The races: Humans, Drengin, Drengin, Drengin, and Drengin

Well, as someone who has played dozens of Intelligent games, the Drengin are only factors in about 10% of the games beyond the beginning. Their strategy is so paper thin that without a really good start position, they quickly trash their economy with the rapid military build up and one bad war destroys them permanently as a threat.

On Intelligent and above you have far, far more to fear from the Arceans and Altarians, and sometimes even the Torians (the Yor fall apart like the Drengin in almost all the games).

feel fortunate you are even at intelligent. many of us are still sloggin thru the easier levels.

I've noticed that the Dregs were almost always the dom race when I was playing below Normal. At Normal, it's generally the goody goodies teamed up against me. Only with good start positions are the Dregs ever a power.

My latest evil experiment: making all AI players bright, keeping Drengin pure evil, and making the other 4 all chaotic evil. It is still early game, and the initial land grab is over and everyone is basically digging in and shaking down the weaker neighbors. The result so far? Drengin are in last at the moment while the Altarians are the big dogs. I am second, the Torians are a distant third and the Yor close behind them at 4th.

This is not going to say anything definitive yet, but one can read something out of this already. The Altarians in my game are going to start a ton of wars if their shake down attempts start failing too often. By the time most of the players in the game reach the BB and dread age, those normally two good races are going to own more real estate than before unless I intervene and have some early land redistribution deals going (i.e. pre-emptive territory wars to take some buffer space from them for myself).

Back to the Drengin overall. Pushovers. Arm their enemy with something decent or intervene personally to mess them up a little bit by mid game and they can be controlled. Only if their extortion is left unchallenged could they ever be a problem after mid game in my experience. Sure, they get the bribes and the firepower quickly, but that is strength built upon shifting sands of instability that can be diverted without much effort.

The Dregnin can be successful. Their strategy relies on them being able to exploit their early tech and military lead to grab a large section of the galaxy. Sometimes they manage it.

I haven't seen the Yor be successful in ages. Im playing with them and the Torians set to bright, and everyone else set on normal. I can't even think of what their strengths and weaknesses are. About all that comes to mind is that they are very weak in the early game expansion stage... and are never much of a threat after that.

I've only had one game where the Yor were a threat. They started in an isolated corner and were able to leverage this to become the dominant military and economic power. Ironically this isolation worked against them in the end and meant they had a hellish time prosecuting wars. The Drengin were the number two power, but got chewed up between the Yor, Altarians and me.

But getting back to the Drengin - I'd agree they tend to dominate at the lower settings.

Drengins don't just dominate lower settings, they also dominate smaller maps.
Yors are the weakest of all civs as far as I can say. They have been powerful maybe once in scores of games.
I play a lot tiny masochistic, and the Drengins can bully everyone fast there, so they always have a huge tech lead, which means they are quite powerful mid-game. But then if they lose one war, here come Altarians and Arceans...

Alterians and Arceans always dominate my games at Normal. Drengin usually aren't a factor. They might be in my current game but I haven't met them yet, only heard "rumors".

Drengin definately are dominate on lower then Normal. I haven't gotten above Normal yet so I can't say about higher levels.

And yes, the Yor are always nothing in my games. Stuck with 2 systems somewhere. Only once did they dominate a game (which I lost by the way).

I played (and won!:) ) my first all bright AI game yesterday. The Drengin were doing pretty good and then managed to culture the acereans to death and beat on the altarians untill they surrendered to me (with only one planet left), this gave them a huge population and economy to go with their huge navy. Then me, them and the Yor had a huge arms race (which left the torians eatting our dust)with the drengins being ahead most of the time. Eventually I won by tech, having not fought a single war in the whole game, although I did help out whoever was losing in the Yor/Drengin conflicts.

From Normal to Intelligent I never worry about the Drengin unless they have a fantastic starting position. The Altarian-Torian lovefest alliance is what I always end up focusing my concerns on (I play evil).

Try playing with all the computers set to intelligent on a medium sized map. It should be the same on anybody else's computer, and I suspect that you guys are getting different results because you are playing on bigger maps. If somebody wants, I would be happy to save the next ten or so games at the points I give up at and post them on the web... you'll see the exact same pattern in every game. The charts even look almost identical each time. The Drengin beat every other race out on every chart every time. Or if there's an experienced player out there who thinks he can figure out what's going on by looking at one saved game and is willing to take the time, I can post up just one.

-Drake

~SDC~

"Try playing with all the computers set to intelligent on a medium sized map. It should be the same on anybody else's computer... if there's an experienced player out there who thinks he can figure out what's going on by looking at one saved game and is willing to take the time, I can post up just one."


The catch is that the Drengin's consistent success with you is dependent on your (*cough* lack of *cough*) playing style. On a medium or smaller map at Intelligent it is usually easy to out tech and out military the Drengin -> smaller maps mean it's easier to gain a huge advantage in systems - the AI may know where the yellow stars are, but it doesn't mean much when you know *how* to expand. Gain an advantage in systems and use that to gain an advantage in military strength and tech. Even if you don't out race them on tech and military strength, more systems defended well and knowing when to give into to extortion, when to sell/give ships to whoever the Drengin are pounding on, etc. is what changes things. Like I said earlier, one or two lost wars for the Drengin usually ruin them for the entire game, and more importantly, even if they aren't ruined, a draw early on will guarantee they stay in second place.

The Drengin are the dumb bully on the school ground and you have to play them as such because they have identical strengths and weaknesses to such a bully.

Also keep in mind the political angle. Don't let the drengin (or any major AI power) pick off the others one by one: if they want to fight, make sure they are fighting a -lot-. If the Drengin are fighting the Altarians alone, bribe the Arceans and Torians to join in on the Altarians side. Build ships and sell them to the weaker AIs. Do what it takes to make sure no AI civ gets so big that it attains critical momentum and starts to become a threat to you.

Okay, maybe what I need is a general guide on how to play. Blow by blow, what you do, in what order, what you research, what you trade for, and so on. I keep trying but I am always lagging and get my butt kicked, and I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. As far as gaining an advantage in systems, yes, that is no problem. Especially as against the Drengin, who do not appear to be very agressive colonizers. I am consistently the player with the most systems, but it doesn't seem to make any real kind of difference.

Take the last game. I had ten systems to the Drengin's four. I had an unusually successful population growth too, with about double the population of the next player (the Drengin, naturally). Yet the computer players are still beating me out. How can I possibly be screwing up this badly? Where is all that magical economy coming from for the computer players? I tried trading technologies to the computers, and this boosted my economy some... maybe enough to make it worth giving the techs away, maybe not. But when I went to trade with the Drengin I saw that they had a treasury of 2400, and this is at the point where everybody has corvette and defender (deflectors) technology but not battleaxe (shields) technology.

So I would really like it if an experienced player could give me the blow by blow on how to play the game. Alternatively, specific criticism (as opposed to generalized caustic remarks) might be helpful. Here is basically what I'm doing:

1. Set sliders to 100% spending, 100% military, max tax rate without morale going below 100%. Sol builds colony ships, Freedom to Innovate makes colony which produces scouts. Expand. Depending on direciton of expansion and lay of systems, new colonies either build colony ships or constructors. Once the first colony (from the Freedom) has got 2 or 3 scouts going around, it switches to constructors. Continue until maximum extent reached, then fill in planets not already taken in systems already claimed. Colonization phase done. I typically have from 7 to 12 systems on a medium map.

2. By this point scouts have located from 2 to 5 resources. Leave sliders where they're at until I have build enough constructors to claim each that I think I can beat the computer to. Send them off toward the resources.

3. Switch sliders to 50% social, 50% tech, and lower spend rate to break even once treasury gets to zero (or if it is already in the red from the previous two phases). Research basic stuff and get planets rocking. Research order goes something like: Comm., Translator, Trade, Medical, 0G Research, Bas. Env. Cont., Propulsion, Cold Fusion, Industrial, Bas. Refining, Impulse Drive. Build order switches as things are developed, but once the techs just listed are done it goes Soil Enr., Habit. Improve, Banking, Entertainment Net., Lab, Fusion, Mfg. Cent. Somewhere in the mix I try to get a couple freighters up, perhaps by switching planets which already have some dumped into constructors to freighters and tweaking the sliders until I can crank two out.

After this is irrelevant. By this point I have already fallen far enough behind that I am going to lose for sure. Looking over what I just typed, I can see a couple things I might do a little better, like maybe getting the freighters up earlier.. but it looks basically good to me. Clearly, however, it is not. As I say, following that plan, I am losing the game by the time I have finished researching impulse drive. Any ideas?

-Drake

~SDC~

i usually buy 3 colony ships to begin with and no constructors till I have at least 12-16 planets. all with defenders. then i build constructors that max production. Also when i start i try to set myself up so i have a lot of space between my star cluster and the nearest star cluster in the beginnning of the game. i play gigantic /normal (yor bright) / abundant/universalist + pq + 10 pop bonus + 10 morale + 10 economy + lucky + creative

Don't start with 100% military, I find that 80%/20%/20% to be much better. Set your first social project to be soil enhancement, set your research goal first for universal translator (to get trade going, and to get bank social project), then my next research goal is for habitat improvement. When that is done I have 3 social projects (soil, hab, bank) that are all 0 maintenance and all increase my income (among other things). Use the entertainment network as a 'sink' for excess social production if you find a project is finished before your research makes the next project you want available to be built.

Remember to explore and expand aggressively, watch for clusters to come into range and have them explored so that you know whether you can settle them or not. Never stop expanding until you have no place left to expand to. Use a starbase as a range extender if you spot a sweet unsettled cluster that is out of your range. Remember: any yellow you don't grab, someone else -will- grab. You want to be that someone.

I ship 50% of each colony's population out with each colony ship, I only stop a colony from building colony ships when they get below about 150 or so pop (not even then if there are a lot of yellows left around this particular planet). This means that my colony ship producing abilities expand exponentially as I settle, and also means that I can keep a high tax rate and still have 100% morale because all my planets have a very low population. Beeline for juicy plants, if you spot a planet with a PQ of 20 don't be sending your next colony ship to one with a PQ of 16, go for the 20 even if it is far away.

Drake, I follow something similar to you. I don't tend to use Military 100 unless I'm trying to pop a constructor or critical ship.

Remember, scouts cost you in 1.03, so go as light on them as you can. Early on, that 1 maintenence from them can be a back breaker. Also, under 1.03, you don't want to grab EVERY resource to start with. Prioritize. The AI with the most resources early on, now always becomes the last Empire because it cannot fund anything.

Make sure you only colonize planets that you can get a decent PQ. on. This means, leave anything UNDER 13 alone. I don't even bother with the 13's, unless I'm playing with +5 or +7% PQ bonus, as a PQ 15 world really isn't worth having under the current game bonus. I only hold them to kepp the AI from getting them. All they ever make me are colony ships (to keep their population in the MAKING MONEY range), transports (same reason as Colony), and constructors. They aren't worth building up anymore. Trash worlds.

If you have to grab a low PQ world to extend your range, once you get where you need to, abandon it by giving it to one of the AI. This will gain you diplomacy points, and they will abandon it if it's base PQ isn't 15 or greater. (Be prepared for a CTD if you do this though.)

Other then that... the Drengin are getting such huge treasurers because they are BLACKMAILING all the other, weaker AI. They depend on that to bootstrap their economy. If you REALLY want to screw them up, set some of your trash worlds to making SCOUTS, and then give them to the Dregs. Crush their economy with worthless things they have to pay for. If you can spare the constructors, run a long line of CONSTRUCTORS into their core realms or worthless places, build a SB, and SELL it to them.

CRUSH their economy. Just remember to keep your military rating high enough to not be bothered by the bullies, and you shouldn't have a problem.

A great way to crush their economy is to NOT TRADE with them (just their enemies), and selling them worthwhile ships (star fighters, corvettes, battle axes, bigger stuff), at between 5 credits, per turn, for the maximum you can get. I find I can get several hundred turns of lease out them. Trash worlds that are making you money are good for making small ships you can sell at extremem prices to them.

And you can GIVE AWAY ships to their enemies (better ships, for instance), if you are worried about the Dregs crushing them.

The Dregs are the easiest empire to handle. You just need to learn the tricks to handle your Dregs.

And if you are really worried about them, and DON'T have the economic crush tactic down, then trade EXCLUSIVELY with them (so they love you), and just go out and beat on all the other weak guys until you can beat on them.

Okay, today I managed to beat the computer on intelligent. I did two things that made this possible. First, I focused on getting trade goods and sold them for enough to supercharge my economy.. allowing me to get more trade goods, and so on until even with 100% spending I was making a bunch of money every turn. Second, I learned to simply accede to demands when they are reasonable. The result was that I had lots of time to build up... when the Drengin finally declare war on me I had just finished researching dreadnaught tech., and promptly cranked out several (100% military spending for a few months) and watched my military graph shoot from the bottom to about three times as high as the next player. After that it was a cakewalk. The occasional little war to snap up a planet or two, and finally wiping out the Arceans and Altarians, culturally dominating the Yor and Drengin, and allying with the Torians for a political victory.

BUT, I am wondering if I can't improve my game still further. The trade goods rush seems like a gimmick, and while I like the idea that it is a strong strategy it seems like it should not be the ONLY way. Do people beat the game on intelligent without selling even a single trade good? If so, how?

I still cannot understand where all the computers' resources are coming from. In the aforementioned game of long sought victory, there was a point toward the end of the game where the Arceans had two planets and I had about thirty. On the tech and manufacturing graphs, I was only ahead of them by maybe 20%, even though they didn't have half of the technologies I had that were good for increasing manufacturing and research. Also, I only showed up as being twice as strong as them militarily... which was simply not the case. When I finally decided to exterminate them, I sent about ten dreadnaughts with some combat transports over to do the job, leaving another 15 or so back in my systems. Each of my dreads had an attack value of I think 49 or so, while his had like 36. He had about three, plus change (a couple battlecruisers or something). In other words, there is NO WAY that the sum of his attack values was anywhere distantly close to half of the sum of my attack values. So why did he show up as being half as powerful on the graph?

As for the idea of giving the computer useless starbases so on, I absolutely refuse. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the advice. But in my eyes that is not a strategy so much as abuse of an egregious oversight in game design. Maybe I am picky, but I just do not like the idea of winning that way. It is too silly. As for the idea of economically wrecking the computer in general, I have not found it so easy as many people in the forum apparently have. Like I said, in the last game I was selling trade goods like hot cakes to the computer players. I would typically take about 40 creds for 15-25 turns (depending on the race and the good). So from any given race I was probably siphoning off from 40 to 120 creds per turn (plenty of overlap between the terms). It didn't make any noticeable impact upon their growth, although of course it fueled my own.

-Drake

~SDC~

Oh, and I should have added. The other piece of advice I took up was to keep the computers at war with each other so they wouldn't bother me. VERY effective and perfectly realistic. Thanks for the tip on that one.

-Drake

~SDC~

Whhat shoud I do right now...

Its a gigantic map on beginner and Drengins and I leuge are teamed up on everybody. The iA leauge military migh tis 4503 I wanna kill em but I cant everybody is so weak but them

Keep in mind that your graph settings for things like tech, production, etc. are dependent on your current output, not your potential output. E.G., if you set your tech slider to 0% then your tech position will bottom out compared to any race that has a non-0% tech slider setting.

How are you at setting up trade routes? This is one of the more important aspects of the game, and it's good to get them set up ASAP. I usually have my first freighters showing up near the end of my colonization period (research the tech, the switch a couple of constructor projects over to freighters for whichever planets I feel are in the best position to set up trade routes). Getting trade routes up, and getting the tech for additional routes, is a big part of getting your economy up and running. The computer is quite good at this, and prioritizes it pretty highly.

I usually have 2-3 planets making freighters, and I'll have them make them until I have 8 freighters made. I can't use that many at the beginning of course, but what I do is park them right next to the destination planet. Then whenever I get a +1 trade tech I can immediately implement the trade route. (Note: the game allows multiple trade routes between the same planets, so you can have 10 trade routes between Planet Smoochie and Planet DrenginCapital.

Keep in mind that trade routes strengthen both races involve. Don't run trade routes to an AI that you want to keep weak unless you have no other option. Also think about the future of the planet you are running a trade route to: will that planet remain one you can trade with in the future? It's embarassing to culture flip the planets you are trading with, causing massive losses to your economy. Minor races are generally immune to flipping, but the Alexians -can- be flipped so be aware of this.