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OMG_blackmage
Join Date 06/2009
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Absolute defense Queen

April 16, 2010 12:29:49 AM from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I was wondering has anyone tried to play a queen soey using her defensive abilities and skills? Of course we all have, but has anyone tried simply stacking hp and armor items and 1 vhels helm with her?

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OMG_blackmage
DD-shreddy
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Reply #1 April 16, 2010 7:49:25 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

No, because her mana consumption is too big for the way i tend to want to play her

Queen of Thorns is a whore of the mana variety.  However, I do take BotF when i play queen.

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OMG_blackmage
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Reply #2 April 16, 2010 9:21:19 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting shred_demon,
reply 1
No, because her mana consumption is too big for the way i tend to want to play her.  However, I do take BotF when i play queen.
I took out something I found offensive

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brandon_varn
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Reply #3 April 16, 2010 9:49:34 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting synnworld,
reply 2

Quoting shred_demon, reply 1No, because her mana consumption is too big for the way i tend to want to play her.  However, I do take BotF when i play queen.I took out something I found offensive

 

LoL

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OMG_blackmage
LORD-ORION
Join Date 04/2009
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Reply #4 April 16, 2010 11:09:53 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Yes, when I made the unassailable flower build so long ago. The premise was a micro free build, so I started with survivability. (all 3 of the closed skills) as the original test for the build.

The problem I noticed is that the 10% armor makes little difference when you spend most of your time under shield anyways, and your DPS is abysmally bad so it takes forever to do anything, giving your opponeents plenty of time to react. (hence why the unassilable flower was focused around Shield + Shambler + early DPS minion buffs instead of mulch)

I wonder if it would work now that Shamblers are by default more powerful in that one skill line.

eg: Possible build without taking Shamblers IV (because you know I hate wasting the mana to summon 4 at once)

1) Shamblers
2) Shield
4) Shamblers II + Shield II
5) Mulch I
7) Shamblers III + Shield III
8) Morale 1
10) Shield IV + Mulch II
11) Morale II
12) Morale III
13) Morale IV
14) Morale V
15) Mulch III
16) Morale VI
17+) Whatever

Of course the other problem is how fast you die in a 2on1 regardless of how strong your DG is. This might make her hard to kill only until she gets ganked.

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OMG_blackmage
Passfail
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Reply #5 April 16, 2010 1:09:21 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

This is how i like to play queen 

 

1. schamblers, summon at portal but not again after

2. shield

3. ground spikes

4. ground spikes

5. mulch schambler, only use your schamblers as healing potions now

6. spike wave

7. ground spikes

8. shield

9. shield

10. ground spikes

and so on...

 

what you think? I got a good defence due to shield and mulch and a strong attack aswell.

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OMG_blackmage
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Reply #6 April 16, 2010 1:41:08 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting LORD-ORION,
reply 4
Yes, when I made the unassailable flower build so long ago. The premise was a micro free build, so I started with survivability. (all 3 of the closed skills) as the original test for the build.

The problem I noticed is that the 10% armor makes little difference when you spend most of your time under shield anyways, and your DPS is abysmally bad so it takes forever to do anything, giving your opponeents plenty of time to react. (hence why the unassilable flower was focused around Shield + Shambler + early DPS minion buffs instead of mulch)

I wonder if it would work now that Shamblers are by default more powerful in that one skill line.

eg: Possible build without taking Shamblers IV (because you know I hate wasting the mana to summon 4 at once)

1) Shamblers
2) Shield
4) Shamblers II + Shield II
5) Mulch I
7) Shamblers III + Shield III
8) Morale 1
10) Shield IV + Mulch II
11) Morale II
12) Morale III
13) Morale IV
14) Morale V
15) Mulch III
16) Morale VI
17+) Whatever

Of course the other problem is how fast you die in a 2on1 regardless of how strong your DG is. This might make her hard to kill only until she gets ganked.
Actually I tried your build for a while when I first started playing. I actually could survive 3v 1 in random pugs (Don't ask how...I can't do it anymore in high level games.) Those were th major problems I would run into as of later, and with minion builds.

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OMG_blackmage
LORD-ORION
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Reply #7 April 16, 2010 8:12:21 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting Passfail,
reply 5
This is how i like to play queen 

 

1. schamblers, summon at portal but not again after

2. shield

3. ground spikes

4. ground spikes

5. mulch schambler, only use your schamblers as healing potions now

6. spike wave

7. ground spikes

8. shield

9. shield

10. ground spikes

and so on...

 

what you think? I got a good defence due to shield and mulch and a strong attack aswell.

-Shield is not so good as the game goes on. Mulch will save your life better, costs less and can damage enemies well at level II and III.
-1 point in wave is all you need, as the snare does not increase in duration, at higher levels, and the damage is redicoulously bad for the mana cost.
-Ground Spike is one of the best skills in the game, always max (great fun to use on the enemy citadel)
-Shamblers IV is not required, summon at portal and resummon 2 in the field is better then summon 4 for more mana.
-Minion DPS output scales well with QoT because of Spikes, idol upgrades and morale get quite insane.

QoT gets progressively bad in 1on1 battles around level 13+, she should be taking down towers and creep waves.

You need to be careful with loading up some skills early because mana is a real problem for QoT.

1) Shamblers I
2) Shield I
3) Spike I
4) Shamblers II
5) Mulch I
6) Spike II
7) Shamblers III
8) Spike III
9) Wave I
10) Spike IV
11) Mulch II
12) Morale I 
13) Morale II
14) Morale III
15) Mulch III
Continue with morale and other DPS enhancing shills.

QoT is uber when she teleports into a battle in progress with this build when 1) Shield is on 2) She is Open 3) All minions are out. It's almost always a kill because the spike in a 2on1 can crumble any DG in seconds, and the wave ensures there is no escape. As long as a TP out can be interrupted...

QoT can munch towers faster then anyone with this build, at level 7 she can really make an impact for pushing when she can have 4 shambles in play,

QoT would be a top DG if she had an interrupt. Unfortunately she has no way to stop an enemy from using items or escaping and she gets to fragile later on. So she is terrible at DG combat near the end game (DG is about killing DGs, so this is a serious liability)

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Passfail
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Reply #8 April 17, 2010 6:56:04 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting LORD-ORION,
reply 7



Quoting Passfail,
reply 5
This is how i like to play queen 

 

1. schamblers, summon at portal but not again after

2. shield

3. ground spikes

4. ground spikes

5. mulch schambler, only use your schamblers as healing potions now

6. spike wave

7. ground spikes

8. shield

9. shield

10. ground spikes

and so on...

 

what you think? I got a good defence due to shield and mulch and a strong attack aswell.



-Shield is not so good as the game goes on. Mulch will save your life better, costs less and can damage enemies well at level II and III.
-1 point in wave is all you need, as the snare does not increase in duration, at higher levels, and the damage is redicoulously bad for the mana cost.
-Ground Spike is one of the best skills in the game, always max (great fun to use on the enemy citadel)
-Shamblers IV is not required, summon at portal and resummon 2 in the field is better then summon 4 for more mana.
-Minion DPS output scales well with QoT because of Spikes, idol upgrades and morale get quite insane.

QoT gets progressively bad in 1on1 battles around level 13+, she should be taking down towers and creep waves.

You need to be careful with loading up some skills early because mana is a real problem for QoT.

1) Shamblers I
2) Shield I
3) Spike I
4) Shamblers II
5) Mulch I
6) Spike II
7) Shamblers III
8) Spike III
9) Wave I
10) Spike IV
11) Mulch II
12) Morale I 
13) Morale II
14) Morale III
15) Mulch III
Continue with morale and other DPS enhancing shills.

QoT is uber when she teleports into a battle in progress with this build when 1) Shield is on 2) She is Open 3) All minions are out. It's almost always a kill because the spike in a 2on1 can crumble any DG in seconds, and the wave ensures there is no escape. As long as a TP out can be interrupted...

QoT can munch towers faster then anyone with this build, at level 7 she can really make an impact for pushing when she can have 4 shambles in play,

QoT would be a top DG if she had an interrupt. Unfortunately she has no way to stop an enemy from using items or escaping and she gets to fragile later on. So she is terrible at DG combat near the end game (DG is about killing DGs, so this is a serious liability)

Ok i will try what you suggested whenever i get the chance. There are some things though i do not like with your build just by looking at it. Wave at level 9? Shouldnt that one get picked earlier, as its both a saving and killing move (very mana expensive though)? I also love her goddess of thorns ability, makes me alot harder to kill even in open mode.

Btw you suggest blood for you build right?

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OMG_blackmage
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Reply #9 April 18, 2010 2:51:11 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting LORD-ORION,
reply 7

Quoting Passfail, reply 5This is how i like to play queen 

 

1. schamblers, summon at portal but not again after

2. shield

3. ground spikes

4. ground spikes

5. mulch schambler, only use your schamblers as healing potions now

6. spike wave

7. ground spikes

8. shield

9. shield

10. ground spikes

and so on...

 

what you think? I got a good defence due to shield and mulch and a strong attack aswell.

-Shield is not so good as the game goes on. Mulch will save your life better, costs less and can damage enemies well at level II and III.
-1 point in wave is all you need, as the snare does not increase in duration, at higher levels, and the damage is redicoulously bad for the mana cost.
-Ground Spike is one of the best skills in the game, always max (great fun to use on the enemy citadel)
-Shamblers IV is not required, summon at portal and resummon 2 in the field is better then summon 4 for more mana.
-Minion DPS output scales well with QoT because of Spikes, idol upgrades and morale get quite insane.

QoT gets progressively bad in 1on1 battles around level 13+, she should be taking down towers and creep waves.

You need to be careful with loading up some skills early because mana is a real problem for QoT.

1) Shamblers I
2) Shield I
3) Spike I
4) Shamblers II
5) Mulch I
6) Spike II
7) Shamblers III
8) Spike III
9) Wave I
10) Spike IV
11) Mulch II
12) Morale I 
13) Morale II
14) Morale III
15) Mulch III
Continue with morale and other DPS enhancing shills.

QoT is uber when she teleports into a battle in progress with this build when 1) Shield is on 2) She is Open 3) All minions are out. It's almost always a kill because the spike in a 2on1 can crumble any DG in seconds, and the wave ensures there is no escape. As long as a TP out can be interrupted...

QoT can munch towers faster then anyone with this build, at level 7 she can really make an impact for pushing when she can have 4 shambles in play,

QoT would be a top DG if she had an interrupt. Unfortunately she has no way to stop an enemy from using items or escaping and she gets to fragile later on. So she is terrible at DG combat near the end game (DG is about killing DGs, so this is a serious liability)

 

Must try build now!!!!

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OMG_blackmage
OMG_blackmage
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Reply #10 April 19, 2010 8:42:02 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting LORD-ORION,
reply 7

Quoting Passfail, reply 5This is how i like to play queen 

 

1. schamblers, summon at portal but not again after

2. shield

3. ground spikes

4. ground spikes

5. mulch schambler, only use your schamblers as healing potions now

6. spike wave

7. ground spikes

8. shield

9. shield

10. ground spikes

and so on...

 

what you think? I got a good defence due to shield and mulch and a strong attack aswell.

-Shield is not so good as the game goes on. Mulch will save your life better, costs less and can damage enemies well at level II and III.
-1 point in wave is all you need, as the snare does not increase in duration, at higher levels, and the damage is redicoulously bad for the mana cost.
-Ground Spike is one of the best skills in the game, always max (great fun to use on the enemy citadel)
-Shamblers IV is not required, summon at portal and resummon 2 in the field is better then summon 4 for more mana.
-Minion DPS output scales well with QoT because of Spikes, idol upgrades and morale get quite insane.

QoT gets progressively bad in 1on1 battles around level 13+, she should be taking down towers and creep waves.

You need to be careful with loading up some skills early because mana is a real problem for QoT.

1) Shamblers I
2) Shield I
3) Spike I
4) Shamblers II
5) Mulch I
6) Spike II
7) Shamblers III
8) Spike III
9) Wave I
10) Spike IV
11) Mulch II
12) Morale I 
13) Morale II
14) Morale III
15) Mulch III
Continue with morale and other DPS enhancing shills.

QoT is uber when she teleports into a battle in progress with this build when 1) Shield is on 2) She is Open 3) All minions are out. It's almost always a kill because the spike in a 2on1 can crumble any DG in seconds, and the wave ensures there is no escape. As long as a TP out can be interrupted...

QoT can munch towers faster then anyone with this build, at level 7 she can really make an impact for pushing when she can have 4 shambles in play,

QoT would be a top DG if she had an interrupt. Unfortunately she has no way to stop an enemy from using items or escaping and she gets to fragile later on. So she is terrible at DG combat near the end game (DG is about killing DGs, so this is a serious liability)
I tested this in one game yesterday. It would be a good build if queen base stats were higher I think. Mostly her mana pool.

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OMG_blackmage
Teseer
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Reply #11 April 19, 2010 9:31:19 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Anyone playing Queen in the Tourney? Would love to get a Queenie discussion goin between the people usin' her

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OMG_blackmage
LORD-ORION
Join Date 04/2009
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Reply #12 April 19, 2010 12:46:07 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Everything is just a suggestion, but QoT's dynamics are complicated.

1) She needs to farm as long as possible early to get a level advantage for the end game.
2) She is the strongest DG early game, easily holding her lane for a long time.
3) Mana- We all know using her skills drains a ridiculous amount of mana.
4) A changing gameplay paradigm where defense works best for her early on, but quickly changes to offense.

All of these come together to make things kind of weird when you consider the overall best way to play to her strengths. 1)Lane for a long as possible early on 2) While setting up skills to spike hard and push when you have the mana and level (which is earned by laneing hard, cold and cruel early on) 3) From being the gank master in 2on1s 4) To being completely useless in 1on1 combat, and fragile as hell to focus fire in group combat, so roving and taking down remaining structures and nasty creep waves quickly makes the most sense.

Some specific things to consider
1)a) Wave is mana expensive. Her other skills are mana expensive. Your items are expensive.
1) Ground Spike makes a significant impact on DGs depending on armor. eg: Calculate the difference between a Spike II and a Spike III with and without Nimoth. With and Without the 2 extra Shamblers. You need Spike III and Shamblers III.
2)Mulch is essential to lane for a long time without getting kicked out.
3) Some specific math on the best efficiency (extracted from one of my previous posts)

The bad "Old Way" Queen- 1 exchange

Shield IV- 840
Spike IV- 750
Spike IV- 750
Wave I- 750
Shield IV- 840

3930 mana

The good "New Way" Queen- 1 exchange

Shield I- 400
Spike IV- 750
Spike IV- 750
Wave I- 750
Mulch II- 250
Shield I- 400

3300 mana (less, but really, this is still insane considering this takes about 15 seconds to blow through)

4) Item load out and order to purchase them in (extracted from one of my previous posts)
Queen needs life and mana. Although armor doesn't hurt, you only want to get it from the 2 typical places if you don't want to gimp your build. Nimoth, and later Groffling if the game goes on that long.

Typically items get picked in this order to play QoT, but this is always situational depending on map, money, your opponent's DG + build and how long it takes you to get kicked out of your lane.

Monk + Botf

Unbreakable
Scaled Helm
Banded
Siege
Vlemish or Plenor (depends on map)
Minotaurs
Nimoth
Upgrade scaled helm to Plenor or Vlemish
Upgrade minions

Options depending on the game
Banded -> Gladiator Gloves -> Gloves of Fell-Darkur
Banded -> Hauberk -> Groffling

Explanations
Unbreakable comes before banded and scaled because you need life and mana, and it is more efficent then those 2 items, and you will usually have 2K+ gold before returning to base because QoT is very strong early game
Scaled Helm is important for the mana regen, it is nice if you can get it at the same time as unbreakable. (ie: lane well)
Banded is important for more cheap life
Then you get siege to harass towers while laneing
Then you get your 1st big helm to be able to start using spikes (having siege already in play is usually nice, because the 1st time you pop open and spike, DGs are going to get hurt fast by surprise, so every point of damage counts for a possible kill)
Then you want minotaurs to distract towers when you are spiking, they are nice to get at the same time as your 1st big helm
Then you want Nimoth for life/armor as you begin to push or defend battles that are further distances form safety and high powered damage skills start to fly around.
Then you upgrade your small helm to more mana becase spikes IV + other skills is expensive.
Then you decide if you want to focus on damage output or survivability depending on the game.

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OMG_blackmage
OMG_blackmage
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Reply #13 April 22, 2010 8:26:14 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting Teseer,
reply 11
Anyone playing Queen in the Tourney? Would love to get a Queenie discussion goin between the people usin' her
chances of anyone playing queen are slim to nonme really.

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OMG_blackmage
LORD-ORION
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Reply #14 April 22, 2010 9:13:39 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

If I was in the tourney I would play her, but I came back to the site after registration was closed.

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OMG_blackmage
OMG_blackmage
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Reply #15 April 22, 2010 8:56:26 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

If I didn't have all this bs with the school, I would damn sure be playing her.

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OMG_blackmage
awuffleablehedgie
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Reply #16 April 22, 2010 9:54:53 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

ummm... I will guarantee at least 2 of the top 8 teams are playing Queen. 

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Reply #17 April 23, 2010 10:37:28 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Anyways, the more I play the build, the more I feel her stats or atleast mana pool needs to be boosted; or skill mana cost halved.

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Teseer
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Reply #18 April 24, 2010 11:03:32 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I dunno about halved, but I do think they need a good drop.

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Reply #19 April 24, 2010 11:08:21 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting Teseer,
reply 18
I dunno about halved, but I do think they need a good drop.
halved is perfect really, she will keep going good early game, and will feel a bit less broken late game.

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Teseer
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Reply #20 April 24, 2010 1:28:32 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Something about Ground Spikes being less mana then Fireball would urk me.

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Reply #21 April 24, 2010 2:09:46 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting Teseer,
reply 20
Something about Ground Spikes being less mana then Fireball would urk me.
something about tb having bots really urks me!!!!

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