MOM 2: How would you improve combat?

The combat aspect of the original, though still reasonably fun, could definitely stand some improvement. But aside from improving the graphics, what would you all like to see? Here's some of my thoughts. Please comment and pick apart at your leisure.

Larger: The battles seemed kind of rinkydink and devoid of any serious terrain considerations even back in the day. I don't think action points are necessary and still like the idea of keeping the move/attack concept the same, but anything to make battles feel a little bet less like they take place on a piece of graph paper would be cool. Visible elevation bonuses for cities on mountain and hill squares would be cool too.

Castles: Having multiple levels of castle walls with and defensive fortifications would be neat, especially if players have the option of building small forts on the frontiers to help thwart Barbarian raids and protect their borders. If you were to say, add some kind of a tinkerer race even more technologically advanced than the dwarves, they could have really nasty castles to make up for their otherwise lackluster regular units. A good race for nonmilitant colonizer/city builders. And of course, magical fortifications are always fun too. Perhaps units could garrison towers much like they did in Command & Conquer Red Alert 2. Smashing a tower with a wall crushing unit would do some damage but otherwise mostly just leave the unit exposed.

Enclosure bonuses: I'm against changing the rules TOO much, but units really should gain some serious bonuses for surrounding another unit. I still like the idea of an ultra-elite swordsmen holding off four units of green spearmen singlehandedly but if the spearmen manage to surround the swordsmen it should be much more of a fair fight. This could lead to some good early game spearmen rush tactics and could also make conquering cities with a single super unit a much more challenging affair. So, a bonus for every unit on an enemy unit's face? After all, 10,001 Orcs should be good for something.

Ranged Attacks & Surprise: If I remember correctly, it was always defenders that gained initiative in MOM and that was a pretty nasty advantage if you had slingers, longbowmen, or powerful heroes. I don't think any battle should begin with ranged attackers able to fire on the enemy with such an arbitrary intiative rule unless they have superior movement ability like mounted bowmen. On the other hand, making initiative a new statistic could be cool. If an army makes an excellent intiative roll, they should be able to surprise an enemy and begin the first round of combat with the ability to get freebie arrow attacks in range of the enemy if they choose. Obviously spells/abilities like invisibility and pathfinding should give bonuses to initiative and smaller armies should gain an initiative bonus. Other factors like rank and heroes with a tactician ability could make or break an army's initiative score as well.

Range: Let's face it. Steam Cannons weren't as cool as they should have been. In a new environment with initiative and castle defensive fortifications, they would be fantastic if their range was superior to most typical medieval defensive weaponry. You could simply bombard a castle's defenses and then move in with an army. Likewise with slingers vs. longbowmen. I've got no problem with halflings laying the smackdown the way they did in the original game but even standard bowmen should have at least had the range advantage.

Level dependant abilities: If a race's regular units are going to be lame like the Orcs and not start with standard abilities like Negate First Strike for Halberdiers, they should at least gain this ability when they become elite. This would be a great option for balancing races that aren't as warlike but have other great benefits and could make certain races a lot more interesting if you choose the Warlord option, especially if certain races start off a lot weaker but get superior to most others at ultra elite status.

Increased Army Size: More than nine units would be nice but not too many more. I agreed with another poster who said Age of Wonders 2 battles tended to drag on for way too long. Especially in and around castles. I'd prefer to simulate siege warfare rather than experience it in real time.

Animations: More animated battles would be interesting. For instance, units with large shields turtling when being attacked by ranged weapons would be very cool.
1,094 views 27 replies
Reply #1 Top
Many of the ideas you suggest for enhancing combat are great. They do suggest though (for reasons I brought up in another thread), a certain down-scaling of the overall scope of the game.

I wonder how horrified people would be by the idea of eliminating settlers? After all, at the kind of time scale we're talking about, building a new city from scratch is hardly realistic, and the inability to create new cities makes existing neutral ones much more important, relative to nodes and other adventure sites.

I know it's a bit off-topic, but it's all sort of related... ;)
Reply #2 Top
Eh. It's a forum. Off topic is in its nature.

I'd be against taking settlers out. City building is half the fun for me. I love scoping out the terrain with that surveyor tool and I razed countless towns and cities because the AI put them in a stupid place that made it impossible to build a city on a really good location. It would also make nature magic a much less interesting color since half the fun of that particular spell list was all of its city enhancements and terrain modification spells.

Removing settlers would also make it too much like Warlords, a fine series, but no Master of Magic. Most games I played in the original, I rarely had more than 3 offensive armies so I wouldn't expect to hit 20-30 battles a turn.

One thing I would like to see, however is a more time-consuming but fame friendly "relocate" option simply because you can never trust an AI to put a town in an intelligent place and I hate to be the bad guy... well, sometimes I hate to be the bad guy. MooHaaaHaaa! Get them my undead pretties!
Reply #3 Top
make combat simular to age of wonders, that game so far has the best combat system for a fantasy-strategy game.

I like the tactical battles, anything simular to age of wonders, HOMM, console tactics games (like front mission or tactics ogre) would be great.
Reply #4 Top
LEAVE AS IT IS !

It was PERFECT ! Impoove pictures , videos , animations , sounds , add new units and races , spells , artifacts and abilities but DO NOT change anything else !


~SDC~
Reply #5 Top
Two words: better AI. I love the way the combat works, but a lot of the subtlety is lost because the AI is so inept. This could also make the "auto" button a lot more appealing.
Reply #6 Top
Improve AI. That is foremost, of course.

It isn't a tactical combat game, it is a strategy game with a tactical aspect. I wouldn't want too much to be thrown at you in the battles, as that could really ruin what we love about the game. I found Age of Wonders (even Shadow Magic) to be very bogged down in tactical combat that wasn't very interesting. Usually the combat in MoM would have sufficed to give about the same result in much less time with much more action taken by the character. Sometimes complexity for complexity's sake can be ruinous.

I really hope they end up doing this game, as it is all hypotheticals right now. :(
Reply #7 Top
I would like to make it so that non-ranged units are about as useful as the really good ranged ones like slingers and longbowmen.

I mean, there is no reason to include anything but heroes and ranged units in your army usually.
Reply #10 Top
It no longer emails you to say that I've just replied! :)
Reply #11 Top
Ahhh. Thx. Well, I was going to recommend a classic mode for all those who are skittish about changes. I felt the same way at first too, but would the point of an identical game be? There should at least be some changes.
Reply #12 Top
Changes are good, I'm looking forward to it. But a classic mode would be nice too, so that when I have the urge to play it, I won't have to load up dosbox and play MoM 1 :)
Reply #13 Top
but would the point of an identical game be?
End of quote


Better AI, reduced micromanagement, more options on world size, number of opponents, landmass size, number of neutral cities. An editor that would allow modpacks (someone would be sure to come up with a Lord of the Rings modpack). And did I mention better AI?

And maybe even multiplayer, although I don't think the game is well-suited for it, and would prefer that Stardock spent their energies on other facets of the game.

The more changes Stardock makes from the original, the greater the risk of changing the game into something different and less appealing.
Reply #14 Top
Having a game that runs fast with better ai. About settlers: I think I could kill someone who would make MoM2 without settlers. The villages that try to grow into a city and sometimes fail (it'll teach you for playing dark elves) were great.

I'd rather keep the 9 units limit. Make sure the ai gets out of its walls when attacked by ranged units. Increase the power of shields against regular missiles.

I agree with the proposal of various ranges for different weapons (less for slings, more for longbows).
An opportunity attack when you try to get away from near an opponent could be a good thing too.
And get rid of the 50%chance of losing units when you flee at the highest difficulty levels. It just served to make B'shaan run in circles around slower units for 50 turns, time which could have been better spent elsewhere.
Reply #15 Top
improve ai, diplomacy and graphics in that order. i understood that the focus of the project was to keep the same game as the original but improve certain aspects. perhaps the title MOM2 is misleading as it is more of a new and improved MOM than a true sequel.
Reply #17 Top
luckily u added that last line in, or i would've had to hunt u down and messily kill u ;)
Reply #18 Top
Anybody remember X-Com Apocalypse's RTS mode? Ick. I'll bet that was the publisher's idea. That game could have been so much cooler if they'd let 'em finish it right. Still liked it though.
Reply #19 Top
Either keep combat the same as MoM, or at least allow a "classic combat" mode that keeps the combat the same a MoM. Flanking maneuvers are NOT MoM higher level tactical combat. An elite swordsman should not be penalized for being surrounded by a bunch of green spearmen -- in the "classic combat" mode.

Some people like AoW2 / X-COM detailed combat, some people like Myth/ AoE tactical RTS. I think those styles are not appropriate for MoM -- but that's just me. (I like those styles in their respective games.)

Also, PLEASE have a "Classic MoM 1.31" mode - one WITH the bugs (Air Elemental immune to magical weapons; Cloak of Fear works backwards; Guardian Wind works even after dispelled, et cetera), and one without the bugs. And it'd be nice to load up an user-tweaked units for the game without resorting to hex-editing the executable.

Races should not be overly balanced. Balance is for vanilla cookie cutter games. Some races are yucky, some are capable - c'est la vie.

Don't do to MoM what Star Control III did to Star Control 1 & 2.

--Eljay
(as a hobby, working on-and-off the Macintosh port of MoM, with permission from Microprose many years ago)
Reply #20 Top
Here's what could be done to improve MoM into MoM 2.

Leave the interface the mostly the same.

The City List should be sortable. Should have an indicator for what buildings are built, buildable, eventually buildable, never builable.

From the City View, PgUp/PgDn to go to prev/next city.

Higher resolution graphics. I want to put my 1920x1200 screen to good use. Sweeter animation. More beautiful special effects. Revised soundtrack and sound effects. (Even for "Classic mode".)

Have "MoM Classic" that simulates MoM 1.31.

Have "MoM Classic w/o Bugs" that simulates MoM 1.31 -- but without the various bugs.

For "MoM2 mode" (vs "Classic mode") more races. Maybe water based races: mermen, tritons.

For "MoM2 mode", more planes. Maybe themed planes.

For "MoM2 mode", other size planes besides 60x40.

A "plane scape editor" to make playable scenarios.

A "themed plane scape generator", for users to create customized (yet random) plane scapes.

I think everyone agrees on this one: multiplayer. (Hopefully better than the awful MOO2 multiplayer.)

Keep the 5 themed colors of magic, plus Arcane. More spells would be nice. (But not for "Classic mode".)

Multiplayer idea that may be too tricky for balance: "SimWorld". After you've conquered the world, you can host your world and allow another world (on another computer or multiple other computers) to interact and conquer.

Keep the FUN quotient high, and the FRUSTRATION quotient low.

"Heroes of MoM2" - combine Angband (or ZAngband or ToME) with MoM2 interface, graphics, sound... Mutiplayer. Okay, that's just crazy talk.

Did I mention "Write it in Java" so it can be run on Windows, Solaris, Linux, and OS X? Or C++ if you must.
Reply #21 Top
It scares me when people keep asking for lots of new features and prettier graphics. To me, nothing is as important as good AI. If Stardock were able to produce an MoM2 that had the same graphics as the original, with no new features, but with the bugs fixed and a competent AI, I'd be overjoyed. MoM has great depth in its combat system; it's just not very evident because the AI won't venture out of the shallow end.

2nd most important: all unit, building, spell, and race data built into tables (not as in-line constants). Even if Stardock doesn't produce an editor, dedicated fans would. Then the "MoM classic", etc., would all come with no investment on the part of Stardock.

3rd most important: user interface improvements. Sortable city lists are great, city build queues would be a godsend, etc.

As to multiplayer: sorry, but here's one person that doesn't want it. I don't think TBS games are well-suited to multiplayer, and would rather have the resources spent on (see #1 in my list) better AI. The other problem with multiplayer is that the forums would quickly degenerate into "leet" players insulting one another, crying for their favorite race to be improved, or begging that their nemesis be nerfed. Not to mention countless "balancing" mods.
Reply #23 Top
PherdnutChiken, it wasn't the publisher's idea; check out Laser Squad Nemesis. The only thing that Microprose really did to get involved with the development of X-Com Apoc was effectively telling them to wrap it up before it was finished. But in Microprose's defence they were having financial troubles at the time and couldn't afford to support ongoing development, and the developers themselves admitted (in hindsight) that their plan for X-Com Apoc was far too ambitious to be realistic.

As for MoM. Well, the first thing would be AI, like everyone else has said.

I think perhaps if people want it more 'grand', then maybe instead of controlling individual units the player controls formations or something.

I do want prettier graphics. I'd be somewhat miffed if I didn't see 3D (or at least pseudo-3D of a nice quality) graphics. Aparently GalCiv used 3D graphics (all rended from a questionable and fixed angle though), so it's not beyond the abilities of Stardock to do it, and given combat is still likely to be turnbased, then it's not such a big deal. Sure it doesn't have to be cutting edge, but I'd expect it to be approximately on par with modern games. I suspect we'd all be a little disappointed if we ended up with a mess of pixels. ;)

Yes, I'm not a huge fan of multiplayer either.

In general I'd like to see what markgil and DaveV want too.

I'm also for settlers. One of the best things about MoM was that if you captured, say, a halfling city and you created a settler, you could make another halfling city. That put the settling aspect of MoM above all other games at the time.

Edit: Oh, and in regards to the original post, although all those ideas seem cool, I also feel that they might overly complicate the game for the AI, and trying and failing to implement them might be much worse than deciding to make it simpler.
[Message Edited]
Reply #24 Top
Strategic map AI will be tough, but it seems to me that the tactical map AI could use the same techniques as a chess program (static evaluator, alpha-beta pruning). It's a little more complicated, of course, because the interactions of the pieces in MoM are based on dice rolls instead of being strictly deterministic in chess. And there's the issue of when and how (and whether) to spend your magic reserve. But it would be awfully cool if people hit the "auto" button because the computer could fight the battle better than they could (as opposed to the original MoM, where hitting "auto" was akin to Russian Roulette).
Reply #25 Top
Here come my ideas like a rolling steam train.

First off, the whole multiplayer aspect.
I think it should be included, I mean yes, the games would take forever, but there could be options to quicken it up, like 4x city growth 4x spell research something like that.

However, the ONE option I would love to see in multiplayer is.... I call it the "Tactical Combat Simulator." - me and my cheesy names

Basically, You hook up with a friend over some matchmaking type service. (Up to 4 players for 1 battle , make it interesting).

Anyway, so the game host can choose how many points each player starts with (more on that in a bit), what color(s) they want, and what heroes they get, how much mana to start combat with.

Then basically you get a combat battle with 4 human players! Much faster then city building/troop building etc. (almost like a big chess battle sim!)

Ok, about the point system.

Each unit in MOM would have a point value depending on the overall strength, Magic abilities, ETC.so for example.

A spearman would be worth 1.
Swordsman worth 1.5.
halberders worth 2.

(You can also choose magical creatures too)

Now suppose i created a multiplayer "Tactical Combat Simulation" with 3 other players.

I get to choose my spells on a point based system too.
So if I chose chaos, And my pick my 3 spells, Warp Lightning, Fire Elemental, and Lightning Bolt.

I set it so each player gets 120 mana. So I can cast those until i run out of mana.

Lets say I setup so each player gets 50 points of troops.

So I could choose (BTW, i'm making up the point values as I go along)
1 Great Drake (20 Points)
4 High Men Warlocks (4 points each = 16 points)
2 High Men Paladins (5 points each + [Elite Bonus, extra 1 point per paladin]
1 High Men Priest (2 points each)

equals 50 points. Now my opponents choose some troop arrangements.

Now with the metaverse, Stardock can see (or use a computer) to properly adjust the Point systems. So if they see the being used too much, they can make it more expensive point wise.

Now with 4 way battles, things would just be more intense then compared to 2 way battles (however, this would normally be impossible in the normal game)

Anyway, off the multiplayer for now...

I would like to see a bonus for attacking troops from behind. Maybe like a small +1 offense bonus but something (call it flanking or something)

(wow long post) I don't have all the time in the world so i'll post my other ideas later

Tell me what you guys think!