how much do you like the current champion system?

Nemesis7884

Join Date 06/2010

how much do you like the current champion system?

regarding all the champions running around and the "producer" champions that actually simply serve as ressource/material source....?

i am not really sure about that system...dont like it that much

in the beginning you waste time running around looking for champions that give these bonuses

you try getting as many as possible of them while they are still inexpensive

but you wont use these "ressource" champions to fight anyway...maybe to explore, and then they simply stay in a town without any use...also because they usually have very bad combat ratings...so there si a differentiation between combat champions and ressource champions...

honestly i am no friend of that system...

the ressource champions have no purpose except to get some additional ressources - you acquire them and then they just sit somewhere

there are way too many chamipions running around, especially in the mid/late game when you wont really hire them anyway

the champions are also not distinct at all - very random and boring...i like the mom system much better

- less heroes that are not randomly generated but therefore much more distinct - with unique look, personality and skill - even if some of them also give you ressource bonus - they should all be mainly for combat... i'd rather replace the ressource champions through additional buildings or quests where you can find these things or certain other htings like trade routes or whatever...

what do you think about the current champion system, do you like it?

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i simply think that i like the mom system much betther, altough it is very old...heck i also like it betther then age of wonders or any similar... i want to make a comprehensive list for the devs - did i forget anything?:

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for me these things should change - also including some of your ideas:

- less champions (meaning all the wandering ressource champions)

- all champions should be suitable to fight and not just ressource champions that sit around once acquired, heck they should be primarly for fighting, ressrouces should be way less focus on with champions

- if there are ressource champions they should maybe have a bigger impact and a unique way to give you access to it - e.g. there is one merchant champion that gives you +10% gildar by setting up a traderout etc. - as written in an answer

- they should be integrated in a lively world within their own lives and not just 100's wander around

- they should all be very distinct, funny and rememberable - with unique picture/gear, skills etc.

- there should be much more skills and special attacks for the champions (reference here is again mom, which simply does a damn good job with their champion system)

- All champions should be (at least possibly after lvling up) "stronger" then the best unit you can build - hell these are champions!!

- the lvling system needs to be modified in a way that is more rewarding, maybe also give the lvls name as in mom (that was a lot of fluff for me when my champion became demi god wuahaha), and you should be able to obtain more experience through more quests, random monsters, find more items, prisoners, ressources, spells in lairs etc....

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Quoting Viaschivan,

reply 14

I don't like the current system either. Just ask yourself the following question, what would miss if those champions were not in the game?

At least for my play style that wouldn't change much and I wouldn't miss them. I usually just place them in cities anyway or don't hire at all.

My alternative would be the following get completely rid of champions wandering around. Then get an "adventure" research that enables a quest which you can use to find a bride. Alternatively add other ways like rescue a virgin offered to a dragon to start a dynasty.

I agree they still need polish and some flair but I would definitely miss them. I for one would not want to see them removed but making them more unique and useful would be great.

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Yeah, I think champions need to be more specialized. I think all champions should start out as generic 'adventurers' differentiated only by their attributes and personal traits. These champions should be able to solo against weak monsters and have a bonus to their movement as well as the loot gained from finding goodie huts. As you level up, you can have them become a certain 'class', like 'warrior' for fighting type champions, 'merchants' who would travel around other cities, 'wizards' who can use magic, or they can stay as 'adventurers'. Further leveling up leads to more specialization choices, like generals with bonuses to armies they lead.

Also, rather than just leveling up attributes, I think we should be able to spend points on traits/skills. That's more interesting than just throwing all our points into attributes. It doesn't have to be complex skill trees, for example, a champion general can have +5% morale to army trait and that can be increased with each level up.

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Quoting seanw3,

reply 16

But then what about researchers and merchants? They are only usefull for about 50 turns or until schools are buildable. I would support a percentage bonus supplemented with a +1 to make them useful in the early game and maybe they get special abilities after the high level university and abbey are built.

Exceptional idea. There is no real usefulness for a "Merchant Champion," "Research Champion," etc. to have a FIXED bonus particularly in mid and end game. A percentage bonus is far more attractive. Additionally, to add further character to each of these unique Champions, why not give them further bonuses if they reside in a City that has certain buildings that they "like." For example, one research Champion gives you bonuses if you build a University, a different Champion if you build a Library, a different Champion, if you build a pub, if you remain a small village instead of a sprawling metropolis, etc. etc.

Finally, why not have these Champions give out some of the quests before they might join you. In another thread, some posters were getting a bit tired of the whole INN concept for quests...https://forums.elementalgame.com/384539

this might be another idea to get quests going.

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I agree that NPCs that do noncombat things should be able to improve those capabilities.

I would also like to see, perhaps, valuable quests that require a certain champion to complete. For example, trade negotiations that you can't complete unless you send a Merchant champion there, etc.

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one solution would be also that your ressource champions are also fighters, instead of another fighting skill they just get a ressource skill which does lvl with the hero...this would make more sense then acquiring 10s of champions and makes the one much more valuable... same as mom

a beginning hero gets 3 random skills, wheter 3 fighting skills or 2 fighting (something like caster, armor piercing, poison or whatever) and 1 ressource - the ressource gives you also 2 points in the beginning but does lvl 1 point with every lvl of the champion...

and i would therefore also limit the maximum number of heros you can have (maybe also in relation to the map size, small maps 4 heroes, medium maps 5-6, large 6-8 or so

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Blaze of Glory

Join Date 04/2006

+27

Another point would be you don't need so many in the beginning. Instead they would trickle in. You can't tell me that was the "Great Generation" and after that no one grows up to be a merchant, farmer, adventurer, etc.

Perhaps they could have a hidden loyalty ratings. Imagine invading someone's territory and the other leader bribes your Champion to not attack and switch sides!

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I agree that champions feel a little "gray" right now. They have unique backstories, but the only thing that differentiates them in terms of gameplay are the initial stats (+prestige, +movement, ...).

Champions would be much more interesting if:

They didn't all level via combat. Merchants might level via attachment to caravans (mentioned earlier) or settled in cities with markets (i.e. "running a shop"). Farmers might level after being stationed in a city with a farm/garden/granary for X turns (limit of 1 farmer per city?).
Levelup +stats were specific to specialty. Instead of the existing +combat stats, a farmer who levels up might improve:

Bonus food production.

Bonus building speed for Gardens/Farms/Granaries/...

Reduced upkeep costs (if upkeep is added).

Reduce food costs to build housing (i.e. higher-nutrition food).

(This assumes that a farmer's levelup stats apply only to the city in which he is stationed)

With this system, +combat stats would apply only to adventurer champions.

This removes the ability of merchants/farmers/... to levelup their combat skills, but I think that the existence of combat levelups for all champions is part of what makes them all so "grey" currently.

when magic is added-these units can become more important I believe-

"Potential Champions wander the world. What makes them special? What makes an Adventurer or Loremaster worthy to stand out from the average peasant? The difference is that they have the rare gift of being potential Sorcerers. You can imbue them with some of your essence and then they too can start to contribute to your Kingdom of Magic."

Adding sorcery to every champion won't help to individualize the them unless they get access to spells that are specific to their specialties, e.g.:

Merchant champions learn spells to temporarily(?) boost caravan efficiency or gold inflow or reduce the cost of markets.
A merchant champion with sorcery might be able to specialize to a blacksmith with spells to create/enchant weapons.
3 farmer champions might be able to learn a "joint" spell. Gather all 3 in a city to cast a 30-turn spell that creates a specialty high-end farm/granary tile when finished.
Alternatively, all 3 farmer champions might sacrifice their essences to create the specialty farm tile or permanently boost the city's food production.
Before creating a city, a sovereign might gather champions at the building site and sacrifice them to create the city (instead of sacrificing personal essence). The city might start with bonuses specific to the sacrificed champions.

A simpler version of this is for champions to specialize in a given type of magic. Farmers specialize in green/earth magic, etc.

I'm kind of hoping that all champions don't have access to all magic. While this makes them more flexible, it can fall into the current +stats(combat) trap of making them less interesting.

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Another way to deal with champions would be the MoO2 way: divide them into battle units (some with leadership skills) and adminstrators that run cities.

But I would say less is more with the champions. The fewer they are, the more special they will be.

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I like the tried and true methods of MoM or even HOMM. THey all have skills and traits.

Champions should have not only attributes but also leadership skills, resources skills, attack skills, magic skills, etc.

But not all these skills should be available to all champions. Champions should have their own skills to choose from or are already selected for you. This makes characters in the game very recognizable just by name and makes each character more distinguished.

An easy fix that will carry the RPG element of the game much further

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Just thinking abstractly, here - why not have Pubs and Taverns "generate" the champions? After all, that's where all RPG adventures start, right?

I concur that expansion of the skills and individuality of the champions would make them more valued - right now it really is a matter of looking at combat rating, and that doesn't seem as 'heroic' as champion status would merit. Perhaps traits like "aggressive" or "ruthless" would offer sage bonuses to the Warfare and Adventuring trees, while "prudent" or "scheming" might do the same for Diplomacy and Civ... Send a researcher on violent adventures, gradually she builds up the aggressive trait, allowing you to risk that champion for the chance at customizing her...

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On a whim after reading this post, I decided to try the game by marrying the first champion I was able, and then killing the rest. It was extremely rewarding.

First, I got far more levels than normal after killing off tons of 0 rating champions. Second, I deprived my enemies of these same people. Worked far better than killing random mobs, actually.

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I echo pad152's comment - adventuring and magic are not fleshed out for the public betaers (is that a word?). With the better spelunking / tomb raiding / scavenging techs we might see more points of interest pop up and offer more substantial items than a wooden spear or 1 def shield. An old armory of standard plate would rule - 10 suits that you can use free of resource cost, and once they're assigned to a unit, you're back to the standard method of armoring troops. I'm not sure how the game would handle that, but it would make life easier in this bleak, metal free Beta 2A.

It seems like the early world is full of them. I found after a 300+ round game the world was pretty well cleared out, between myself as Tarth, Capitar, and Altar, we'd bought all the random champions. I imagine some recruiting techs add more opportunity, cause by that stage I had no one to marry my three kids to. With hubby being eaten by one of those swamp lizards, we were a bit limited with our number of champs. An option to spawn random heroes would be nice. As you revive more land, the crazy wizard or the lone swordsman returns to civilization - that sort of thing.

I like the idea of a limited skill tree, especially if we can have a broad set of common skills rather than classes that shoehorn a champ into a stereotype. So for instance, the gladiator lady has awesome fighting skill, but you can throw a spellcaster skill on as you level up. With your kids, you get 1 or 2 skill points to spend upon age of majority. Maybe a split - 1 based on parentage, one the player can choose. With level ups, you could choose more health, a new skill, or a stat, but stats would have to be adjusted to make it worthwhile.

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