Selling tech strategy seems unbalanced

That does appear to be an AI weakness. Play the technology race and then sell tech to the other races for a tribute. That tribute allows you to spend more money on research, thus selling them better techs for more money. Very nice upward spiral. At one point today I had over 100BC a turn coming in via tribute.

You can get over 1000 BC per turn quite easily if you're into researching and trading tech all the time. Minor races are also good source for some tech tribute. Unbalancing? Yes and a tactic which is hard to resist too.

Anyone try this at the "intelligent" level? It works at the "bright" level, but that level is still AI-impaired. "Intelligent" is full-bore AI vs. human with no advantages to either side.

To answer my own question, I started a game at intelligent level, small galaxy, and tried the strategy. Even at this level, it seems to be working like a charm.

I got a crappy starting position in the corner of nowhere, and managed to only get a total of three respectable systems going during the expansion stage. Two civs got nice spots in the center of the galaxy and opened up big developmental leads.

But I started trading and selling tech as soon as I got medical theory, and now right at the end of the expansion period I've got nearly 1500bc in the bank, an income stream of about 200bc from tribute, and I'm about two to five techs ahead of every other civilization. This is only a few years into the game (just discoverd trade). I think that I can continue to build this advantage into an insurmountable lead.

Basically if you think about it, tech dealing adds an incredible advantage for the human player. Say you get medical theory early in the game. You take that to another civ and trade it to them for communication theory and 3bcs for 50 turns. Next you go to another civ and trade them comm theory and medical for propulsion theory and say 6bcs for 50 turns. Then you go to someone else. Say they already have medical theory and weapons theory. You trade them propulsion and communication theory for weapons theory and 6bc for 50 turns. Then you go back and make the rounds again, selling the tech for 50-turn, 5-10bc streams of income when they have nothing to trade. Then you go to the minors and do the same thing. What you end up with is a situation where everyone in the galaxy has the same tech (negating it and therefor giving no one an advantage), but you are getting a 30-50bc stream of income because of it. It's free money. The only one who gains is the human. You invest this stream in 50-60% research, then repeat the process at the next discovery. After a bit you keep the techs you don't want anyone else to have and still be adding 30-50bc streams of income every few turns.

I'll see how this game plays out. I'm sure there's a limit to how much debt the AI players will accept, but still, if a signifcant portion of the AI players' debt streams is going to the human, he's got a huge advantage in the game, and that seems to be the case here.

The easy thing to do would be to create some kind of a house rule to limit tech trading, but it would be nice if the game provided that from within its structure.

I'm not sure what could be done though. Not allowing money and influence to be added to tech deals would help, but you can still get almost every tech that anyone has discovered by just dealing tech alone, so something more has to be done. Perhaps also having the AI players overvalue tech they own would solve the problem? If the AI players valued their own tech a bit too highly, and you couldn't add money or prestige to the deal, it would be much more difficult to wheel and deal tech to get an advantage. You could probably make it work only if you had tremendous advantages diplomatically, but even then it might be hard.

Another thought would be to simply limit the amount of times you can deal tech in a year, or perhaps, create a rule that allows you to trade a tech only once per tech(you could give it away an unlimited number of times though)?

Anyway, this got long. Blah blah blah. I just wanted to add in that this strategy appears to be unbalancing at the "intelligent" level too.

I won the game through cultural victory yesterday (medium map, all AI set to Intelligent). I have mentioned this before in my 'Whats wrong with this AI???' thread. At one point in the game I had a monthly income of 5000bc (zero tax level, 100% gov expenditure). It kept getting bigger and bigger. By the end of the game i had accumulated 105000bc through trading tech only.

However I tried to do the same on large galaxy and my first attempt went like this:

a) I got very few planets at the begining thanks to being squeezed in.

The AI got ahead of me in technology and was less willing to pay a lot of money for what I had.

c) Very quickly my finances went red.

d) Yor and Arceans destroyed me

I am trying another one now again on a big map.

They have to do something to make it EASIER for morale
to stay up with higher taxes I THINK or at least an option.

I also picked up on tech trade as giving too much of an advantage in a game yesterday. My thinking on this is that either a tech is devalued as more races know it (you sell it full price once, 80% second time etc) or there needs to be a cost attached to tech transfer (ie it costs 100 research points to transfer a tech representing your R&D people being tied up explaining it to the buying race)

I think it'll be less of a problem if they fix the unallocated funds being wasted issue. With more money available to the AI and with other routes for Humans to make money, it might make it less imbalanced?

Either that or one of the AI updates will see one of the AI races trying to do the same thing with the Human and other AI players. Tech trading wars!

~SDC~

Civ3 partially fixed this tactic by having the AI trade techs to each other during your turn. So if you sell to one race, they will sell to everyone else before you have a chance to.

A lot of this depends on difficulty level too, below Bright this tactic is supposed to work, as I understand it. From Bright on up it's not supposed to be so simple. If people would share their dif. lvls. when describing the AI that might help a lot, afterall, unlike other games this one HAS an AI that changes HOW it plays as you increase the level.

~SDC~

It looks like a perfect opportunity to be the first person to win the game on the "Genius" level.

/ds

I hope the developers take a close look at what any solution to human tech trading would do to the gameplay. The tech tree right now seems to unfold at a good rate. If the AI responds with the same tactic, the tech tree will unfold much much faster and tech itself might become meaningless (everyone ends up with the same tech if the AI trades it too aggressively). It might be better to look at a number of solutions that would result in limiting tech trading. I know that human tech trading and the attempted solutions were huge issues in Civ III (don't know much of the details though), but I remember players saying that computer-AI tech trading esssentially made it nearly impossible to get a tech lead (once a computer opponent had a tech, it would sell it to all the others, so everyone stayed at basically the same level of technology: tech essentially became a source of cash and the tech race was destroyed in the game), and that the tech tree "emptied" too quickly in games (tech trading greatly accelerates the rate of tech development). I have no idea how they finally resolved the issue (I only played one game when the game first came out), but I hope Stardock would examine solving it in a way that doesn't destroy the great things about the technology system as it stands. I would much rather play with a house rule that says "trade one tech, once a year" than see the game ruined by an attempted quick fix.

Dearmad: The strategy works beautifully at the "intelligent" level too.

Dokorstick: Tech trading might be harder to do at the two levels where the AI gets advantages because the human player is so vulnerable in the opening stages of the game. In order for the strategy to work, you need to survive the opening with a respectable position and you need to get a couple of techs that the AI doesn't have in order to get the trading ball rolling. If the computer advantages at the highest setting make it impossible to get something to trade with the AI, or their tech development rates are so much faster than yours, this strategy might not work at genius and incredible levels. Be interesting to see someone try though.

The thing about this strategy though, is that using it is not all that much fun, IMHO, as it reduces the gameplay to fundamentally a repetetive set of predetermined actions: expand, get a tech, go trade it, get a new tech, go trade it, etc. There are still other things to deal with, and you can still screw up a game, but for the most part this one strategy is so powerful that it makes the rest of the game secondary. I'm getting bored with the intelligent level game I am playing, as I spend half the game playing with the monetary sliders to maximize bc returns on tech trade/sales to others. Gets old quick.

For me, I'll try to grind through my current game to see if anything happens to affect this strategy, but it seems clear from the reports of others that the strategy is tremendously powerful at this level, and I can see nothing that will stop the strategy in my current game. After this game though, I have no desire to keep playing this way. I'll probably impose a limit (maybe once a year?) on the number of times I allow myself to trade tech for cash/tech. I think that will bring gameplay back into its originally intended lines and keep the game fun. I am much more interested in playing a fun game the way it was intended to be played than testing the limits of a loophole in the AI code to see if it might allow you to beat the crap out of the game at its hardest levels. Doing the former is really fun; doing the latter is beta-testing or ego stroking.

We're definitely reading this.

But please bear in mind there is some skepticism on our part. During the beta, there was always some guy who would claim he could beat the AI at any level. But when asked to submit Metaverse scores, they never seemed to manage to win above normal and then only on small galaxies.

No offense, TLA, but until you've submitted some scores to the metaverse, we're going to remain skeptical on this. We'll take a closer look at the concerns here but the AI is specifically designed to allow itself to be somewhat exploited in trade at lower levels.

Remember, it's only on "intelligent" that it is even playing on the same field. So if this is really an exploit, then surely some of youc an start submitting metaverse scores where you're winning on decent sized galaxies with the AI on intelligent or genius.

Heh maybe the metaverse isnt taking his submissions? It isnt taking mine. Not that I have won, or even played a game vs intelligent AI.

Anyway, I do this tactic in my games. I pretty much have to to make ends meet. Without coin coming in from tech sales, I cant tax anywhere near the rate I need to have my spending slider near 100%, because of population/morale issues.

olaf

If it would help, I have a save game that is a win on small galaxy, all bright opponents, but the upload to the Metaverse isn't working for me. I would be happy to email you the game if you like. To get it to a cultural win, you just have to press the "end turn" key a few dozen times. This was my third game, when I just started to refine the strategy, so I don't have the larger streams of income I am getting in my fourth game (small galaxy, all intelligent opponents). I would be happy to email that game as well when it gets further along (or even right now--there is still a lot to notice in the 150+bc income stream and tech edge after only a few years of play, and given a weak starting position). If you think it would help, I would be willing to save an intelligent-level game at various points along the way so you could see the strategy unfold. I am currently in the final stages of writing a master's thesis, though, and have been taking a break this weekend, so my pace will slow down. There may be others that have more time than I do. The intelligent game I have going now would be a good one to look at, though, as I have a crappy starting position but seem to be turning it into a solid one by using the strategy (watch, I'll probably get crushed now!).

I have not tried the strategy in a normal-sized galaxy or larger, so that definitely needs to be tested. It does seem to be working at the small-level ones though. At the larger size levels, I can see how there might be some difficulties in getting the strategy started, as much of it depends on getting in contact with as many civilizations as fast as you possibly can so you can milk a lot of bc-income streams. If you fall behind too far in the initial development while the game unfolds, you'll never get the trading ball rolling, as the key to this strategy involves three things: contacting as many civs as quickly as possible, opening decently, and having enough research going so that you can trade your first few tech discoveries with someone. It very much is a strategy that only comes into play after the opening.

The strategy definitley does not guarantee a win, but the thing that I think is important here is that it becomes the single best strategy to follow after the initial exploration stage ends and the mid-game unfolds. If you've got contact with a majority of the civs and you've got a respectable development, the strategy gives you strong advantages over the computer.

I understand your skepticism, but I think you will find that this strategy is definitely repeatable. I would agree, though, that it needs more testing to see how well it works at other levels. I would encourage anyone who has the time to test it out. Here are the specifics of the strategy as I see it now (used with a small universe, so there may need to be modifications for normal and up. Also, keep in mind that this is very much a strategy that I think can be tweaked, so there are most likely things in here that can be greatly improved upon):

1. Know how to expand well enough in the early stages so as to keep close to the computer civs. The game is brutally good here and there is no substitute for a good opening strategy. The goal is to get to the end of the opening at least close to the computers. Adjust your economy, taxes, and spending to maximize colony ship development (I used an 80-0-20 balance in this last game's early stages), and by all means buy colony ships on credit. Don't worry about the debt too much (don't go nuts either though), as you'll quickly cover this with income streams from tech trades. Again, this figure is a rough one and might need to be modified for a normal galaxy size.

2. Once you get to the point where you think you've got enough colony ships and constructors, change your spending to emphasize research (my current game went something like 35-0-65, but there may be more optimal numbers). As soon as you get your first tech, go trade it for another tech with another computer AI, but be sure to add in the best 50-turn bc stream you can get (I haven't tested this, but it might be helpful to give yourself diplomatic and research bonuses at the game's start). Repeat this strategy with all the opponents you have met, and remember to go to the minors as well: they have a lot of cash. If you run into an opponent without a tech to offer, sell the tech to them for a 50-turn bc income stream. Go back through the cycle to sell the techs you picked up in trades. What should happen is that you'll end up with almost all of the basic techs (don't bother with trying to trade for defense theory though, the computer AI's value this one highly and won't give you a good deal for it), and have a nice simple 10- to 30-bc/turn income stream.

3. Go adjust your income sliders to accomodate the new money. You might be in debt from buying colony ships/constructors at this point, and you can now start to leave more left over to start to head back towards the black. Keep a heavy emphasis on research spending, and research something simple that you can discover quickly. As soon as you get it, go repeat the trading process again. Then adjust the sliders again, and keep repeating the process.

4. Keep exploring the universe to find the other civs, and trade with them immediately once you meet them. Go for tech/tech trades first, tech/cash trades second, but always add in an income-stream element to the tech/tech trades. This might be because I've given myself a starting diplomatic bonus, but it seems that the AIs will almost always add in at least 50-month, 3-bc payments to a tech/tech trade I offer them.

5. As you get more money, start funding social and military spending so that you can develop your planets and star ships, but by all means make sure you are developing tech very quickly. I would think that building research centers early on would be a good idea (once you start spending on social), but I forgot to do this in my current game. What should happen is that you'll quickly end up with a large income stream, which you can devote significant portions of to researching more tech, creating an upwards spiral of income growth. I'm sure there's a limit to this, of course, but it seems that it's high enough to really give you an advantage.

5. Little things to consider. I haven't been trading techs that give opponents diplomatic benefits, unless it's the only way I can keep the trading ball rolling. You want to maximize your diplomatic edge so you can get the best deals in trades. Also, I haven't been trading powerful techs once I get a decent income stream. As the strategy unfolds, you want to develop a tech advantage in addition to a high income stream. Keeping the best tech only for yourself is key to maximizing the advantages of this strategy.

6. I'm just figuring out how to use this strategy most effectively, but what you should end up with is the lead in tech and a large income stream from other civs. Your cash and tech advantage should make all the difference in the world. But what you do with all your money and tech advantage is strictly up to you.

Wow. We have just met the Warren Buffet of GalCiv. It's like I'm listening to my home study business courses or something. Rock on! I'll be definitely rolling this idea into my next game plan. Thanks for a very insightful post, Godzilla.

The plan works like a charm, at least on small galaxy.
After getting wiped out by the Drengin my first game on a large galaxy, I used my new found skills (learned how to focus tech advancement, learned how to colonize early and fast), plus the info from this thread! I am now rolling in money right and left. It snowballs, because the more income per month, you allocate more to research, then get new tech quicker, then sell some more.
But Frogboy has a good point, let's see if someone can do this on large galaxy, intelligent level, with any consistency. Until then, I'm staying with small maps!

LOL

i've been using the tech trade approach to some degree in all my games so far - not to a ridiculous degree, though, mostly because i'm too lazy to constantly trade tech with all the civs.

it's a good strategy, but i'm not sure it's a game breaker, especially on higher AI levels and bigger maps.

cheers

h

I am the Ferengi Federation playing a medium-size galaxy with all normal opponents. I bumped trade and diplomacy and I am a member of the mercantile party. It is February 2187 and I'm in 1st place. My Trade and Diplomacy are both at +50%. I have 5 trade routes. My economy is as follows:

SPENDING: 1034 bc/turn
INCOME: 1047 bc/turn (66 tax; 754 tribute)

My tax rate is 0% and my government spending is 100%. Note that while my tax rate is 0% I still get some tax bc. Secondly, the INCOME data doesn't add up. I guess the rest comes from my trade routes?

Society:

Population: 70.11 Bil
Approval: 68%
Colonies: 19

I trade techs like crazy. The only techs I do not trade are:

- Increase to Diplomacy
- Propulsion
- Offensive military weapons to my closest neighbor (the Altarians)

Because the Altarians keep getting into Hostile, I can afford to give them new techs each time I get them, and then trade with everyone else.

Mucking with the tribute sliders is annoying. I wish it would remember the settings between each time you select tribute. I always choose 50 months as the payment period.

Admittedly, the map layout was in my favor. The Altarians and I are in the middle of the 8x8 grid. The four other races are stuck in the corner (and I mean direct corner) without any habitable planets outside of their 1 or 2 sectors they own. Essentially they are stuck.

My influence just turned an Altarian planet over to my side. Wee!

/ds

P.S. I agree with the previous poster that commented about being unable to submit to the metaverse. I have "submitted" about 4-5 games now from 3 to 130 points and it never has been recorded. The last game I submitted was with the alpha patches (*net*.dll, galciv.exe, and a gfx/ file). Still nothing.

By all means, be skeptical. But I bet once the metaverse is solid for all the players, you'll be dancing to a different tune.

BTW, I realize that I may be able to get away with this on "normal", but I don't think it should be allowed. There's a difference between getting swindled in trading a tech (i.e., they pay you more than it is worth) versus funding your empire.

After I finish this game I'll try it on "intelligent."

/ds

You don't need to "muck with" the tribute request sliders, just click on the NUMBER and enter what you want.

Frankly, I'm also going to have an issue even if this is only an easy exploit on small/tiny galaxies. I bought GalCiv in no small part because it was advertised as having 1-2 hour games with small universes...I don't have the time or patience for gargantuan games. I sort of expect the AI to be able to handle -any- galaxy size with the same amount of skill, given a difficulty level.

~SDC~

On tiny and small galaxies, the land-grab phase is usually over within a few turns. Usually, maybe two or three players will come off looking good, the rest will end up shafted. Given that, it can be tricky to assess the AI's competence on such maps.

If you want a good, short game, try switching off some (or even all but one) of the AI players, and play on a small/tiny map.

~SDC~

Try this with the 1.01A patch.

The 1.01A patch made this strategy completely untenable. It needed some tweaking, but the patch went overboard.

Even on sub-normal, AIs value your tech at basement prices but put a premium on their own. They also seem to trade them around with each other much more frequently now. It makes for a vastly more difficult game. I am in the dark on how to win even on subnormal now, whereas prior to the patch a victory on normal was very possible.

olaf