DotA has fog of war.. and it reveals both items and mana. Items aren't even under debate of being shown, only mana is. DotA is the closest game relation to this. Not to say you're wrong, just the fog of war logic is a bit flawed in saying so.

Yah giving away all info is bad, but you need to provide the players with enough information to actually make decisions which are based on something else than guessing. Just take a look at the most successful RTS which has Heroes and spells in it : Warcraft III. In Warcraft III you do see the mana of the enemies. You even see the items of the enemy - which is something I don't like too much but I have to give Blizzard credit that they originally didn't show the items of the enemy (as it should be done in Demigod). They changed it - I think with the release of TFT - as the overwhelming majority of players including top players like Tillerman demanded to see the enemy items to reduce the amount of luck in Warcraft III (and as creeps drop random items in Warcraft III I can see their point).

The Question is what would it take away from Demigod if you see the mana of your enemy and what would it add, and I am totally convinced that it would add more as long as you don't see the items of your enemy and therefore you don't know if he has a potion or not.

Beta 2C didn't show max hp of enemies, just the health bars - was that "more skillful" or "plain stupid" ?

Are you talking about DoTA, or are you talking about the core itself? DoTA wasn't developed by blizzard, and even then Demigod is NOT Warcraft III (core).

It would take out the responsibility of watching the frequency of spell use, as well as take out the surprise of what might happen in the immediate future. It's not like mana potions are exactly a game-turning item anyway.

Wasn't here for that, so I can't tell you.

Frequency of spell-use, as One and I have commented about, truly does not tell you just what the opponent is capable of. There are far far too many variables to ever be able to blindly gauge mana. And also aforementioned, it allows anyone mid or later game to throw mana around because they are protected in a sense BY these indeterminable variables in mana. It becomes less luck-based if mana is shown.

It becomes utterly boring if mana is shown.

This.  It keeps me on my toes and forces me to treat any demigod as a serious threat at all times.  The rook is a perfect example.  If I could always see his mana I would be fearless against him with a melee DG as soon as his mana bar dropped.  As it is now I always have to treat him with respect and caution, ever fearful of that massive hammer.  I enjoy it this way.

Anyone remember Beta 1b?

They show hp and mana bar but not the #.

lets say you'd see his mana bar is empty, how would you know he doesn't have a potion in his bag? Would it really change the situation that much?

I agree completely!  In fact, I would prefer that they remove the hitpoint/life bar on enemies as well.  This will force players to pay attention - something they fail to do as long as they have any idea of their opponent's health or mana.  In fact, let's take it the next logical step and make the fog of war permanently cover the whole map!  When players have cues as to the location of their DGs or that of their opponents they really don't pay attention.. With permanent Fog of War you need real skill to meaningfully affect gameplay in any way, seperating the men from the boys once and for all...Of course if you really want to play at a high skill level then immediately on entering a game the screen should go blank....

/sarcasm off

Health and Mana should be the cards on the table.  The Jury is still out as to whether you should be able to pay to see the some of your allies or enemy's cards (equipment, etc), but inventory and skills are the cards in your hand that no one can see but you. 

Taking mana out of the UI adds an element of chance and bluffing to the game - it's ok to like that, but it's ridiculous to claim that you have any idea what is going on with an opponent's mana based on paying attention, past level 3 or so.  Many many abilities can be triggered when the opponent is out of your LoS - Regulus' Mines being the most prevalent example.

Ability to see mana actually introduces more complexity to the game, not less, because you now have to keep track of factors that before you could only guess at.  I'm not going to jump into a battle with a Sedna who has half health but full mana but I will attack one with full health but no mana - something my opponent might be counting on as they stock up on mana pots, etc...The variables increase and consequently take more skill to interpret, imo.

The variables do not increase by reducing the number of unknowns (aka variables). You're switching the x in an equation to a certain, known value - that is literally the definition of decreasing the variables.

This is a hard one - it takes and adds to gameplay.

It means when im Rook with 0 mana I cant bluff and - lets say - stay at a flag as the enemy will know im useless. That takes away imo.

It was said that there would be no combot pots in beta 3. Does that mean that other pots will be avalaible? Dunno.

If there is however it does add the dimension of pretending to have no mana then using a mana pot and suprising them - which adds to the game.

This also however means pots become more of a neccesity/more effective - which imo the game does not really need atm.


Hmmmm

Ke5trel, thank you for supporting me against the fools who think "paying attention" will ever help you in an AoS-type game in regards to health and mana. I approve of ke5trel! (no sarcasm, text is too ambiguous -.-)

Well, yes.  If he stops to use a potion I'm going to see that animation start.  At that point I would be hovering over him closely watching his mana bar, if it fills I'd back away or warp out.   But if I can't see his bar at all, the best I can do is guess when he might be empty and take the risk of closing in.

To me, being able to conceal what I have from my enemy or use deception is appealing, it takes a page right out of The Art of War.  Allowing misdirection and concealment in a battle makes the experience deeper in my view.  If everything my opponent has is an open book, these elements disapear.  No mana bar means I can bluff strength when I am weak, or do just the opposite.

:edit:  To Kestrel:  Slow down buddy.  I'm sure not making such a rediculous argument about "keeping track" when I can't see it.  I am making an argument about the appeal of bluffing and deception in a strategy game.  There HAS to be some information available to mark the progress of your battle and determine if you are being effective or not.  Seeing health is essential for this, and there is no reason you wouldn't be able to see it, since a health bar is just a system to display how damaged something is.  Since it would be impossible to graphically display a demigod in various stages of damage (way to much work) a bar is used instead. 

We are disagreeing about something that is a matter of taste.  You do not want bluffing in your game, that is fine, but I do. To say that it is a logical extention of my viewpoint that we should hide EVERYTHING is a non sequitur.

combat mana potion has a cast time of only 0.3 seconds. If you are a really fast reacting player you need at least 150ms to realize your enemy is using it and then you have the default net_lag of 200ms which means your enemy will be able to start casting his spell before you warped out with the 500ms casting time warp stone - And if you wait til he has finished the potion you are dead already.

No you can't bluff - every sane enemy will just ALWAYS assume you have mana when there is absolutely no way to even make an qualified guess as the risk is just too high. (Exceptions being situations where your enemy desperately needs to score that particular kill to prevent his defeat.

Interesting.  In the event they remove those combat potions it could be a moot point.  Why would every sane enemy just assume that?  I've seen plenty of situations where I could make a reasonable guess after watching an enemy spam high cost spells. 

Overall, I wouldn't be that against mana being shown if thats what most people want, I've explained my preferences.  As long as it doesn't start including gear and items, that's going too far imo.

I totally agree.

showing friendly dg's mana would be good, not enemies though

My post was intentionally over the top, apologies if it was too much

It's meant to illustrate that our conversation takes place on a spectrum between complete information and no information, if we take your argument to its extreme conclusion we get a blank screen.  If we take my argument to its extreme conclusion we get Chess or Go..

Showing mana doesn't strip bluffing out of the game at all - it *gives* you something to bluff about. 

Right now I have no meaningful data about your mana usage because many abilities can be triggered outside of my line of sight and remain effective.  Or you can pop a mana pot and destroy any educated guesses I have made.  Or we could be playing a team game and I was paying attention to your ally, not you.  Or you could have bought 3k of mana items.  See what I'm saying? 

There are too many factors to control for, with current mana.  That's why I got a little frustrated about the PAY ATTENTION narrative.  

As TBO says, I have to assume that you have mana.  I attack, retreat, and coordinate actions based on that assumption.  As a result I've trained my gameplay to essentially exclude mana.

Showing enemy mana means that I now have meaningful information to act with - I can't afford to exclude mana as a factor any more because it can be controlled for.   

And this is where you can bluff effectively - showing me an empty mana bar and then popping a pot or restore when I fall for it will work now.  At the same time, you will want to make sure you don't waste that mana, because if you do and you don't have any way to restore it I will make you pay..

Well, I've mulled it over for awhile. You guys make good arguments, so I'm changing my "vote" so to speak. I can see the value in displaying an opponents mana as adding a true deeper element.  I realize I was thinking a bit upside down on bluffing,  this would actually do exactly what I was asking for.  Still a big No for displaying anything else though.