A View From the Cross » Forum Post by lulapilgrim

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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Daniel's last week, the 70th week, picks up here...with Christ's First Advent, His birth, life, Passion and Death.

why can't you see that this CAN'T be right? It's ONLY a 7 year period. It doesn't fit with what you're saying. Christ was born, died and was resurrected and then almost 40 years later the temple was destroyed. How can that possibly fall into a seven year period? The first 69 weeks was exactly 483 years leading up to his death....EXACTLY leaving one more seven year period. So going by that formula the last week is a seven year period. It had to start sometime AFTER he was "cut off" as Daniel says. It can't be the time of the destruction of the temple because that happened way after seven years later that Christ was crucified. It can't have started with the temple being destroyed because that doesn't make sense with Revelation nor did it take seven years to destroy it.

It's like you're just plucking it out of the air to make it so. Makes NO SENSE.

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KFC posts:

You wrote that because of Solomon and his sin (even though he was right with God at the very end)

Re: the highlighted...I know this from Apostolic Tradition which you reject.....so, can you back this up in Scripture?

lula posts:

God gave Moses the clearest and most definite directions regarding the Tabernacle and the Temple. For example the LORD told Solomon, "I have heard thy prayer and I h ave sanctified (by My presence) this house which thou hast built; and my eyes and my heart shall be always there." But becasue of Solomon's apostasy, that all ended

kfc posts:

....... You wrote that because of Solomon and his sin (even though he was right with God at the very end) that the temple would be done away with. That is not true. You still haven't shown me even using your own DR version where that is. Saying his kingdom would be divided (and it was) doesn't prove anything about the temple being a done deal especially since God was totally into having the second temple rebuilt later on.

What I said about Solomon is true. The Temples ended becasue of the Jews unfaithfulness to God's covenantal laws and apostasy. 3 Kings 11 confirms it. Becasue of Solomon's apostasy, God divided the kingdom. The kingdom of Juda fell into apostasy. They became so hardened in sin that even the Divine chastisements no longer had any effect. They practiced idolatry and even persecuted God's prophets putting some of them to death.

Finally the Lord God's patience was exhausted and Isaias foretold of the ruin which fell upon the people. Nebuchodonozor took Jerusalem after an 18 month seige. The entire city was in fire and pillaged. Thousands were killled and the streets literally ran with blood. The Temple was destroyed and the walls overthrown. Solomon's Temple was destroyed in 588 BC.

Jeremias chose to remain in the ruins of the Temple and was consoled knowing that God would make a new covenant with His new people. "Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, which they made void. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the House of Isreal after those days....." The New Covenant foretold by Jeremias was institutued by Jesus Christ. The OC was an external law which couldn't effect justification or sanctification.

The Temple was rebuilt by Zorobabel and was plundered and desecrated in 169BC by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. It was restored and enlarged by Herod in 10BC. In 33AD, at the moment of Christ's death, God rent the Temple Veil in two from top to bottom. God was telling the Jews and the world His presence there in the Holy of Holies would be no more. In 70AD, the Temple was forever destroyed by Titus.

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Daniel 9:24-27, "Seventy weeks are decreed concerning thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting justice, to fulfill both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy, (the 6 blessings)

Do you see that in verse 24 Daniel states the purpose of these 70 weeks is to bestow 6 blessings? I believe these were bestowed during Christ's First Advent which means Daniel's 70 th week is history. What say you?

kfc posts:

Three are related to sin and three are related to righteousness. The first three have to do with his first coming, the second set of three have to do with his second coming. So we would disagree here. Again, because you are backdating everything.

1. to finish the transgression........(to end aposty of the Jews)

2. To make an end of sins.........(atone for sin)

3. to make reconciliation for iniquity....(refers to the death of Christ on the cross which is the basis for Israel's future forgiveness)

1. to bring in everlasting righteousness

2. To seal up the vision and prophecy

3. To anoint the mosty Holy.

No doubt whatsoever that all six blessings of the 70 weeks have been bestowed by Christ already. C'mon KFC....If not for the Passion how could we realistically ever even hope for these last three? But that's me and the unanimous historical interpretation of the Church.

And you're you. So how do you figure the last three pertain to Christ's Second Coming?

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lula 172

Daniel 9:24-27, "Seventy weeks are decreed concerning thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting justice, to fulfill both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy, (the 6 blessings) 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem again, unto Christ the Prince, there shall be seven weeks, and sixty two weeks: and the streets shall be built again and the walls but in a troubled time. 26 And after 62 weeks, Christ shall be slain; and the people that deny Him shall not be His. And a people with their leader shall come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be waste, and after the end of the war the appointed desolation. 27 And He shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week; and in the half of the week, the victim and the sacrifice shall fail; and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation; and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation and to the end."

The second half of verse 24 gives a specific length of time before the Christ began to preach and teach and execute the office of the Messias. I arrive at the 490 years by understanding both the first and last week as decades. This would mean that the duration of t he Messias' arrival would be 7 times seven (49) decades = 490 years.

The 490 year timeline starts with a decree to restore and build Jerusalem including the walls. King Artaxerxes issued a decree to rebuild the city in 457 and according to Nehemias 2:3-13, the walls were finished around 444 BC.

V. 25, The first set of 7 weeks denotes the 49 decades from 457 BC, the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the public arrival of Our Lord, the Anointed One, the Messias in 30-33AD. The vision states the rebuilding of Jerusalem, the walls and streets will span this second set of weeks, 62 weeks. It also says it will be built in troubled times. History confirms they found themselves in trouble with the Persians, Alexander the Great, the Ptolemies of Egypt, the Seleucids of Syria, all the way to 10BC, when Herod would complete Zerrubbalel's efforts in time for the Messias to enter during His first Advent.

Historically, this is an accurate fulfillment of Daniel's middle 62 weeks. They began in 444 and ended in 10BC, 434 years (62 weeks later).

Daniel's last week, the 70th week, picks up here...with Christ's First Advent, His birth, life, Passion and Death.

In Verse 26 we see how the killing of the Messias is linked to the Temple. The Messias will be killed and both the Temple and Jerusalem will meet its ruin which happened during their generation in 70AD. The destruction brings an end to the 70 weeks.

In verse 27 the vision rewinds (recapitulates) and we get more details which is very typical of apocalyptic literature.

kfc posts

why can't you see that this CAN'T be right? It's ONLY a 7 year period. It doesn't fit with what you're saying.

KFC, Did you READ what I wrote... (gulp) I know it was long!!! I said: I arrive at the 490 years by understanding both the first and last week as decades. This would mean that the duration of t he Messias' arrival would be 7 times seven (49) decades = 490 years.

The first 69 weeks was exactly 483 years leading up to his death....EXACTLY leaving one more seven year period. So going by that formula the last week is a seven year period.

The 7 appears 4 times in the vision. The 70 sevens is subdivided into a first set of seven sevens, a second set of 62 sevens, and a final set of seven called the last week. I see the last week as decades and you see the last week as a 7 year period.

There are reasons for things. In their desire to deny that Christ set up His kingdom during His First Coming and the need for animal sacrifices in a rebuilt Temple about the time the "Great Tribulation" begins, Rapturists/Millennialists have employed Scriptural gymnastics to Daniel's timeline.

They assume all these sevens signify years and start by placing the first set and the second set in chronological order and then insert a 2,000 year (and counting) time gap between the second set of 62 weeks and the last week. The time gap is in the middle of verse 26 between the 69th and the 70th week. How many times have we heard the 70th week is still in the future?

The 2,000 year insertion and the 70th week still in the future is at the heart of the Rapturist/Millennialist belief system.

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lula posts:

These passages are not predicting a future Jerusalem Temple in which the AC will desolate. The Temple here is the New Covenant Church the Catholic Church.

KFC POSTS

ok, you keep believing that nonesense. I'll take the truth.

I told the truth and you call it nonsense.

In Biblical Judaism the Old Covenent people of God had the Temple and sacrifices that were prescribed by God HImself. The sacrifices were the offering to God of some sanctified object made by a legitimate priest. Through sacrifice the priest expresses adoration, thanksgiving as well as intercession or supplication towards God. Sacrifice is also an act of sorrow for offenses against God.

In the OLd Covenant, the sacrfice was an essential element of man's relation with the Lord God. Is it not expected then that in the New Covenant religion of Jesus Christ which is universal and intended for all people and nations there should be a sacrifice?

Was Christ's New Covenant Church to lack what the Old Covenant Temple possessed? No way for Scriptute is clear the New Covenant is the fulfillment and completion of the OLd. In Hebrews, St.Paul made it clear to the Jewish converts that Christianity has a sacrifice just as had Biblical Judaism, but the two are distinct.

In the OLd Covenant these sacrifices were lambs, goats, doves, oil, bread, salt, wine and other things that were offered to the Lord God. The New and Everlasting Covenant is founded on the sacrifice of the Cross from which it receives its life and meaning. And Christ Our Lord, King and Eternal High Priest told us how this supreme sacrifice was to be perpetuated in Christianity.

The OT prophet Malachais 1:10-11 speaks of the sacrifice of the New Covenant, "I have no pleaure in you ( priests of Jewry), said the Lord of hosts: and I will not receive a gift of your hand. For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is a sacrfice, and there is offered to My name a clean oblation."

So, clearly and definitely the sacrifices of the Old Covenant is rejected, and its place is to be taken by a clean oblation (unbloody sacrifice) offered universally from the rising of the sun to its going down by the Gentiles.

The Antichrist isn't going to give a hoot about reinstituted animal sacrifices in a future rebuilt Jerusalem Temple...the AC is against Christ every which way. The Sacrifice of the New Covenant consists of an unbloody offering under the Catholic rite of bread and wine consecrated into the Real Presence, the Body and BLood of our Lord Jesus Christ. The AC "abomination of desolation" in the New Covenant Temple (the Church) has to do with that.

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There is no "Old Covenant".

G-d is eternal and so are His promises.

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There is no "Old Covenant".

Says you.

The Law and Covenant of Moses as opposed to the New Covenant of Jesus Christ which in part fulfilled and in part superceded it.

G-d is eternal and so are His promises.

Man cannot become God, however God can become man and He did in the Divine Person of Jesus Christ Who is Eternal.

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Says you.

I also say that G-d is eternal and that His word is forever.

You believe in a god that isn't the god of Israel. That's fine with me. Judaism does not prescribe what non-Jews must believe. (It doesn't even prescribe what Jews must believe.)

You have your god and I have mine.

But my god is capable of protecting my people despite the fact that there are so few of us and so many of you. Our numbers make us weak but our god makes us strong.

You will never understand that, Lula.

The Law and Covenant of Moses as opposed to the New Covenant of Jesus Christ which in part fulfilled and in part superceded it.

Still waiting for world peace, the return of all Jews to Israel and the Third Temple...

My Messiah will make all these things come about.

I can only tell you what Jews believe. But I don't assume that I can tell you what your god wants.

Man cannot become God, however God can become man and He did in the Divine Person of Jesus Christ Who is Eternal.

If Jesus is your god, he cannot be my messiah.

Your god isn't my god and your messiah is not my messiah.

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There is no "Old Covenant".

G-d is eternal and so are His promises.

The Jews were the only specially selected people in the world with whom the Lord God made a Covenant a contract so to speak in the days before the coming of the Messias. The coveneant was a bilateral contract, in the sens ethat the reward God promised would go to the elect IF they were faithful to His commands and prophecies. God told Moses to tell the Jews,

"IF therefore you will hear My voice and keep My covenant, you shall be My pecular possession above all people for all the earth is mine and you shall be to Me a priestly kingdom and a holy nation...." Exodus 19:5-6.

Leauki,

Did you notice that little word "IF" at the beginning? The covenant was conditional. God kept His part of the Covenant...but the Jews did not keep theirs.

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First you write:

I also say that G-d is eternal and that His word is forever.

and then this:

But my god is capable of protecting my people despite the fact that there are so few of us and so many of you. Our numbers make us weak but our god makes us strong.

Hmmm..is this the same God?

Still waiting for world peace, the return of all Jews to Israel and the Third Temple...

This is according to Maimonades.

The Messias Christ brought peace...spiritual peace. Jewry thinks in the physical and so they entirely miss this.

Judaism does not prescribe what non-Jews must believe. (It doesn't even prescribe what Jews must believe.)

Modern Judaism may not prescribe what Jews must believe. However, Biblical Judaism through Moses most definitey taught God's ordinances (commandments) of what you must believe and do and not do. Starting with the first...thou shalt believe I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. The Ten Commandments are still in force and will be until the end of time.

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The Jews were the only specially selected people in the world with whom the Lord God made a Covenant a contract so to speak in the days before the coming of the Messias. The coveneant was a bilateral contract, in the sens ethat the reward God promised would go to the elect IF they were faithful to His commands and prophecies. God told Moses to tell the Jews,

"IF therefore you will hear My voice and keep My covenant, you shall be My pecular possession above all people for all the earth is mine and you shall be to Me a priestly kingdom and a holy nation...." Exodus 19:5-6.

Leauki,

Did you notice that little word "IF" at the beginning? The covenant was conditional. God kept His part of the Covenant...but the Jews did not keep theirs.

We are faithful to His commandments.

Who are you to say that we aren't? You, Lula, despite what you seem to believe, are NOT G-d.

We hear his voice, we keep his covenant. What follows from that is a matter of belief.

We wouldn't have got our land back if G-d hadn't ended our exile.

This is according to Maimonades.

Who was commenting on Biblical prophecies.

The Messias Christ brought peace...spiritual peace. Jewry thinks in the physical and so they entirely miss this.

Spiritual X is not X.

Do you promise your children a Playstation for Christmas and then tell them that they got a "spiritual Playstation"? Would you explain to them that your religion says that promises can be broken as long as one uses the word "spiritual"?

You see, in my religion, promises are never broken, especially not by G-d Himself.

Modern Judaism may not prescribe what Jews must believe. However, Biblical Judaism through Moses most definitey taught God's ordinances (commandments) of what you must believe and do and not do. S

Judaism never prescribed what Jews must believe. The commandments are about what one must and must not do.

Starting with the first...thou shalt believe I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. The Ten Commandments are still in force and will be until the end of time.

The first commandments does not say "Thou shalt believe...", it says "I am [name of G-d], thy god".

The second commandment is about loyalty to one's own god. None of the commandments say anything about what one must believe.

It's impossible to dictate belief.

You totally and absolutely don't understand how Judaism works and has always worked. It is a tribal religion. Every tribe, city or nation had its god and loyalty to one's own people was measured by loyalty to the tribal god. (Try explaining how this is true about "modern" Judaism but not about bronze age Judaism!)

Incidentally, commandment number three prohibits what you are doing: using G-d's name falsely. You pretend to be speaking for G-d. That's precisely what commandment three prohibits.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

The Messias Christ brought peace...spiritual peace. Jewry thinks in the physical and so they entirely miss this.

This is true Lula but the Prince of Peace will eventually bring in physical peace as well. That's what the Jews are waiting for.

If Jesus is your god, he cannot be my messiah.

He will be Leauki if you let him. But I understand what you're saying because Lula is misrepresenting God here when it comes to the Jews so I know what you mean.

But my god is capable of protecting my people despite the fact that there are so few of us and so many of you. Our numbers make us weak but our god makes us strong.

This is quite good Leauki and very biblical. Are you familiar with the story of Gideon in the book of Judges?

The Temples ended becasue of the Jews unfaithfulness to God's covenantal laws and apostasy. 3 Kings 11 confirms it.

NO IT DIDN'T. God BUILT A SECOND TEMPLE (as he did the first) AFTER SOLOMON! You're not making any sense. Jesus worshipped in the Temple. He partook of the Passover EVERY YEAR in the temple. Would Jesus (as God) have done this if what you say is true? Didn't Jesus himself say "a house divided against itself would fall?" If God the father didn't approve then why would the Son (who is united totally with the father) have gone against Him...especially when it was all about "the father's will" not his own? You're all mixed up Lula. Not making any sense. Read the end of Matthew 23.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killed the prophets and stonest them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children together even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not. Behold your house is left to you desolate. For I say to you. you sahll not see me again untill you shall say blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord. "

Their house was left to them desolate because they rejected Him as they did the prophets before him. He was thinking about Zechariah 12:10 when this prophecy will one day come to pass when the Jews will finally recognize Him for who He is.

(even though he was right with God at the very end)

Re: the highlighted...I know this from Apostolic Tradition which you reject.....so, can you back this up in Scripture?

most certainly can!~

First of all he wouldn't have TWO books written by Him in scripture plus many Proverbs and Psalms ascribed to him if he wasn't right with God. Who else has written scripture that was not right with God?

Solomon pursued fulfillment thru indulgences, achievements, possessions, fame and wealth. He came to understand all failed to bring enduring satisfaction.

At the end of his book he wrote this:

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep his commandments for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment with every secret thing, wheter it be good or wheter it be evil." Ecc 12:13-14

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

We are faithful to His commandments.

this is not true Leauki. Keeping the whole law was impossible. The whole reason for the law was to show God's heart. God knew how hard it would be to keep it. That's why the sacrificial system was put in place.

The whole reason for the law and sacrificial system was to drive us back to him. Ever since sin entered the picture it put a wedge between man and God. He instituted the law and the sacrificial system to bridge the gap between a Holy God and sinful man. God is so Holy and so pure, there is no place for sin in his presence. Anyone who drew near to God or his throne was on his face. Daniel, Isaiah, John, Peter, etc.

Remember what Isaiah the great prophet said?

"and I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne high and lifted up and his train filled the temple........then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone, because I am a man of unclean lips and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips for mine eyes have seen the King the Lord of hosts. Then flew one of the seraphims to me having a live coal in his hand which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar; and he laid it upon my mouth and said Lo, this has touched your lips and your iniquity is taken away and your sin purged." Chapter 6.

That's why Moses wrote that there would come a prophet that we would listen to one day that would be like him. Jesus was the perfect unblemished lamb who bridged the gap between us and God. Our righteousness (like Isaiah's and all the rest of the prophets) are as filthy rags and we can't go before the king dressed like that. So Christ came and became the righteousness that we were not for us. It's his blood that purifies us just like that coal purified Isaiah before the Lord. So by believing in the one and only genuine sacrifice can God let us into His presence one day. Without it we stand naked before him.

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this is not true Leauki. Keeping the whole law was impossible. The whole reason for the law was to show God's heart. God knew how hard it would be to keep it. That's why the sacrificial system was put in place.

I didn't say we keep the law all the time (which is impossible, as you say), but that we are faithful.

A thief can be forgiven and can still be faithful the the law itself.

Maybe when we become not faithful, G-d allows evil godless people to punish us. And when we are faithful He protects us. It's a common thought.

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You have your god and I have mine.

So how many gods are there? How many different ways can you make one god conform to what you (that's "you" in the general sense) want him to be?

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So how many gods are there?

I don't know. And I don't care. To me that simply isn't important.

How many different ways can you make one god conform to what you (that's "you" in the general sense) want him to be?

I don't know. Most bronze age tribes had a god that was basically like they wanted him to be.

Or you can see it the other way around: each god helped its own tribe.

Or you can look at it the monotheistic way: only one of those gods really existed and he looked after his tribe.

I guess the confusing part is that so many people chose one of those bronze age gods as their own and try to make Him what He wasn't originally. And suddenly a god worshipped by small nation of shepherds in Israel becomes this anti-Semitic being that Romans speak for.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Maybe when we become not faithful, G-d allows evil godless people to punish us. And when we are faithful He protects us. It's a common thought.

Sometimes He does do this, but it's more of a discipline of love than a punishment of anger. Like a father does to a child he loves. A good father disciplines his child like it says in Proverbs "spare the rod, spoil the child." The rod of correction is meant to drive the foolishness out of the child. Sometimes God uses, as you said, godless people to do so. He did this in the Assyrians and called them a tool of his discipline aimed at Israel when they were carried away into exile. Later he used the Babylonians to do the same thing to the Southern Kingdom. But not before he repeatedly warned them of this thru the prophets. Jeremiah is called the weeping prophet because he spent his whole life warning God's people of the discipline they were facing if they didn't repent and change their idolatrous ways.

So how many gods are there?

One genuine and many many counterfeits.

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Leauki

I also say that G-d is eternal and that His word is forever.

You believe in a god that isn't the god of Israel. That's fine with me. Judaism does not prescribe what non-Jews must believe. (It doesn't even prescribe what Jews must believe.)

You have your god and I have mine.

But my god is capable of protecting my people despite the fact that there are so few of us and so many of you. Our numbers make us weak but our god makes us strong.

(Scratching my head), your use of the small "g" here seems a bit odd.

LEAUKI POSTS:

You believe in a god that isn't the god of Israel.

Again, small "g" god of Israel ????

I don't believe in a small "g" god or in any small "g" gods.

I believe in the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The dogmatic expression of belief in ONE God is the first part of Moses' call upon Israel to believe and to do things holy in the sight of God. This proclamation which My Lord Jesus Christ called "a commandment" in St.Mark 12:29, is an affirmation of belief that the God of Israel is Adonai, Who is Absolute, Uncaused, One Eternal God to be feared, loved, honored and obeyed, a belief that is entirely in harmony with the Catholic concept of God.

INFIDEL POSTS:

So how many gods are there?

KFC POSTS:

One genuine and many many counterfeits.

This is the best answer.

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The Messias Christ brought peace...spiritual peace. Jewry thinks in the physical and so they entirely miss this.

KFC POSTS:

This is true Lula but the Prince of Peace will eventually bring in physical peace as well. That's what the Jews are waiting for.

KFC,

The Messias the Christ the Savior has already come. Christ the Messias the Savior is not coming again. Been here, done that. The Apostles taught that at the end of the world, Christ comes again in glory to Judge the living and the dead...from there it's off to eternal life or eternal death.

You say, The Prince of Peace (Christ) will eventually bring in physical peace? "Eventually"????

The OT prophets Ezekiel and Isaias prophecied the peace of Christ as well as His Eternal New Covenant of Peace....both have been fulfilled at Christ's First Coming.

St.Luke 2:11-15

11 For, this day, is born to you a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord, in the city of David. 12 And this shall be a sign unto you. You shall find the infant wrapped in swaddling clothes, and laid in a manger. 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly army, praising God, and saying: 14 Glory to God in the highest; and on earth peace to men of good will. 15 And it came to pass, after the angels departed from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another: Let us go over to Bethlehem, and let us see this word that is come to pass, which the Lord hath shewed to us.

The birth of the new-born Child means peace...Jesus is the Prince of Peace. Peace includes all God's saving blessings. It is an effect of the Covenant God made with Isreal renewed in Jesus. Jesus Himself is this Peace...the Jews must accept Jesus.

Peace means reconciliation; perfect joy. The message Jesus preaches is the Gospel of peace...again Jesus Himself is this Paeace. Peace is given to men of good will because God has shown them His favor and they are the objects of His good pleasure and it was Jesus who assures us of this.

The Angels praised the new-born child as Messias-King, Prince of Peace and the Savior. Go to 19:38. The Angels song is related to the people who accomplanied Jesus on His entry into Jerusalem at the beginning of Holy Week. They said, "Blessed by the King who is coming in the name of the Lord. Peace in Heaven and glory on high." We know His entry into Jerusalem where His death and glorification would bring His work of salvation to an end. The peace of Heaven would be communicated to men after that. The peace that began with Jesus' birth was fully completed at His death and glorification.

Christ's peace is the cause and effect of every kind of peace. Any peace on earth not based on this Divine peace would be vain and misleading.

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(Scratching my head), your use of the small "g" here seems a bit odd.

It's English grammar.

Small "god" = a god, whether existing or not, with name unspecified, used for comparisons

Big "G-d" = stands for a name of a specific god

Again, small "g" god of Israel ????

Small "g" is the correct usage when comparing gods.

I don't believe in a small "g" god or in any small "g" gods.

It's impossible to understand the bronze age religion of Judaism without understanding the environment in which it originated. Back then every tribe or city had its own god. Without understanding that, Judaism doesn't make sense.

And everything that you criticise in modern Judaism is ultimately based on that truth. Judaism was and is a tribal religion. Its fundamentals haven't changed. The features of modern Judaism that you claim differentiate it from what you imagine "Old Testament Judaism" was like are really those bronze age features that made Judaism what it is, then and today.

You believe that "Old Testament Judaism" had lots of features of modern Christianity. But the truth is that Christianity and Judaism have different histories. Christianity never had to convince itself that there is only one god. Christianity took that truth from Judaism. And this is why Christians don't understand the competitive environment that Judaism is based on. Christianity is not tribal.

I believe in the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

But you obviously don't care how the religion of Moses works and what environment Abraham and Isaac lived in.

You believe in your own god and you claim it is the god of Abraham.

But unless your god is the god of Israel, your god isn't the god of Abraham.

Unless you see the people of Israel as special, you have no connection with the god of Israel.

You could just as well pray to Melqart, the god of Tyre and claim that Melqart is the only god.

One genuine and many many counterfeits.

This is the best answer.

I think it's an attempt to answer, not a "best" answer.

KFC's answers implies that there was discussion about other gods when she made up her mind. She weighed the options and decided for the real one, dismissing the false gods. The reason, following that answer, for KFC's faith in the god of Israel is that the other gods are false gods. She did not decide FOR G-d, she decided AGAINST false gods. It's like settling.

I prefer my answer, which was

I don't know. And I don't care. To me that simply isn't important.

I pray to the one god of Israel, regardless of whether other gods exist or not. It's a special relationship and, more importantly, it is a relationship.

I know KFC is a family person and that her husband is a great man.

But she does not love him because other men are not real or because she came to the conclusion that there is something wrong with all other men. She loves him because of who he is and regardless of who anybody else is, I am sure.

This is, I think what one's relationship with G-d should be. It's not about settling for the necessary for rational reasons. It's choosing to worship G-d regardless of any rational reasons.

Even if G-d didn't exist or was just one of many gods, I would still worship Him. I wouldn't care. It's about tribal loyalty. It has a strong element of "my tribe, right or wrong". To believe in the god of Israel means to believe in Israel. Otherwise that god could be any god with no differentiator except that some people believe that he is greater than other gods whereas those other gods also have believers who think that their god is greater than other gods.

That's why I don't care about other gods. It has nothing to do with whether they exist or not.

And that is the attitude you will find all over the Hebrew Bible. That's why G-d is described as a "jealous" god. It's not because He is actually "jealous" in the way a human might be, it's because our relationship with Him is like a relationship between individuals. We don't love G-d because the other gods don't exist. That would be logical and require no faith at all.

Lula adopted a god and has no love for his people.

But G-d does.

And if the god of Christianity doesn't have the features of the god of Israel, the god of Christianity could just as well be Zeus.

This is true Lula but the Prince of Peace will eventually bring in physical peace as well. That's what the Jews are waiting for.

Yepp, that's what we are still waiting for.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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And if the god of Christianity doesn't have the features of the god of Israel,

The Hebrew God YHWH of what we call the OT is the same God of the NT. Jesus is God in the flesh.

Jesus told a story (Matt 21:33) about a land owner (God) who planted a vineyard (Jerusalem). After he planted this and hedged it and dug a winepress and a tower (safety) he rented it out to men (Jews) who would care for it. Then he left to a far country (heaven).

When it was time for the fruit to draw near he sent his servants (prophets) to the caretakers that he might receive the fruit of it. The caretakers beat and killed the servants. So the owner again sent more servants (more prophets) more than the first and they did likewise. He finally sent his own son (Jesus) to them saying they will revere my son. But when the caretakers saw the son they said "this is the heir" let us kill him and take his inheritance. So they killed him as well. The end of the story is that the owner would eventually come to the vineyard and the question was put to the Jews, "what will He do?"

The point of the story Jesus was telling them was that the Kingdom of God would be taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles but it's a continuation from the Jewish Scriptures to the Christian NT Scriptures. The whole book is one continuous story. One of the points in the book of Ruth illustrates that God's redeptive plan extends beyond the Jews to also the Gentiles. Think about it...Gentile blood runs thru the Savior's line.

The diff between me and Lula here is I believe God is NOT done with the Jews and He will turn back to them keeping his promises to Abraham and the Nation as the OT Prophets saw. Lula believes it's a done deal and Israel is history. The Jews can come to Christ as individuals (and they have) but God is now centered in Rome instead of Israel which is not a biblical concept in the least and is very very subjective on the RCC's part.

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The diff between me and Lula here is I believe God is NOT done with the Jews and He will turn back to them keeping his promises to Abraham and the Nation as the OT Prophets saw. Lula believes it's a done deal and Israel is history. The Jews can come to Christ as individuals (and they have) but God is now centered in Rome instead of Israel which is not a biblical concept in the least and is very very subjective on the RCC's part.

The difference between you and Lula is that you accepted G-d with His history and added to it and she re-invented Him.

As I said, her god could just as well be Zeus. He doesn't have any of the features of the god of Israel.

While I don't believe in Jesus as a "son" of G-d or even the Messiah, I do recognise the god of Israel in the god that you, KFC, tell me about here.

The name of G-d already gives you a hint. The four letter-word consists of three letters that are special in the Hebrew alphabet. Why would the god we are talking about have a name that only makes special sense in Hebrew, the language of the people of Israel, unless that god is and remains the god of Israel?

(I assume this might be the reason why Muslims don't use the name of G-d. Arabic has four special letters, not just those three.)

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KFC Kickin For Christ

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You say, The Prince of Peace (Christ) will eventually bring in physical peace? "Eventually"????

The OT prophets Ezekiel and Isaias prophecied the peace of Christ as well as His Eternal New Covenant of Peace....both have been fulfilled at Christ's First Coming.

St.Luke 2:11-15

Yes I do say so because that's what scripture says. The peace you're talking about here promised is not given universally to men who possess good will toward God but individually to men who are the recipients of His favor and grace.

We are not living in a world of Peace. Look around you. Turn on the news. Only the Prince of Peace (the Messiah for the Jews) can usher in physical peace for the whole world to enjoy. Here's a sampling:

"They shall build houses and inhabit them and they shall plant vineyards and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for as the days of a tree are the days of my people and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for trouble for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord and their offspring with them.....The wolf and the lamb shall feed together and the lion shall eat straw like a bull and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain says the Lord." Isa 65:21-25

"and it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before me says the Lord." Isa 66:23

"and the Lord shall be king over all the earth in that day shall there be one Lord and his name one...and men shall dwell in it and there shall be NO MORE UTTER DESTRUCTION; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited...and it shall come to pass that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem (not happened yet) shall even go up from year to year to worship the King the Lord of hosts and to keep the feast of tabernacles." Zech 14:9,11,16

This is when he ushers in totally physical peace on earth. This has NOT happened yet. Satan right now is the Prince of the World but not for long. He's been given a long leash but Christ, in his timing, will come back and claim what is now rightfully his. It has nothing to do with his first coming. His first coming brought peace spiritually in the hearts and minds of his elect but has nothing to do with a worldwide physical peace that we will dwell in someday. We are living in the times of the Gentiles so that the promise to Abraham might be fulfilled completely that "all nations will be blessed."

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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And that is the attitude you will find all over the Hebrew Bible. That's why G-d is described as a "jealous" god. It's not because He is actually "jealous" in the way a human might be, it's because our relationship with Him is like a relationship between individuals.

I remember hearing Oprah Winfry say one time that she stopped believing in God when she heard about the scriptures describing him as a jealous God. Why in the world would she worship a jealous deity? She lacked understanding.

When we get jealous, it's because we want what another has. We are jealous OF someone. It's self-motivated. Selfish

When God says He's jealous, it's because He's jealous FOR us. Not of us. He wants the best FOR us. It's other-motivated. Divine.

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(Scratching my head), your use of the small "g" here seems a bit odd.

Leauki posts:

It's English grammar. Small "god" = a god, whether existing or not, with name unspecified, used for comparisons Big "G-d" = stands for a name of a specific god

Small "g" is the correct usage when comparing gods.

OK,..so this is your system. But using your system, you should have capitalized the "G" in "God of Israel" when you wrote:

leauki

I pray to the one god of Israel, regardless of whether other gods exist or not. It's a special relationship and, more importantly, it is a relationship.

?

I always capitalize when referring to the one true God of Judaism and Christianity.

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