Sodaiho Sodaiho

Was Jesus just following an existing myth?

Was Jesus just following an existing myth?

staging a messiahship

With palms together,

 

There is an interesting article in the N Y Times today about a stone tablet found amid the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Apparently it suggests that the notion of a suffering messiah who would rise in three days was a common belief in the century prior to the Christian Jesus.

 

The article suggests:

If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.

 

Hmmm. The death and resurrection myth prior to Jesus' birth?  It would seem this adds to the notion advance some decades ago by a Jewish scholar suggesting this whole Jesus script was a scheme to get Jesus recognized as the Messiah, that Jesus was aware of the things that needd to happen before they happened in order to meet the criteria.

 

And later:

 

Mr. Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the messiah of the stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a savior who died and rose after three days was an established concept at the time of Jesus. He notes that in the Gospels, Jesus makes numerous predictions of his suffering and New Testament scholars say such predictions must have been written in by later followers because there was no such idea present in his day.

But there was, he said, and “Gabriel’s Revelation” shows it.

“His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to suffer so his blood will be the sign for redemption to come,” Mr. Knohl said. “This is the sign of the son of Joseph. This is the conscious view of Jesus himself. This gives the Last Supper an absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of people but to bring redemption to Israel.”

 

Strange.

Link

Be well

 

 

 

 

922,482 views 969 replies
Reply #526 Top

Both Hebraic and modern day Judaism, Christianity and Islam (Muhammadism) believe there is one God, yet, they are 3 distinct religions.


This is imprecise.

(I will also call "Islam" "Muhammadism" if you don't mind, to differentiate between followers of Muhammed and earlier followers of other prophets, since in Islam/Muhammadism both are referred to as "Muslims".)

Judaism does not see itself as a religion and does not deny that other cultures might follow the same god and got different instructions from Him.

Zoroastrianism believes in the same god as Judaism and Christianity and believes that it and Judaism are the same religion.

Yazidiism (the native religion of the Kurds before Islam) shares the same belief system with a few modifications that (likely) do not contradict Zoroastrianism or Judaism.

Muhammadism (and I am talking here about its original form before Arab nationalism and the modern heresies) saw itself as a true religion next to Judaism (as per the constitution of Medina, the first Islamic state, and the Quran grants that Judaism, Christianity, and Sabianism (whatever it is) are also true religions and that their adherents can go to heaven.

It should be noted that in Hebrew there are two word for "religion": "amona" (which means something like "belief" or "gospel" and is the source of the word "amen"; and "dat" (which means "law").

Religion in the Biblical sense is not "religion" as we think of it today, but "law". (The Tora is a law book.)

In Biblical times (and in Muhammadism 1000 years later) the understanding was not "different religions" but "different laws". Those who believed in the one G-d, Jews, Muhammadists ("Muslims"), Zoroastrians, Yazidis, later Bahais and Druzim etc., BELIEVE in the same beliefs but FOLLOW different laws.

Christianity was the first of the Abrahamic/Zoroastrian religions that claimed a monopoly on truth; and the Catholic Church established that "truth" in committees. That's why Christians were taught not to read other scripture and to believe lies about other scripture, because a truth created by committee is fragile. (If the churches were sure about their truth, they would encourage their followers to read everything else, not actively discourage them or forbid it.)

Reply #527 Top
Forgot this part:


One has only to look at the current state of females in Muslim countries to know that they have nowhere near the equality that those in Christian nations do Leauki.


The current state in "Muslim" countries does not represent Islam but a cultural decline that happened hundreds of years after Muhammed.

Muslim-majority countries within the influence of Europe's advanced culture (Bosnia, Albania, Kosovo) do not feature the same symptoms.

Muslim-majority countries that are closer to Europe, culturally, or closer to traditional Islam, like Turkey, Jordan, and Morocco also do not show the symptoms as much as heretical (by Muslim standards) countries like "Saudi" Arabia or Taliban-led Afghanistan.

The current culture in those countries you are referring to is not Islam, not "Islam" as was taught by Muhammed and early Muslim rulers. (Do you think that most of these "Muslim" countries give a hoot about the Quran actually stating that Israel was given to the Jews to live in?)

Incidentally, ALL the countries where women have little or no rights teach Creationism in schools as well as those other "Christian" values you so adamantly defend! They oppose abortion, contraception, sex education, sex outside marriage, sex with multiple partners (for women), and the secular state. (Try to name one "Christian value" that you want to be taught in American schools that is not already taught in schools in Saudi Arabia.)

The status of women in Europe has become better over the centuries, starting with a Christian society where women had little rights. In the middle east, outside Israel, the status of women has become worse over the centuries, starting with an Islamic society where women had rights they later lost. That's the difference.

Reply #528 Top
St. Matthew Chapter6 verse 5-6

PRAYER

"Again, when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites, who love to pray standing in the synagogues and at the street corners, in order that they may be seen by men. Amen I say to you, they have received their reward. But when thou prayest, go into thy room, and closing thy door, pray to thy Father in secret, and thy Father, who sees in secret, will reward thee."

And christians think that Jesus intended a new "church" and a new religion? For is this not what you do? Stand in church and pray so that you all may be seen by one another?
Reply #529 Top
Sarah, Miriam, Devorah, Hannah (mother of the prophet Samuel), Abigail (a wife of King David), Huldah (from the time of Jeremiah), and Esther.


Sarah was NOT a prophet. She was the wife of Abraham. If she were a prophet she didn't do very well with the whole Hagar thing did she? Show me in scripture where it says she was a prophet.

I admit Hannah was regarded as a prophetess but not sure why because it doesn't say that in scripture that I'm aware of. Can you show me?

Abigail was NOT a prophet. She was married to King David. Show me in scripture where she was considered a prophet.

Esther was NOT a prophet. I studied Esther at length. She was a beauty queen in the right place at the right time. She was NOT a prophet. The only remotest prophesying (if you call it that) was when she delivered news from her uncle to the KIng. Show me in scrpture where she was considered a prophet.

Huldah WAS a prophetess. Agree

Deborah was NOT a prophet. She was considered a judge and a leader but can you show me in scripture where she was called a prophet?

So how do these few womae you named compare to Daniel, Ezekeil, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Micah, Nahum, Zechariah, Malachi, Amos, Joel etc?
Reply #530 Top
No, they didn't. The messiah is referred to as "he" simply because Hebrew has only two genders and the masculine gender is used whenever the word is masculine or undetermined.


so when God gave the first indication he was sending a Messiah in Gen 3:15 he was indicating this Messiah COULD BE a woman?

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and hers; HE will crush your head and you will strike HIS heal."

I believe Eve thought (by her reaction) that Cain was just this Savior when she declared that she did indeed produce a man child.

How about the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac? Was that just an unattached story having no bearing on the upcoming Messiah?

How about Moses saying there will be a prophet that is greater than he and you will listen to him?

How about all the Pharisees and Jews of the NT who question both Jesus and John the Baptist asking if they were the Messiah?

How about the cruel prediction of crucifixion in both Isaiah and Psalms of this Messiah? Would they have done that with a woman?

How about Zechariah who said that the Messiah would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey written hundreds of years before? Do you know what that symbolized?

No, it's quite clear the OT prophecies pointed to a man Messiah. Can't help that some believed it would be a woman. In fact Leauki this is the first I've ever heard of this.

Reply #531 Top
Forgot one....Miriam.

She was known as "the prophetess." So agree with that one Leaki. But she overstepped her bounds when she criticized Moses (her brother) and was striken with leprosy.
Reply #532 Top

Sarah was NOT a prophet. She was the wife of Abraham. If she were a prophet she didn't do very well with the whole Hagar thing did she? Show me in scripture where it says she was a prophet.


Of course she was a prophet.

http://www.jewfaq.org/prophet.htm

Prophets are not perfect. But Sarah was and is regarded as a prophet in Judaism.


I admit Hannah was regarded as a prophetess but not sure why because it doesn't say that in scripture that I'm aware of. Can you show me?


Don't know off-hand.



Abigail was NOT a prophet. She was married to King David. Show me in scripture where she was considered a prophet.


The Talmud lists seven female prophets among Israek:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_List_of_Prophets.html

You forget that Judaism has the Tanakh and the Oral Tora (which was later codified in the Talmud). It doesn't have to be in the Bible to be part of Judaism.


Esther was NOT a prophet. I studied Esther at length. She was a beauty queen in the right place at the right time. She was NOT a prophet. The only remotest prophesying (if you call it that) was when she delivered news from her uncle to the King. Show me in scrpture where she was considered a prophet.


Not sure we use the same definition of "prophet". See below regarding Dvora:



Huldah WAS a prophetess. Agree


Ok.


Deborah was NOT a prophet. She was considered a judge and a leader but can you show me in scripture where she was called a prophet?


Judges 4:4

"V'Deborah asha nevi'a ashat lapidot hi shafeta et yisra'el ba3at haHi"

"And Deborah woman prophetess woman (wife) of lapidot (Gen.) she judged Israel (Acc.) at time that one (i.e. at that time)."

I looked up Miriam and she is also called a prophetess ("nevi'a"). Don't know about the others. Don't want to track down all the text now.

Incidentally, I didn't know the word "3at" (Ayin Tav) for "time". According to my dictionary it means "time", "age", "era". I did know the word "3atiq" for "ancient", however. (This is where English "antique" ultimately comes from, I think.) Learned something new. The normal word for "time" is "zman" as in "Ani lomed kol-haZman" ("I am learning all the time").



So how do these few women you named compare to Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Micah, Nahum, Zechariah, Malachi, Amos, Joel etc?


Very well. They are highly regarded in Judaism (and Islam) and, in contrast to the male prophets few jokes are told about them.

I do not know if all the male prophets were referred to as "nevi'" in scripture. Those that appear in "nevi'im" ("prophets") are presumably all prophets, but that includes some of the women.
Reply #533 Top
Judges 4:4

"V'Deborah asha nevi'a ashat lapidot hi shafeta et yisra'el ba3at haHi"

"And Deborah woman prophetess woman (wife) of lapidot (Gen.) she judged Israel (Acc.) at time that one (i.e. at that time)."


ok, concede this one. So she was a leader, judge and prophetess.

Prophets are not perfect. But Sarah was and is regarded as a prophet in Judaism.


Why is she considered a prophet? What did she prophesy? I still say no to Sarah unless you can show me in scripture. I looked at your site. I agree with the definitions but didn't agree with the exlusion of Daniel. I believe one of my gifts is prophecy as well but not in the foreseeing of the future. There are two definitions (as mentioned in Judaism 101) of Prophet.

You forget that Judaism has the Tanakh and the Oral Tora (which was later codified in the Talmud). It doesn't have to be in the Bible to be part of Judaism.


I understand but what I'm saying is I don't go by outside sources for truth (opinion is another matter)when it comes to religious side books. They all have them. Every single religion has these books and I don't honor them like I do the Jewish scriptures. So while you may be right that there are a few prophetesses in scripture I think they were the exception not the norm when you look at scripture as a whole.

Learned something new. The normal word for "time" is "zman" as in "Ani lomed kol-haZman" ("I am learning all the time").


hahahah I think when you and I get together we both learn wouldn't you say?
Reply #534 Top

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and hers; HE will crush your head and you will strike HIS heal."


I am not going to look that up now, but as I said, Hebrew doesn't have a neutral gender and uses the grammatically masculine gender for "male" and "indetermined".


I believe Eve thought (by her reaction) that Cain was just this Savior when she declared that she did indeed produce a man child.


I don't know what Eve thought or whether she even existed as described.


How about the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac? Was that just an unattached story having no bearing on the upcoming Messiah?


Why would it have a bearing on the upcoming Messiah?


How about Moses saying there will be a prophet that is greater than he and you will listen to him?


I can find Moses saying that another prophet will come. (Deuteronomy 18:15) But I cannot find a word meaning "great" or "greater" in the sentence. Which statement are you referring to?



How about all the Pharisees and Jews of the NT who question both Jesus and John the Baptist asking if they were the Messiah?


I have no idea what they were thinking.


How about the cruel prediction of crucifixion in both Isaiah and Psalms of this Messiah? Would they have done that with a woman?


I don't know how Roman law worked regarding the death penalty for women rebels and fugitive slaves.

I also don't know where the crucifixion is predicted in Isaiah or the Psalms. (Don't know the Hebrew or Aramaic word for "crucifixion" either.)



How about Zechariah who said that the Messiah would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey written hundreds of years before? Do you know what that symbolized?


I _believe_ it symbolises that the Messiah could be of seemingle humble origins... Could also mean that he is rich enough to own a donkey. Could be a metaphor for anything, really. Ask a rabbi.


No, it's quite clear the OT prophecies pointed to a man Messiah. Can't help that some believed it would be a woman. In fact Leauki this is the first I've ever heard of this.


I do not believe that it will be a woman. I am saying that nothing says that it will be, specifically, a man. A woman can be a great king (and the masculine form of the word would be used in Hebrew) and there is no requirement that would require it to be a man.

Reply #535 Top

hahahah I think when you and I get together we both learn wouldn't you say?


Why do you think I translate Bible verses as a hobby for a Web forum discussion? :-)

I am not trying to convert anyone.

I do it because it forces me to learn.
Reply #536 Top
So why then did it take the Christian world so many centuries to allow women to own property, whereas Jewish and Islamic jurisdictions introduced that degree of equality before the law a long time ago?


Note: Numbers 26-27 shows women possessing land for their father's inheritance. The daughters of Zelophehad.
Reply #537 Top

Why is she [Sarah] considered a prophet? What did she prophesy? I still say no to Sarah unless you can show me in scripture.


I don't know why she is considered a prophet. The Talmud considers her a prophet and haven't read the Talmud (I am not so interested in texts younger than 2000 years).

Whether you consider Sarah a prophet or not is quite immaterial, except as an indicator for Christian attitudes towards women. The point here was about the status of women in Judaism.

And with or without good reason, Judaism considers Sarah (and six or so other women) prophets, while you, a Christian, consider even fewer women as prophets.

Maybe Jews misread the Tora about Sarah's status and elevated her to prophet level without need.
Reply #538 Top

So while you may be right that there are a few prophetesses in scripture


Jews also believe that there were thousands of prophets all over the world, the Bible merely mentions those sent to the Jews.

Reply #539 Top
"And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and hers; HE will crush your head and you will strike HIS heal."


This was not a statement of the coming of a Messiah. It was a statement concerning the punishment of the "serpent" that tempted man and woman due to their own sense of self importance.

Quote the entire passage not part.

"And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth. Upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. I will put enmities between thee and the woman and thy seed and her seed; she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel."
Reply #540 Top
I do it because it forces me to learn.




If this be the truth Leauki, why do you worry so about being "shown up" and having your authority being questioned?
Reply #541 Top
Why would it have a bearing on the upcoming Messiah?


The record of Abraham's obedience to God in offering his son Isaac clearly prefigures the offering of God's own son Jesus to be the ultimate sacrifice for humanity. I love the exchange between Isaac and Abraham:

"Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"
"Yes my son?" Abraham replied
"The fire and the wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the offering?"
Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering my son."

Abraham calked the place "The Lord Will Provide."

also don't know where the crucifixion is predicted in Isaiah or the Psalms. (Don't know the Hebrew or Aramaic word for "crucifixion" either.)


the word wasn't there but the desciption was. Psalm 22 and 69 and Isaiah 53 although this passage has more to do with a description of the day's activities rather than the details of a crucifixion. There's more but I'd have to go on a hunt for them.

I _believe_ it symbolises that the Messiah could be of seemingle humble origins... Could also mean that he is rich enough to own a donkey. Could be a metaphor for anything, really. Ask a rabbi.


Over 500 years before the birth of Christ Zechariah saw this vision of the Messiah riding royally into Jerusalem on a donkey (and he was male) just as David and his sons had ridden centuries before. This prophecy completely came true when Christ came into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday proving He was Israel's Messiah. So it stands for royalty.

Jesus owned nothing. He was completly selfless. He owned no house, no propety, no money, nothing. He came into Jerusalem on a borrowed donkey and ate in a borrowed upper room and was buried in a borrowed tomb. So this was quite telling his riding into Jerusalem like a king.



Reply #542 Top

Goodness, such a rich discussion in my absence. Thank you all.

 

I do not know how to separate women's roles from discriminatory practices. I see Paul saying women should not be leaders, that they should remain silent (and let the men do the talking) and I read women such as Lula and KFC defending this as non-sexist.  Oy. I think if women's roles are relegated to the kitchen and family by the church fathers that this points to a view of women by that church that is less than equal.

See ya.

Reply #543 Top

Over 500 years before the birth of Christ Zechariah saw this vision of the Messiah riding royally into Jerusalem on a donkey (and he was male) just as David and his sons had ridden centuries before. This prophecy completely came true when Christ came into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday proving He was Israel's Messiah. So it stands for royalty.

 

Excuse me, but just what else might this messiah be riding?

Reply #544 Top
Still no answer KFC? Your silence speaks volumes. more than you realize. Apparently you don't have any answers, and I am not in the least surprised by this.
Reply #545 Top

If this be the truth Leauki, why do you worry so about being "shown up" and having your authority being questioned?


I am not worried about that.

I told you that I do not think of you as someone who "questions my authority" or who can "show me up". You simply don't have it in you.

You didn't impress anyone. Get over it!

You told a lie, whined a bit when I found you out, and since then have developed some sort of obsession with me. Why don't you go study and see if you can learn enough to "question my authority" in the future? Should be easy. I am not a religious scholar and my profession has nothing to do with linguistics. If you were half the scholar/philosopher/prophet/messenger you want to be you can beat me. Good luck!

If you ever make it, I will be happy to rise to the challenge and learn even more. That's how "worried" I am about you.

But for the moment I find KFC's knowledge of the Bible and arguments a far more interesting challenge; not because she is an easier target than you (she is not; you are not even a target), but because having to read and translate ancient texts to "win" an argument _is_ a challenge, at least for someone of my level of expertise.

Talking to you, unfortunately, is not a challenge. You bring up no new arguments and present your beliefs with an arrogance that, in my opinion, would require FAR more research to be justified in any shape or form.

Reply #546 Top

Excuse me, but just what else might this messiah be riding?


A cigar.

Think about it!
Reply #547 Top

Still no answer KFC?


If only the messenger could get all those people he convinces of his wisdom to acknowledge even his existence...

Reply #548 Top

The record of Abraham's obedience to God in offering his son Isaac clearly prefigures the offering of God's own son Jesus to be the ultimate sacrifice for humanity. I love the exchange between Isaac and Abraham:

"Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"
"Yes my son?" Abraham replied
"The fire and the wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the offering?"
Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering my son."


That's a bit far-fetched.

Following your analogy, G-d would have another prominent son born of another woman a few years earlier.
Reply #549 Top
Asking you a question is not whining, (nor did I lie, as you put it) it is simply asking you a question based on what you said earlier to me. I'm not out to impress anyone, what I do doesn't rely on anyone being impressed or not, my reward if any, will not come from any human being. For someone who is not a religous scholar, you seem to cling to your authority with all your might. Why would anyone be a target to begin with? Is that your purpose, to find a target? Whether or not I am your or anyone's target is also only important to you or them. Your assumption that I am arrogant is all in your mind, it exists only because your self importance is being threatened.

If only the messenger could get all those people he convinces of his wisdom to acknowledge even his existence...


I don't care if you acknowledge me or not, not you not anyone, and it's not my wisdom, no man is wise, wisdom comes from THE I AM. If I did care about being acknowledged I wouldn't be here. The question was not intended to elicit an answer from you. You never answer any question that you can't answer, that is quite obvious. The only time you respond at all is when you feel your authority and self importance are threatened. You and Leauki are twins in that respect. It was intended to measure your self importance by goading it, and you passed with flying colors both of you.
Reply #550 Top
That's a bit far-fetched.


well as far as I know I thought everyone took this for granted as it's been believed and thought this way for thousands of years. I mean I understand why you wouldn't believe this to be true coming from a Jewish perspective and not holding to the fact that Jesus fulfilled these, what Christians believe to be, prophetic scriptures. So if I'm far fetched I'm in good company.

Following your analogy, G-d would have another prominent son born of another woman a few years earlier.


no, this just proves that Abraham messed up. It wasn't supposed to be that way. God told him to wait for a son but he and his wife were impatient. He wasn't perfect you know.... ;) 

Many of the OT saints were imperfect types of Christ. I went into this already...remember when I said Joseph was probably what most believe the best picture of Christ out of all of them? He was as close to being perfect as any of them. My husband and I are currently watching (2 part story) the story of Joseph after having studied him at length.

If only the messenger could get all those people he convinces of his wisdom to acknowledge even his existence...


exactly. Nightshades I'm doing my best to ignore you remember? I told you I find it useless talking to you. I actually think you are border line insane if you really want the truth.

Excuse me, but just what else might this messiah be riding?


probably what he'd been riding up until that point of time...nothing. His feet carried him everywhere he wanted to go up until that point. Not unusual.

When Jesus began to ride into the city the multitude spread their garments in the road. It was an ancient custom for citizens to throw their garments in the road for their monrch to ride over basically saying "we place ouselves at your feet even to walk over if necessary."

I see Paul saying women should not be leaders, that they should remain silent (and let the men do the talking)


the part where it says to be silent was on the order of tongues. It's a matter of context. There were many women who were allowed to speak up. The basic point in all of this was that the women were not to usurp the men's positions sanctioned by God. We see woman prophets, evangelists,teachers and even one leader (under a man's headship tho) and judge in Deborah. When there are NO men to lead then that is another matter as in the case of Deborah. She had to lead Israel in battle because Barak was too coward to do so.