The computer doesn't cheat at Intelligent, and I am the Dalai Lama (with proof!)

what political party did they choose? what race traits did they pick? how many +1% econ anomalies did they pick up? how many galactic cash resources? could these add up to the extra % they got?

At first I couldn't seem to download your games because they are case sensitive (Super.... etc). These links worked better for me:

http://www.restorethepledge.com/rapacity/GalCiv/Superaltarians.zip

http://www.restorethepledge.com/rapacity/GalCiv/Supertorians.zip


I'll take a look at them tomorrow, but I am not an expert.

It's not just that, I've started a new game in a small universe against the Arcean's with them on "fool" and within maybe five turns they have 4 colonyships and still only one planet.

~SDC~

Ramonixle - that's because the Arceans are great fans of leasing colony ships early on.

Ok. I took a quick look at the Torians game (really quick, so don't slap me in the face if I am wrong )

Without pressing any 'turn' I can see that they have 7(!) planets and you have 3. They colonized multiple planets on the same system. They probably rush built some Colony ships, or put their military spending at 100% (instead the 34% you are using).

For every planet they colonized they could have had some events which boosted their economy even further. As far as I can see in my 2 minutes I looked at the game, I cannot see anything that looks like cheating. I look at this thread again tomorrow (it's quite late already in the Netherlands) and I might check the game more thoroughly.

If you tweak your economic sliders, adjust your taxes to approx 55%, spending to 90 to 100%, and to 70-0-30 on your bottom three sliders, you can usually crank out a colony ship naturally ever 3 to 4 turns. Depending on your colonization pattern and your leases, you can probably crank out 6 to 7 by turn 5, so it can be done.

Secondly, you're not going to keep up on population in the early going, so don't try it. Rushing trade goods is a good strategy because you can turn around and parlay those trade goods into technologies or money.

Third, you need a military if you dont want the AI exploiting you. Pre 104, you want as much offense as you can muster, Post 104, you want to just plain put ships out (probably emphasizes a more balanced approach)

Remember those, this game requires you adjust your spending sliders if you want to try to keep up.

SeanB

wow. this must be the only game in history where the computer "Cheats." I'm devasted.

The AI isn't cheating but it's not supposed to lease ships (including colony ships) until normal level of intelligence.

What version are you running?

I think he was running on Intelligent AI across the board judging from the following:




[Message Edited]

Well, techinically I would say being able to see
yellow stars and resources on the map without scouting
for them is cheating. But I forgive you that, as
search algothrithms are very difficult to write.

Okay, thanks for the replies, guys. First, thanks to Dikdirk for correcting my urls. As for the bad start you mentioned, yes, as I stated that Torians game is the one in which I tried to get all clever and go with a new approach, and it stunted my growth. But the Torian charts are still way above where mine would be normally. In the Superaltarians game I had a 30% racial econ. bonus and a 100% military 100% spending expansion plan. Same results.

Russell, whatever political party and racial bonuses he had, they added up to around 20-30% (which you can see if you spy on him for a bit). Normally I have a racial/political econ. bonus of 30%, and it does NOT have that effect. Actually, I wonder what the effect is at all. Here are some hard numbers for you. The other day I started a game with 0 racial/political econ. bonuses and Earth was PQ 20. Income from Earth was 12. Then I started over and set my party to Federalists and my racial econ. bonus to +30%, for a total of +50%. I hit control-N until I got an Earth that was PQ 20 again. Income? 13. Now it's been a while since I did any math, so bear with me here... but according to my calculations 150% of 12 is not 13.

As for the idea that he got that through resources or anomalies, no chance. It's too early in the game, and if you look at his techs you will see that he doesn't even have refining yet.

Force Infinity, I don't recall exactly how I played that one. I may have tried to get all clever and use the 60/20/20 split that everyone says is superior. But normally I use a 100% military 100% spending approach until there are no more stars left to claim, and with the same result every time. I know for a fact I used the 100,100 approach in the Superaltarians game linked above, and with results that you can see if you load the game. Again, load it up and look at the graph. From the beginning of the game, the Altarians are tarring everyone, and not as a result of military might (which came later on).

And yes, the computer sees everything, but I have long since accepted that. It's quite standard for AIs.

So my question is, can any of you guys beat the computer on Intelligent without selling a single trade good or giving away a single ship, colony, or starbase?

And one more question. Someone mentioned that excess research beyond that necessary to finish off a tech. is wasted, so in my last game I tried tweaking the sliders so that the excess was always very minimal (impossible to make it 0 since you can't see the actual numbers...). It had a noticeable payoff. But it was REALLY annoying to do. Is tweaking the sliders to prevent wasted research a standard feature of everyone's game plan?

-Drake

~SDC~

Richard - yes, my last five games I have been playing against intelligent AIs and managed to win. I only sold trade goods in the last one (didn't think of it until I saw it in a post!), I've never given away a starbase or colony, and I only give away obsolete ships (gee, another USS Defender Fortune! Hmmm - who can I butter up....)

The general strategy I use is to try to make friends with the good guys, let them get into wars of attrition with the evil guys, and tough out any wars I get into in the meantime. I rarely fight major engagements anymore; if the Drengin want to throw their ships away running into my battle axes, more power to them. Sooner or later they get tired and I'm left to slowly conquer the galaxy through my superior culture. (I also usually leave a constructor near any resource I find for when one warring side destroys another's starbase there.)

Of course, you will note that by far my highest score has been when I used the trade good rushing tactic. I have found that since 1.03 came out I'm just not having as much fun - there only seems to be one decent path to victory. I'm hoping 1.04 will change that.

While I am abstractly annoyed that the AI may be "cheating", I am more concerned that I can play the game and have fun - be challenged, but still be able to win.

Okay, forget those other two. Explain THIS saved game.

http://www.restorethepledge.com/rapacity/GalCiv/supertorians2.zip

It is before the Torians have even finished colonizing new worlds. They have 6 planets. I have FIFTEEN, including a PQ 20 Earth, a PQ 17 Jotunheim and several PQ 16 worlds. It was the best starting position imaginable. I also have a +30% racial/political econ bonus (Federalists, +10% racial). I am blowing the Torians out of the water in population.

You can actually go COUNT the base revenue coming from the planets, since you can see the revenue of his planets as well as your own. Count them up. Torians 69, humans 92. By the way, this is DESPITE the fact that for some mysterious reason all his base revenues are higher. Compare a couple planets.

Jotunheim I (humans): PQ 17, 687 pop., revenue 8.
Antares I (torians): PQ 17, 442 pop., revenue 9.

Yup, that's right, with 2/3 the population on a same PQ world he is getting more revenue. Even assuming he has a banking center (which may or may not be the case) that should not be the case. Even if he has a banking center AND a higher political/racial econ. bonus (not likely) that should not be the case.

Despite my much larger territory, higher population, and even higher (though the margin should be greater) countable base revenue, they are beating me economically. Go look at the graph. This time, only by about 10% or so. But there is no way that with less than half the planets and less population and probably lower bonuses he is getting a higher income. The computer has to be cheating. Or if he IS doing it legitimately, I want to know how. So I can do it. That's all. The saved game is right there with all the data available in the usual screens, and it's early enough in the game that the history of play should be apparent from looking at it. Tell me how to do it so I can compete at this level, or admit that the computer is cheating so I can feel justified playing at a lower difficulty level.

-Drake


~SDC~

Feargus - that is cool. I am glad to know that it is possible, and I hope to replicate your victory soon. The saved game I have that's linked in the above post, I'm keeping around so I can try again and again from it. That should be a sufficiently enormous advantage that I can win once I figure out what I'm doing wrong.

As far as what you said about whether the game cheating being much of an issue, I understand. Normally it is not an issue for me, and indeed I even expect AIs to cheat. It is quite standard, after all. The main reason it's such a big issue for me with Galactic Civilizations is that avowedly the computer does NOT cheat at this difficulty level. Which means that I must REALLY suck to be getting my butt kicked. If I can get verification that the computer does indeed cheat then I will feel comfortable simply playing on a lower difficulty level. Also, call it demanding, but I expect GalCiv to be better in this regard. It's better than every other game of this sort in pretty much every other department, after all.

-Drake

~SDC~

The reason I would chose 70-0-30 is that you will need the research to rush toward the trade goods. I know you hate the cliche, but I use my trade goods to parlay for new technologies (preferably other technologies that give trade goods). I will usually first march down the social techs to get diplomacy for the diplomatic translaters. Cool. Next step is to march toward Gravity Accelerators. Better. Now by this time I may've hit a computer...maybe not. Usually at this point I rush toward phasers so I can build a military. They key here is to keep your blue bar above their bars on the military graph. Once you have phasers, rush toward Aphrodisiac or Frictionless Clothing. Rush buy those trade goods if possible.

The point is that I've generally found in the early going that my population won't keep up, my tech doesn't keep up, influence, etc. The only thing that keeps up is my miliary. However, if you manage to get to keep up with the computer military-wise, you're in good shape.

As to colonization patterns, use all available planets to crank out colony ships, rush them if necessary until you have ring (or arc) of colonies outside of your core systems. Switch your core systems to constructors. That way when you hit phasers, you can cut over to starfighters (often times to immediate effect) As you complete a second ring/arc, switch that to constructors as your outer ring works on colonies at the same time.

Assuming huge galaxy, you can end up anywhere with as little as 20 to as many as 40 colonies. By the time you hit this stage, change your spending to 40-30-30 or maybe 50-20-20 depending on how desparate your military is. You'll know real fast after this stage how you're going to do. If your first wave or so of starfighters doesn't put a serious dent in the computer, then you're going to be in for a rough time. If your miliary surges past theirs, then you're home free. At that point, use whatever tactics you feel best with. Because they're not going to bother you if you're military is equivalent or stronger than theirs.

SeanB

I was more interested in the second part of the demonstration but you totally forgot: where's the proof you're the Dalai Lama?!

I have beaten the game on masochistic following those
rules you outlined

I agree with RubberDucky666 o enlightened one. Proof to us, the ignorant masses, that you truly are who you claim to be.

That doesn't say anything. The revenue depends on the number of (tax paying) citizens and the setting of your tax slider. Just give your tax slider a push to the right and see your revenue per planet increase. Maybe your econ. level is that low because of your low tax level.



Your stats give you +30% to economics. The Torians get +45% to economics. I am not sure how they got that, but that's just what i read from your savegame (maybe the banking center, maybe starting bonusses, I don't know). If the Torians have a higher econ. bonus AND have their tax level higher (which they do), that could easily explain the difference.



Territory doesn't mean anything.



There is way. Planet number also means nothing. Population does. The 'problem' is that your taxes are lower and that you 'only' have +30% instead of the Torians +45%

I still can't see any cheating....sorry :notsure:

[Message Edited]

"I challenge anybody to beat the computer at Intelligent without using any tactics that the computer does not use."

Sure, I've done that 5 times in the last week. My strategy: Have a strong, if not the strongest, military. It's that simple. Just like in the real world the AI's don't like picking a fight with someone stronger than them. You don't need to bankrupt them, blockade planets or rush for trade goods (although trade goods are nice, get them if you can).

"Now it's been a while since I did any math, so bear with me here... but according to my calculations 150% of 12 is not 13."

The econ bonus is added to some number on it's way into the tax calculations, not the end result. I normally take +50 economics and when I have a few planets up and running I am rolling in cash even with a 100% spend rate.

Richard, I dled the save and tweaked your sliders. One turn later you have a much better economy. I don't have anywhere to upload the file to but I can email the rared version of it if you want. Basicly I upped your tax to 50% and your spend rate to 54%. Also, it might be a good idea to keep you tech slider at 30 early on, reseach is expensive!

This has been posted elsewhere, do a search for Staffa's thread on how to score 20k in one game. Unfortunately the AI isn't all that good even on intelligent. While they may have economic bonuses you lack, they will tend to be slower to aquire new tech and forget about them invading; it doesn't happen often. The key is a strong military. My stategy FWIW:

1) Colonizer rush. Tax rate 50%, 100% military until all colonizable planets are colonized or until you meet the AI. This has been described here.


2) Then I switch to 100% Tech for a few turns, then 50/50 tech/social until I get defenders, then 40/30/40 or something similiar to build defenders on all planets.

3) Whenever I get a trade good I get my best planet working on it ASAP. I will even switch to 100% social to get that trade good. Once I have a few techs, trade like made. I tend not to trade trade goods unless i am in a tight spot.

4) Once you get the trade tech, send out freighters to AIs you hope won't declair war on you soon and you don't plan to conquer soon. The longer you have the trade routes, the more money you make.

5) Research like mad until Battleship, then crank out those BBs. That will finally get the AI off your back, until then it's a never ending struggle to pacify them or let them grind against your battleaxes. This is probably the biggest key to winning, get that battleship first!

Once that is done, you can can wipe the galaxy of the puny aliens. I will usaully wait until dreadnaught, then crank out 10 or so, some transports, and start invading. Take out the most annoying AI first, they had it coming. Minor races are just begging, too. Be sure to:

1) extort whatever you can out of them the turn before you invade.
2) When you feel like stopping invading, sue for peace. They'll listen - or die.
3) Extort them at the peace table. You can get some outragous deals here, such as 1200 credits for 100 turns or something . They will agree to anything to keep you off their back. But they must have enough credits initially to cover the first turn, or else you can't demand it of them.

#3 does two things, one make you fabulously rich. Second, it makes them broker than heck, and that lower's their moral. What to do w/ the cash? Divert it into destabilization of races within your sphere of influence. They'll quickly convert to your superior empire.

Tips to being more ruthless:

1) Amass all your ships right next to their key planets, then invade. Don't piece-mail it and give them a chance.
2) Extortion, extortion, extortion.
3) Don't rely so much on trade. You can extort a similiar amount for the amount you'll get in trade.
4) Use core detonators on a planet, then give it to some AI.
5) Once you completely dominate, give 1/4 of your military to opponent A, and give 1/4 to opponent B. Then let them duke it out. When A takes over B's planets, invade those, since they are easy pickings.
6) Kill your enemy's freighters, since those are their income source, not to mention spys.
7) Build a terror star right next to their core systems, and protect it with several dreadnaughts. They will learn to fear your name!

That's all I can think of. If you have any more ruthless ideas, pass them on. We all can be a little G.R.O.S.S. if we put our mind to it.

There's bound to be people who would love to find the AI cheating in this game (aside from the AI's knowing where yellow stars are, and higher starting income at higher at AI levels, both of which are already acknowledged)

Brad has too much credibility to lose to actually insert cheating methods into a game when one of the main selling points is how good the AI is compared to other 4X'ers. It sounds like there are at least a few unknown factors which could explain these descrepancies, or at least error in coding. I would tend to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that first, as opposed to automatically accusing the AI of cheating.

~SDC~

Im curious how the AI is managing morale on some of
its systems I culturally flip.

I take a 16 pq planet with influence that has 30
billion people on it. Its morale is so god awful
low that I have to unload half the pop and rush
buy about 4 improvements before its not a threat
to goto the I-league. Exactly how does the AI manage
to get planets like this?

My best guess is that one of the AI's does not have to
deal with morale, perhaps the cybernetic Yor. To bad
I have to deal with morale when I get them.

I have also noticed this.

On the one hand, I suspect that indeed, the AIs have some special techniques that keep their people happy when mine would revolt.

On the other hand, I suspect that there might be a reason why a system decides to revolt and change over to the light side - maybe because their AI rulers didn't have any special advantage after all? Maybe the AI unloaded a system that was PO'ing it (P'ing it O?) onto another annoying race?