A View From the Cross » Forum Post by lulapilgrim

What are you going to do Lula, when they start to build the temple in Jerusalem soon? Are you then going to recant? You're going to have to. They've got everything ready to do so now.

KFC,

Glad you asked these questions.

The whole point of this discussion is whether or not a future (21st century or on) rebuilding of the Jerusalem Temple is Scriptural. You say it is; I say it is not.

The Jerusalem Temple may well be rebuilt....I'll take your word for it...I have no problem with that whatsoever.

We've already discussed that if the Temple is rebuilt it will be a work by man for man and it will be a work in vain. The one great attempt to rebuild the Temple that utterly failed was when Julian the Apostate 361-363 AD undertook the work with unlimited money, and the aid of thousands of Jewish men.

What's the difference this time? CHRIST.

With Christ everything changed for everyone...the Jewish people included...they are to belong to the New and Eternal Covenant in the Blood of Jesus Christ. St. Paul taught infallibly that Christ is the "seed" of Abraham and so whoever is incorportaed into Him that is into His Mystical Body the Church, by means of baptism inherits the promise God made to Abraham and becomes a member of God's covenant people.

I keep telling you God is not a God of confusion..there cannot be dual Covenants in existence at the same time that His people are worship Him under. Nor is there one covenant with dual stages of development. It isn't and can't be.

Those who believe in Christ are not engrafted in to "the people of the flesh" of the defunct nation of Old Isreal, but rather into Christ Himself, who again, is the seed of Abraham and the perfection of the Abrahamic Covenant. In the New and Eternal Covenant people includes all nations and peoples who follow CHrist.

Successfully updated karma reason!

The Temple was always the work of man. G-d doesn't need a temple. Man does.

And scripture says that the Messiah will return the cities of Israel into their former state. For Jerusalem, that includes the Temple. How could it not?

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

We've already discussed that if the Temple is rebuilt it will be a work by man for man and it will be a work in vain.

It's not really in vain because it will help to bring about the end of time. It's all part of the plan to usher in the end. This will be the last abomination coming from mankind and it's when God himself comes down and says "enough!" Just like he did in Sodom and just like he did in Noah's day. The cup of God's wrath will be overflowing and as HE is a patient God this will be some overflowed cup.

Those who believe in Christ are not engrafted in to "the people of the flesh" of the defunct nation of Old Isreal, but rather into Christ Himself, who again, is the seed of Abraham and the perfection of the Abrahamic Covenant. In the New and Eternal Covenant people includes all nations and peoples who follow CHrist.

I agree with you on this one Lula.

Successfully updated karma reason!

"Defunct nation"?

We have survived several attempted and executed genocides and our new state has survived several wars of extermination.

Can you name another nation as functioning as the people of Israel?

(But then I am talking to someone who believes she speaks for G-d...)

Successfully updated karma reason!

"Defunct nation"? We have survived several attempted and executed genocides and our new state has survived several wars of extermination.

By "defunct nation of Old Israel" I'm speaking strictly in the theological religious sense.

Successfully updated karma reason!

By "defunct nation of Old Israel" I'm speaking strictly in the theological religious sense.

Which is irrelevant since it cannot be tested or falsified.

But don't you think that for a Christian, or anyone for that matter, to speak for Jesus is presumptuous?

Look at the guy who made the video "A View From the Cross". The video is clearly meant to show the world from Jesus' perspective, with commentary from Jesus' point of view.

Now, I don't believe that Jesus is G-d or even a prophet. So for me the only being that means to me what Jesus means to Christians is G-d Himself. And maybe it is a difference between the Jewish and the Christian religions, but I would _never_ make a video from the point of view of G-d (unless it is clearly meant as a joke) and I would _never_ assume that I speak for G-d. In fact it wouldn't even have occured to me. It's not a matter of thinking about it and resisting because it would be wrong, instead it's something I couldn't even fathom doing.

G-d is just too great and I can neither speak for Him nor think like Him and I cannot even understand Him or describe Him in any terms other than say what He is not. A mouse. A man. A physical being. A non-physical being. A father. A son. He is really none of these things.

So you can go on about details based on your faith that say things about my people and my religion that we cannot perceive and you cannot demonstrate. But the basic fact remains that we still regard G-d as our G-d and see ourselves as His people. And the reason I don't presume to speak for Him is just a symptom of this truth which will remain forever and outlive any religion and certainly any man who pretends to speak for G-d.

Successfully updated karma reason!

LULA POSTS 137

But this rebuilding a future temple has nothing to do with fulfillment of Sacred Scripture. Daniel's visions have all been fulfilled, including the 70 weeks (7 decades) which were the events leading up to the convental transition from the Old to the New.

Daniel predicted the destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple and Old Testament Judaism (what I call Biblical Judaism)...it happened.

Daniel's overall message was that God's spiritual kingdom came when the Messias appeared during the Roman Empire. The 70 weeks ended in 67-70AD by which time the 6 blessings bestowed on CHrist's Church were evident to the world. Just as the other OT prophets, Christ's birth, death, resurrection, and founding of the New COvenant Chruch and the judgment upon those who rejected His new Kingdom are the fulfillment of those prophecies.

re: the highlighted, Leauki posts: 142

Where does he predict that?

kfc posts: 142

in 9:26 when he said this:

"and after threescore and two weeks (62 weeks of years) shall Messiah (Jesus) be cut off (crucified) but not for himself (sinless) and the people of the prince THAT SHALL COME (anti-christ) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (Jerusalem and the temple) and the end thereof shall be with a flood (uninhabitable) and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

the very next verse v27 is future. It's called Daniel's 70th week and has NOT happened yet. It's the people NOT the A.C. who destroyed the temple. But the A.C. is predicted here would come in the end. It's the ungodly people (Romans) who were against God who did this in 70 A.D.

KFC, Here is your post showing both verses:

Read Daniel 9:26-27 very very carefully. I'll explain it as I write it out.

"And after threescore and two weeks (62 weeks) shall Messiah be cut off (crucified)but not for himself (sinless) and the people of the prince (not the prince) that shall come (anti-christ) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (Jerusalem and Temple) and end thereof shall be with a flood (70 AD) and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And he (anti-christ) shall confirm the covenant with many (what we're waiting for now) for one week, and in the middle of the week (halfway) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (abomination of desolation Christ spoke about in Matt 24:15) and for the overspreading of abominations he (anti-christ) shall make it desolate even until the consummation and that determined (preordained) shall be poured upon the desolate (end). "

Note the differences between KFC's translation and the Douay Rheims of Daniel 9: 26-27!!!

26 "And after sixty-two weeks Christ shall be slain; and the people that shall deny Him shall not be His. And a people with their leader that shall come; shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: and the end thereof shall be waste, and after the end of the war, the appointed desolation."

27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week, and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fail. And there shall be in the temple the abominaton of desolation. and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end."

Rapturists and Millennialists believe verse 26 was fulfilled in 70AD......and then there is this time gap........2,000 year and going .........verse 27 is in the future and centers on ethnic Israel rebuilding the Jerusalem Temple and the coming of the Messias who will set up His earthly Messianic Kingdom and rule over it for 1,000 years. This falsification of the kingdom is called Millenarianism which the CC has rejected....see the Catechism of the CC # 676.

Again, almost all of the Church Fathers have taught that verses 26 and 27 have been fulfilled...that Daniel's 70th week ended no later than 70AD. Daniel asks God for a timeline leading up to the Messiah's coming Kingdom and God reveals it to him. St.Jerome said, "None of the prophets has spoken so clearly concerning Christ....he set forth the very time at which He would come...stated the actual number of years involved, and announced beforehand the clearest signs." Scripture reveals Christ founded the kingdom of God during His First Advent. Since the kingdom has been established, the logical response is to look for it...the only Church that claims to be Christ's Kingdom is the Catholic Church.

So what do verses 26-27 mean?

Verse 26 "And after sixty-two weeks Christ shall be slain; and the people that shall deny Him shall not be His. And a people with their leader that shall come; shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: and the end thereof shall be waste, and after the end of the war, the appointed desolation."

"And a people with their leader" is the Romans under Titus, the head of the Roman legions who finished destroying Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD.

But the Romans under Titus weren't the only ones who destroyed the city. The Jews did at which Daniel only hinted. Jesus had warned the Jewish leaders that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was the direct result of His being cut off which they helped orchestrate. Read St.Luke 19:41-44. The Messias is the focus of the vision and the prince is Christ. The people of the prince were His own people, the Jewish people, they destroy the city.

The Jewish historian, Josephus was an eyewitness to the Jewish Roman War in 67AD. He wrote the "Wars of the Jews". He basically said the Jews destroyed themselves becasue of the abominations they performed. He tells that there were 3 warring factions within the walls of Jerusalem that caused devestation before the Romans ever entered the city. Jewish tradition claims there was food for 21 years,but the warring factions burned one another's stores of grain initiating a severe famine. He writes, "The Jews of Jerusalem "never suffered anything that was worse from the Romans than they made each other suffer. They overthrew the city themselves."

Daniel links the war over Jerusalem to the time of 'the end"...67-70AD. This destruction occurs at the end of the seventy sevens (70 weeks) and is that period after which the Messias has come and set up His kingdom, the Church.

v. 27 is about the strong covenant, sacrifice and judgment.

27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week, and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fail. And there shall be in the temple the abominaton of desolation. and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end."

Some background........Daniel's 70th week begins with the Incarnation (the Birth of Christ) around 4BC and spans 7 decades to 67-70AD. During that time is the time of convenantal transition (from the Old Covenant Judaism to the New Covenent Christianity of which the Church Fathers write.

"and He shall confirm the covenant with many", means that "He" is Christ and Christ shall confirm the covenant...which is the New Covenant in His Blood and it's everlasting. Isaias spoke of this 55:3; Ezek. 37:26; Jeremias 31:31; 33.

"in one week, and in the half of the week" means Christ preached 3 years and a half

" the victim and the sacrifice shall fail" means that halfway through the last week of seven decades the Christ caused the animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant to cease by sacrificing Himself to usher in a strong, new and everlasting Covenant in His Blood. By Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross abolished all the Old Covenant sacrifices.

And the last part of verse 27, "And there shall be in the temple the abominaton of desolation" means the Romans under Titus fulfilled this last part. First, the foreign army on Jewish soil was considered an abomination. The Romans practiced idolatry and they marched behind the ensign of an unclean bird, the eagle. Josephus writes, "They brought their ensigns to the Temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and their they did offer sacrifices to them." The Romans made the city desolate by tearing the Temple down to the very last stone. In the summer of 66 Jerusalem halted the daily sacrifices for Nero and this starrted the 42 month war between the Jews and the Romans.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Note the differences between KFC's translation and the Douay Rheims of Daniel 9: 26-27!!!

We already discussed this.

For me, only the Hebrew version counts. And we have already seen that KFC's translations are closer to the original Hebrew than yours. We have even seen that for the Greek Christian Bible. I checked it myself re "priest" vs "elder".

Successfully updated karma reason!

Note the differences between KFC's translation and the Douay Rheims of Daniel 9: 26-27!!!

We already discussed this. For me, only the Hebrew version counts. And we have already seen that KFC's translations are closer to the original Hebrew than yours. We have even seen that for the Greek Christian Bible. I checked it myself re "priest" vs "elder".

We sure have noted the differences in translations. And yes, the Protestant translations are indeed closer to yours....yours being the Jamnian Palestinian canon, a completely new version of Jewish Scripture omitting some books entirely and rewriting others by the Rabbis of Jamnia in 90AD.

The ancient Hebrew sacred Books and writings were translated into the Septuagint in 200BC by 70 Jewish scholars. That's when the standard canon of 46 Books of the Jewish Scripture was set. The Septuagint was used universally by Jews right up through the time of Christ.

The Jamnian Palestinian version is profoundly different from the original text of the Septuagint whiich was the Old Testament for Old Israel and has always been the Old Testment for the Church.

Oh yes, the Septuagint and the Jamnian Palestinaian are profoundly different.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I don't know what you mean by "standard canon", but there are several standards, depending on tribe and religion.

I have no idea whether those parts of the "Hebrew" Bible written in Ge'ez and acknowledges by the Israel tribe of Dan and Ethiopian Christians are the word of G-d or not. Perhaps they are, the word of G-d _to_ the tribe of Dan.

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Some background........Daniel's 70th week begins with the Incarnation (the Birth of Christ) around 4BC and spans 7 decades to 67-70AD.

NO IT DOESN"T. It tells us right in Daniel when it commences. God said CLEARLY to Daniel:

"Seventy weeks are determined for YOUR people and for YOUR holy city......know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until the Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks......."

so there you have it. It commences with the command to build Jerusalem AFTER the captivity. It has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus. Show me where it says that? You're making stuff up Lula...or following someone who is. The only thing you've got right here is the birth probably was 4 B.C.

The 70 weeks clearly start with the rebuilding of Jerusalem and goes 69 weeks. It's very clear. Show me here where I've got it wrong Lula. 62+7=69.

"in one week, and in the half of the week" means Christ preached 3 years and a half

one week is seven years Lula. Where does seven years fit into Christ's ministry? Again, you're trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole. It doesn't fit. There are NO seven decades mentioned anywhere. Where are you getting that? Seventy sevens is NOT seven decades. It's 490 years. Seven decades is 70 years. That amount of time can't be right because it says it commences with the rebuildng of Jerusalem which we know is 445 BC. We have the starting point. So how can it be 7 decades? Christ didn't preach 70 years after 445 B.C. We know the 445 B.C date is correct historically.

You're backdating scripture that wasn't meant to be backdated. It's future still. Jesus very clearly gave the signs for the end in Matt 24 that compliment what Daniel was saying and it has NOTHING to do with Christ's preaching. He was asked "what are the signs of the end of the age?" This is what Daniel was referring to. Your version makes absolutely NO SENSE! You're not putting it together expositionally.

I can see you're way over your head on this.

For me, only the Hebrew version counts

and it should. We should ALWAYS go to the source when there's a question. Always. That's the right thing to do Leauki. I agree wholeheartedly. Lula can't seem to get that. She thinks the Latin is the best source when it's not.

Successfully updated karma reason!

LEAUKI POSTS 152

The Temple was always the work of man. G-d doesn't need a temple. Man does.

Yes true, but what's the distinction between the OLd Testament Temple, Divine worship and ceremonies and the future one that some are planning to rebuild? God.

God gave Moses the clearest and most definite directions regarding the Tabernacle and the Temple. For example the LORD told Solomon, "I have heard thy prayer and I h ave sanctified (by My presence) this house which thou hast built; and my eyes and my heart shall be always there." But becasue of Solomon's apostasy, that all ended. Ditto with Herod's Temple, yet its ending has vastly more significance.

After the ninth hour Christ died. At that moment the Temple Veil was rent in two from top to bottom. The tearing of the Veil which had screened the Holy of Holies from the people's eyes did proclaim not only the end of the old Mosaic covenant, its sacrifices, ceremonies etc, but even of the Holy of Holies itself. God is telling the Jewish people who had rejected Christ something major here.

That's why I said that the rebuilding of the Temple will be a work of man, by man for man, and will be a work in vain, meaning that God isn't going to be anywherre near or backing the supposed rebuilding of the Jerusalem Temple that's being discussed.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Yes true, but what's the distinction between the Old Testament Temple, Divine worship and ceremonies and the future one that some are planning to rebuild? God.

No.

The answer is "time". G-d is eternal. He is not the difference between past and future.

I thinks so far we have seen two major differences between how we view G-d.

First, I think that no man can assume to speak for G-d, whereas you accept the idea that some can. I consider it a sin, you consider it appropriate.

Second, I think that G-d is eternal, you think He is changing and similar to time.

Successfully updated karma reason!

lula posts:

"standing in the holy place"....even if a future Jerusalem Temple will be built...it cannot be "the holy place" as God will not dwell there...."the holy place" is the Church of the New Covenant .....the sacrifice is the "clean oblation" on the Church altars.

kfc posts 149

The abomination of desolation predicted by Daniel, Christ and Paul (three) will take place and what happened in 165 B.C. with Antiochus Ephiphanes was just an example of what will once again happen. 70 A.D. makes absolutely NO sense because nobody sat in the Temple and declared himself God as Ephiphanes

KFC,

We agree Daniel's "abomination of desolation" has happened with Antiochus IV which is recounted in 1 and 2 Machabees and will have multiple fulfillments.

But carefully read Daniel's 3 references to the "abomination of desolation". You'll find it is a time when the "sacrifice and offering" cease 9:27, or when the "continual sacrifice" is replaced. 11:31; 12:11; 8:11-13.

Daniel's "Abomination of desolation" as a time when the "sacrifice and offering ceased" occurred in 67-70AD during the Jewish-Roman War which ended with the destruction of the Temple and the city of Jerusalem.

Go back and read St.Matthew 24:15 "abomination of desolation" and you'll find it refers to a sacrilege on the altar or desecration of the sanctuary of "the holy place" by a "man of sin" 2Thess. 2:3-4 or "Antichrist" 1St. John 2:18 who must come prior to the end of the world.

70AD fits Daniel's "abomination of desolation" as there was a desecration of the sanctuary of "the holy place" by a "man of sin". Titus was a pagan a "man of sin" and he profaned the Temple.

Why was 70AD a fulfillment of Daniel 9:26-27? Read St.Matt. 26: 64. At His trial Jesus quoting Daniel told the Sanhedrin which condemned Him that they will see the day (in their generation) when He "the Son of Man" comes to judge them. And He did...the Temple is no more...and ever since there has been a religious poverty and famine of the former people of God for, of their own doing, they are "without King, without Prince, without sacrifice and without altar." Osee 3:4.

I agree the "abomination of desolation" will take place in the future at the time of Antichrist who will sit "in the holy place".

You say "the holy place" is going to be a future rebuilt Temple and I say, "no way, Jose".

Now concerning AC and the abomination of desolation, Antichrist isn't going to give a hoot about animal sacrifices or putting a stop to them. It's the sacrifice associated with the New Covenant worship in the Holy Mass that will cease or be replaced by a pseudo sacrifice when Satan is loosed and Antichrist is revealed.

"standing in the holy place"....even if a future Jerusalem Temple will be built...it cannot be "the holy place" as God will not dwell there...Almighty God has made that plain in 33Ad when the Temple Veil was rent in two from top to bottom.

In this passage, "the holy place" is the Church of the New Covenant .....the sacrifice is the "clean oblation" on the Church altars located all over the world as per the fulfillment of Malachais 1:11.

These passages are not predicting a future Jerusalem Temple in which the AC will desolate. The Temple here is the New Covenant Church the Catholic Church.

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

But becasue of Solomon's apostasy, that all ended.

can you back this up with scripture?

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

These passages are not predicting a future Jerusalem Temple in which the AC will desolate. The Temple here is the New Covenant Church the Catholic Church.

ok, you keep believing that nonesense. I'll take the truth.

Successfully updated karma reason!

lula posts:

Some background........Daniel's 70th week begins with the Incarnation (the Birth of Christ) around 4BC and spans 7 decades to 67-70AD.

kfc posts 161:

NO IT DOESN"T. It tells us right in Daniel when it commences. God said CLEARLY to Daniel:

"Seventy weeks are determined for YOUR people and for YOUR holy city......know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until the Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks......."

KFC,

Will you please read my comments more carefully?

I said, "Daniel's 70th week....". When Daniel's 70th week begins or commences.....

There is a difference between when Daniel's 70th week commences (meaning the last week and what this discussion has been focused on) and when Daniel's Seventy weeks (meaning the entire time line of Daniel's prophecy....490 years) commences.

Daniel's 70th week is the last week of the Seventy weeks. I think with the Church Fathers who say Daniel's 70th week has been fulfilled in Christ's First Coming and you think with the Rapturists and Millennialists who say Daniel's 70th week is in the future.

so there you have it. It commences with the command to build Jerusalem AFTER the captivity. It has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus. Show me where it says that? You're making stuff up Lula...or following someone who is. The only thing you've got right here is the birth probably was 4 B.C.

The 70 weeks clearly start with the rebuilding of Jerusalem and goes 69 weeks. It's very clear. Show me here where I've got it wrong Lula. 62+7=69.

OK, I'll comment on that. Do you agree it's 490 years?

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Will you please read my comments more carefully?

I said, "Daniel's 70th week....". When Daniel's 70th week begins or commences.....

ok, sorry. You're right. I thought you meant the whole 70 weeks. My bad.

Do you agree it's 490 years?

yes. Starting with the 444-445 B.C. date. But there is nothing that shows us that his last week has anything to do with his birth. How can it when it says after 62 weeks (after the first 7) the Messiah is cut off? If he's cut off at the 69th week how can the 70th week be his birth? Makes no sense.

Successfully updated karma reason!

But becasue of Solomon's apostasy, that all ended.

can you back this up with scripture?

Yes.

Solomon's apostasy and Almighty God's punishment is found in 3 Kings 11: 1-15.

1 And king Solomon loved many strange women besides the daughter of Pharao, and women of Moab, and of Ammon, and of Edom, and of Sidon, and of the Hethites: 2 Of the nations concerning which the Lord said to the children of Israel: You shall not go in unto them, neither shall any of them come in to yours: for they will most certainly turn away your heart to follow their gods. And to these was Solomon joined with a most ardent love. 3 And he had seven hundred wives as queens, and three hundred concubines: and the women turned away his heart. 4 And when he was now old, his heart was turned away by women to follow strange gods: and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5 But Solomon worshipped Astarthe the goddess of the Sidonians, and Moloch the idol of the ammonites.

6 And Solomon did that which was net pleasing before the Lord, and did not fully follow the Lord, as David his father. 7 Then Solomon built a temple for Chamos the idol of Moab, on the hill that is over against Jerusalem, and for Moloch the idol of the children of Ammon. 8 And he did in this manner for all his wives that were strangers, who burnt incense, and offered sacrifice to their gods. 9 And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his mind was turned away from the Lord the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, 10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not follow strange gods: but he kept not the things which the Lord commanded him.

11 The Lord therefore said to Solomon: Because thou hast done this, and hast not kept my covenant, and my precepts, which I have commanded thee, I will divide and rend thy kingdom, and will give it to thy servant. 12 Nevertheless in thy days I will not do it, for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son. 13 Neither will I take away the whole kingdom, but I will give one tribe to thy son for the sake of David my servant, and Jerusalem which I have chosen. 14 And the Lord raised up an adversary to Solomon, Adad the Edomite of the king's seed, in Edom. 15 For when David was in Edom, and Joab the general of the army was gone up to bury them that were slain, and had killed every male in Edom,

Solomon's reign was glorious at the beginning, but it's end was deplorable. He built palaces to heathen women who turned him away from God and he offered incence to false gods and built temples to them. In other words, he sanctioned idolatry and even enforced it. His monarchy was divided into 2 kingdoms (Israel and Judah) becasue of his apostasy from the faith of the one true God. His rebellion agains t God brought the rebellion of his people against himself.

The kingdom of Israel lasted for 253 from 975 to 722 BC and during that time it had 19 kings, belonging to 10 different families who all did evil in the sight of God. The Kingdom of Judah lasted 387 years till 588 BC. It had 20 kings all in the family of David, of whom the greater number were wicked.

And that's why God raised up the holy people known as the OT prophets...to bring people back to Him and to preserve the true faith of God. They announced the judgments which would fall on them if they were not converted and they pointed onwards to the hope of Israel, the Redeemer, foretelling many things about Him. The Lord chose Jeremias to write the truth concerning the apostates of his day.

Anyway, in the days of Elijah as in the days of Jeremias only 7.000 did not fall into apostasy. Romans 11:4-5.

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

God gave Moses the clearest and most definite directions regarding the Tabernacle and the Temple. For example the LORD told Solomon, "I have heard thy prayer and I h ave sanctified (by My presence) this house which thou hast built; and my eyes and my heart shall be always there." But becasue of Solomon's apostasy, that all ended

this is what you said in its entirety.

I asked you for a reference showing us where regarding the Tabernacle and the Temple it was ended because of Solomon. What you highlighted in your last response does not say anything about the Temple being a done deal. In fact, after the captivity God had the Jews rebuild the temple under Nehemiah and Zerubbabel. So what you say above is not a right interpretation.

Solomon did come around at the end of his life and turn back to God. He realized his sin and repented. But consequences still have to be paid so yes the kingdom was divided. But that still doesn't have anything to do with a point you're trying to force about the temple, in your words, "all ended." That's just flat out wrong.

Like Leauki has told you before, you don't have a good grasp on Jewish history. You've got alot of things discombobulated.

Here you brought up Moses and then tried to tie this into Solomon but one is completely different than another. The reason the Jews went into captivity and lost the temple was because they didn't keep the Sabbath for 70 yrs so God put them into exile for 70 years. But still that doesn't have anything to do with the temple being ended because God raised up another temple after the captivity.

Lula, for future reference I don't read what you put down when you put long scriptures down. So you shouldn't waste your time. Short scriptures are ok but long ones don't usually get read. I prefer to read it myself from my own book. So citing the scripture is great but taking the time to write it all out isn't worth your time.

And we don't have 3 Kings.

Successfully updated karma reason!

lula posts:

Some background........Daniel's 70th week begins with the Incarnation (the Birth of Christ) around 4BC and spans 7 decades to 67-70AD.

It tells us right in Daniel when it commences. God said CLEARLY to Daniel:

"Seventy weeks are determined for YOUR people and for YOUR holy city......know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until the Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks......."

so there you have it. It commences with the command to build Jerusalem AFTER the captivity. It has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus. Show me where it says that? You're making stuff up Lula...or following someone who is. The only thing you've got right here is the birth probably was 4 B.C.

The 70 weeks clearly start with the rebuilding of Jerusalem and goes 69 weeks. It's very clear. Show me here where I've got it wrong Lula. 62+7=69

It says that and answers "when will the kingdom of the Messias come" in Daniel's initial vision which lays the framework for the entire book. All of Daniel's visions revisit and elaborate on this foundation. In short, Daniel's visions prophecy the First Coming of Christ and the establishment of His kingdom.

Right from the getgo, I know it has to include the birth of Christ from reading 2:34-35. We learn that during the fourth empire, "A stone was cut out of a mountain by no human hand, and it struck the statue upon the feet thereon that were of iron and of clay...so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth." Now go to verse 44 and Daniel interprets this to mean that while the 4th kingdom is still in existence,"the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed and His kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and itself shall stand forever."

The stone which grows into a great mountain symbolizes Christ at His First Advent. His reign established through His Passion supercedes bigtime all the kingdoms of men. During the fourth empire the Messianic kingdom will be established and from the point of history of Christ's Passion onward, God's kingdom is predicted to endure forever. The stone is Christ and the Messianic kingdomthat will come is the result of His Passion and Death...(being cut off).

So to sum up, During the time of the fourth empire, which is when Rome ruled over Jerusalem, the Messias Christ would come (Christ's First Advent) and set up His kingdom which would grow to encompass the entire world and last forever.

Successfully updated karma reason!

post 161

lula posts: Some background........Daniel's 70th week begins with the Incarnation (the Birth of Christ) around 4BC and spans 7 decades to 67-70AD.

KFC posts:

NO IT DOESN"T. It tells us right in Daniel when it commences. God said CLEARLY to Daniel:

"Seventy weeks are determined for YOUR people and for YOUR holy city......know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until the Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks......."

so there you have it. It commences with the command to build Jerusalem AFTER the captivity. It has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus. Show me where it says that? You're making stuff up Lula...or following someone who is. The only thing you've got right here is the birth probably was 4 B.C.

The 70 weeks clearly start with the rebuilding of Jerusalem and goes 69 weeks. It's very clear. Show me here where I've got it wrong Lula. 62+7=69.

lula posts

Do you agree it's 490 years?

kfc posts:

yes. Starting with the 444-445 B.C. date. But there is nothing that shows us that his last week has anything to do with his birth. How can it when it says after 62 weeks (after the first 7) the Messiah is cut off? If he's cut off at the 69th week how can the 70th week be his birth? Makes no sense

Now let's get to the numbers.

Remember Daniel wrote this to encourage the Israelites who had been persecuted and taken into captivity by the Babylonians in 606BC. So, Jeremias foretold that the captivity of Babylon would last 70 years and that the Jews would return to their own country. Counting from the first carrying off of the people into captivity brings us to the year 536. (606-70 years = 536).

Daniel essentially renewed this promise and added more consoling information, namely that from the day on which the order would be given to rebuild Jerusalem to the death of the Messias (His being cut off) there would remain only 70 weeks of years that is, 490 years. The Jews knew not only the family from which the Savior would come, but also the city where He'd be born, and the year in which He would be cut off.

And, if it wasn't for the grace of God's mercy working through Cyrus the Mede, King of Persia, Judaism may have been wiped out then.So, in the 70th year of their captivity, Cyrus, by Divine inspiration, issued an edict that all the Jews who were in his kingdom should go back to Jerusalem and rebuild the Temple.

Daniel 9:24-27, "Seventy weeks are decreed concerning thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting justice, to fulfill both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy, (the 6 blessings) 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem again, unto Christ the Prince, there shall be seven weeks, and sixty two weeks: and the streets shall be built again and the walls but in a troubled time. 26 And after 62 weeks, Christ shall be slain; and the people that deny Him shall not be His. And a people with their leader shall come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be waste, and after the end of the war the appointed desolation. 27 And He shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week; and in the half of the week, the victim and the sacrifice shall fail; and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation; and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation and to the end."

The second half of verse 24 gives a specific length of time before the Christ began to preach and teach and execute the office of the Messias. I arrive at the 490 years by understanding both the first and last week as decades. This would mean that the duration of t he Messias' arrival would be 7 times seven (49) decades = 490 years.

The 490 year timeline starts with a decree to restore and build Jerusalem including the walls. King Artaxerxes issued a decree to rebuild the city in 457 and according to Nehemias 2:3-13, the walls were finished around 444 BC.

V. 25, The first set of 7 weeks denotes the 49 decades from 457 BC, the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the public arrival of Our Lord, the Anointed One, the Messias in 30-33AD. The vision states the rebuilding of Jerusalem, the walls and streets will span this second set of weeks, 62 weeks. It also says it will be built in troubled times. History confirms they found themselves in trouble with the Persians, Alexander the Great, the Ptolemies of Egypt, the Seleucids of Syria, all the way to 10BC, when Herod would complete Zerrubbalel's efforts in time for the Messias to enter during His first Advent.

Historically, this is an accurate fulfillment of Daniel's middle 62 weeks. They began in 444 and ended in 10BC, 434 years (62 weeks later).

Daniel's last week, the 70th week, picks up here...with Christ's First Advent, His birth, life, Passion and Death.

In Verse 26 we see how the killing of the Messias is linked to the Temple. The Messias will be killed and both the Temple and Jerusalem will meet its ruin which happened during their generation in 70AD. The destruction brings an end to the 70 weeks.

In verse 27 the vision rewinds (recapitulates) and we get more details which is very typical of apocalyptic literature.

KFC,

Do you see that in verse 24 Daniel states the purpose of these 70 weeks is to bestow 6 blessings? I believe these were bestowed during Christ's First Advent which means Daniel's 70 th week is history. What say you?

Successfully updated karma reason!

lula posts:

God gave Moses the clearest and most definite directions regarding the Tabernacle and the Temple. For example the LORD told Solomon, "I have heard thy prayer and I h ave sanctified (by My presence) this house which thou hast built; and my eyes and my heart shall be always there." But becasue of Solomon's apostasy, that all ended

KFC posts

this is what you said in its entirety.

I asked you for a reference showing us where regarding the Tabernacle and the Temple it was ended because of Solomon. What you highlighted in your last response does not say anything about the Temple being a done deal. In fact, after the captivity God had the Jews rebuild the temple under Nehemiah and Zerubbabel. So what you say above is not a right interpretation.

Solomon did come around at the end of his life and turn back to God. He realized his sin and repented. But consequences still have to be paid so yes the kingdom was divided. But that still doesn't have anything to do with a point you're trying to force about the temple, in your words, "all ended." That's just flat out wrong.

The whole point of this discussion has been around the Jewish Temples...which in case you haven't noticed according to Scripture and history, there aren't any anymore. WHY? I've already answered.

Now, since according to you, I'm "flat out wrong", it's your turn to answer WHY is there no Jerusalem Temple anymore?

Lula, for future reference I don't read what you put down when you put long scriptures down. So you shouldn't waste your time. Short scriptures are ok but long ones don't usually get read. I prefer to read it myself from my own book. So citing the scripture is great but taking the time to write it all out isn't worth your time.

Ok, you don't read what I write...that's you. I'm me and I have my own style of writing and commenting. If putting down the full scripture helps make my point, then that's what I do...and btw, I'm quite happy to do it, but it's fine with me if you don't read it.

And we don't have 3 Kings.

I thought you might have it in 2Chronicles, but upon investigation, your chapter 9 in the KJV about the queen of Sheba ends with Solomon's death. This account which is chapter 11 in the DR is missing.

Isn't it Deuteronomy that says you shall not add to the word nor take away?

Why would a self-styled, "It's the Bible and the Bible alone" Christian be working with less than a full deck!

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Do you see that in verse 24 Daniel states the purpose of these 70 weeks is to bestow 6 blessings? I believe these were bestowed during Christ's First Advent which means Daniel's 70 th week is history. What say you?

Three are related to sin and three are related to righteousness. The first three have to do with his first coming, the second set of three have to do with his second coming. So we would disagree here. Again, because you are backdating everything.

1. to finish the transgression........(to end aposty of the Jews)

2. To make an end of sins.........(atone for sin)

3. to make reconciliation for iniquity....(refers to the death of Christ on the cross which is the basis for Israel's future forgiveness)

1. to bring in everlasting righteousness

2. To seal up the vision and prophecy

3. To anoint the mosty Holy.

Ok, you don't read what I write...that's you. I'm me and I have my own style of writing and commenting. If putting down the full scripture helps make my point,

but that's it Lula it doesn't help you at all. Many have told me they don't even read what you write most of the time because you put in lengthy responses. It's too much information. I don't read half of it myself that's what I'm trying to tell you. I've tried to tell you before. It's FYI.

[quote]Now, since according to you, I'm "flat out wrong", it's your turn to answer WHY is there no Jerusalem Temple anymore?[/quote

For the sake of this discussion it doesn't matter why. You wrote that because of Solomon and his sin (even though he was right with God at the very end) that the temple would be done away with. That is not true. You still haven't shown me even using your own DR version where that is. Saying his kingdom would be divided (and it was) doesn't prove anything about the temple being a done deal especially since God was totally into having the second temple rebuilt later on.

Successfully updated karma reason!