G-d of Israel, the people of Israel, and the land of Israel. That's where your Jesus came from. He never forgot his heritage and when he, as you say, died for humanity he also and primarily died for his people.

Yes, Jesus was a Jew...born of a Jewish Mother, of the Jewish house of David, of the tribe of Judah therefore in His veins flowed the royal blood of Israel's kings. In truth Jesus was so much of a Jew that He took to task those who in His day discredited the teachings of God through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses to the children of Israel. The Apostles, except St. Luke, were Jews. The first converts, 3,000 of them, who under the leadership of St.Peter, formed the nucleus of the Church Militant, were Jews. So, yes, the Jews should have great pride in the realization that the Great Master Himself as well as the pages of the OT, which Jesus said gave testimony of Himself, were all of Jewish origin. So, yes, I know where Jesus came from for it is also in this that Catholicism finds its firm foundation.

So for you, it's Jesus minus His Messiaship yet He died primarily for the Jews. Sorry, Leauki, I don't buy that based upon St.Paul who infallibly taught that "Christ died for all.."

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

"Christ died for all.."

yes He did. I agree. He came for His own though and His own knew Him not. If it wasn't for the rejection and now we know the blindness of the Jews Abraham's promise would not have been totally fulfilled.

The Apostles, except St. Luke

Luke was not an Apostle. He was a follower, and a doctor but was not an Apostle. So yes, all the Apostles were Jewish.

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Somebody said that Jesus died for all people which is true yet Paul says this ' I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience is bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have a heavy sorrow and unceasing pain in my heart. For I could be ACCUSED FROM CHRISST ON BEHALF OF MY BROTHERS, MY COUNTRYMEN , WHO ARE ISRAELITES, whose are the adoption and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the Law, and the service, and the promises; '(Romans 9:1-4)

Lula, you have such animosity against the Jews. The fact that you support the PA due to your underlining belief in Replace Theology 'Israel shouldn't be there'. Also you brought up the the parable of the Two Sons (I like to call it the Prodigal Father). How the one Son represents the Gentiles and the other the angry bitter Jews. Mean while, this parable was to Jewish people so the assumption would be the audience would be lead to believe both sons were Jewish. The younger gave up and left. You almost vilify the Jewish people. What the younger Son did was to make his older brother jealous for the Father was ALWAYS RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM.

This goes with what Paul says 'I say, then, Did not they stumble that they fall? Let it not be! But by their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. But if their transgression is the riches of the world, and their defeat is the riches of the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!'

There is the meat of it: there is a GREATER BLESSING when they come into the FULLNESS. As Believers we should be making the Jewish people jealous. Yes, we should be making the world jealous. Paul did say to the Jews first and guess what? He always went to the Synagogues first.

The hockey game is back on.

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kfc posts:

But my question is to you why do you have a particular set of rules for Israel and their rejection (wickedness as you say) and what the RCC is doing? By going thru with their evil deeds and schemes they too are showing rejection of God no less than the Jews. There were good/bad Jews as there are good/bad RC.

I don't have a particular set of rules for Israel or anyone...sin and wickedness is sin and wickedness no matter who commits it.

Leauki brought up God's promise of land and I told him that Scripture tells us that over time the Jews lost it because of their unfaithfulness, disobedience and idolatry.

My comment was a direct response to Leauki who wrote:

You do not decide whether the people of Israel are wicked. G-d does......

Well true. God does and did...He told us so in Scripture.

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kfc posts:

We need to pray for the Jews Lula and encourage them not bash them over the heads telling them that God is finished with them. .

I pray for Jews to come to Christ.

KFC,

It's useless to persist in your baseless assertion that I bash Jews telling them God is finished with them. I"VE NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING for I don't believe that.... I've said so a few pages back I WROTE:

I believe God is not done with the Jews. Based on the fact that God wills all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth proves that He is not done with the Jews or anyone else for that matter. Through the merits of Christ's Passion and Death, this, right here and now, the present time is the age of God's Grace for all mankind.

Even though God rejected parts of the OLd Mosaic covenant, the Temple, its sacrifices, etc., God has not rejected His people. So yes, of course, the Jews have a future with God. St. Paul answers the question, Has God rejected His people saying,

.....God forbid. For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people, which he foreknew. Know you not what the scripture saith of Elias; how he calleth on God against Israel? 3 Lord, they have slain thy prophets, they have dug down thy altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the divine answer to him? I have left me seven thousand men, that have not bowed their knees to Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also, there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace.

So notice the answer about whether the Jews are rejected concerns the hope to restore individual salvation to as many Jews as possible and NOT TO A CORPORATE NATIONAL REVIVAL SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE.

Read it again..the answer shows that the salvation of Israel will be just as it was in the OT. Out of a nation of millions, God tells Elias there were only 7,000 who had remained faithful. So, it's no surprise that v.5, even in this present time, there is a "remnant" of Jewish people that is far smaller than the majority.

Almighty God is fulfilling all the OT prophecies about Israel's salvation here and now as Jews from every nation to which they have been scattered are being gathered into one Body of Christ. The one Body into which the Jews from all nations are being gathered is the Church, the Messianic kingdom of God present here and now, the Church age also known as the Millennium.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

How the one Son represents the Gentiles and the other the angry bitter Jews. Mean while, this parable was to Jewish people so the assumption would be the audience would be lead to believe both sons were Jewish.

Huh? Did I mis something? This story is one of three in this chapter (lost sheep, lost coin, lost son) and the whole point of the three stories is God's joy is found in the one sinner who repents.

The story of the two brothers reveal two extreme sinners living under the same roof. The elder brother is the Pharisee. He is a legalist with no real respect for the father he pretends to serve. The other brother is a fool who works fast and unwisely. He is driven by lust and fast living. He joined himself to the Gentiles (so neither brother could be a Gentile) when he defiled himself by working on a pig farm.

So Lula if you're saying one of these is a gentile you are gravely mistaken. That's not the point of the story at all. Somebody is giving you a bad interpretation. The assumption as the People's Party has mentioned is a pretty strong one and that is that both sons were Jewish. V1 & 2 give you a clue. The ones listening are the publicans (who were hated by the Pharisees) and other "sinners" and then on the other side you see the Pharisees and the scribes.

So instead of Jew and Gentile you might want to read the story again and put sinner (younger son) and Pharisee (older son) and see how that works.

Also you brought up the the parable of the Two Sons (I like to call it the Prodigal Father).

yes, the story is more about the father than anything.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

So notice the answer about whether the Jews are rejected concerns the hope to restore individual salvation to as many Jews as possible and NOT TO A CORPORATE NATIONAL REVIVAL SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE.

and what does "And so all Israel shall be saved..." mean to you in Romans 11:26? I agree that it's only going to be a remnant. No argument from me there. In fact I believe 2/3 of the Jews are going to perish in the "great tribulation." But God is going to bring this group in as a corporate group; and all Israel will be saved meaning as a nation. I don't see that said about any other nations.

Lula, in response to your last posting. I have one question. Who are the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and when does this take place?

Also I know that in order for the Jews, as you say to have a part in God's plan they have to become RCC? Correct?

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kfc posts:

The Jews are central in the earthly kingdom to be set up by Christ when He returns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. They will be the leading nation and Jerusalem the world capital when Christ personally takes over the reins of the government of the world.

Where is any of this in Scripture? ................................Save your time...it isn't there. The antichrist deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made about this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of Millenarianism.

When Christ returns Scripture tells us it will be on the last day of this earth to judge the living and the dead; not to set up His earthly kingdom.

Jesus Christ died and lives again. Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords now seated at the right hand of the Father He possesses all power in Heaven and on earth. He is far above all rule, authority, power and dominion for the Father has put "all things under His feet". Christ is Lord over the cosmos and of history.

Since the Ascension, God's plan has entered into its fulfillment. Christ the Lord has already set up His earthly kingdom, the Church. As Lord, Christ is Eternal Head of the Church, which is His Body. Christ dwells on earth in His Church. LET ME SAY THAT AGAIN....CHRIST DWELLS ON EARTH IN HIS CHURCH. Christ by the Holy Spirit exercises His authority over His Church.

Christ's kingdom is already present on earth, the seed, and in mystery, the beginning of the eternal heavenly Kingdom, the glorious Messianic New Jerusalem which according to the prophets will bring all men justice, love and peace. Is. 11:9.

We are in "the last days". The Church, Christ's kingdom is already endowed with a sanctity that is real but imperfect. 1Cor. 10:11. This reign is under attack by the evil powers, even though they've been defeated by Christ's Passover. 2Thess. 2:7. According to the Lord, the present time is the time of the Spirit and of witness to His Gospel, but a time marked by distress and trial of evil which does not spare the Chruch and ushers in the struggles of the endtimes.

KFC, it is a time of waiting, of watching and of praying, not taking Scripture and looking at events in the Middle East and the European Union and making endtime predictions.

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There is the meat of it: there is a GREATER BLESSING when they come into the FULLNESS. As Believers we should be making the Jewish people jealous. Yes, we should be making the world jealous.

While the other part of your post was a bit jumbled, I agree wholeheartedly with your conclusion.

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Also I know that in order for the Jews, as you say to have a part in God's plan they have to become RCC? Correct?

The Romans came, killed Rabbi Jesus, killed thousands of other Jewish leaders. They destroyed the land of Israel, destroyed the Temple, and renamed Jerusalem and Israel after Zeus and Israel´s enemies.

And now they want Israel to accept Roman rule forever, top gain salvation from their god?

Never.

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