[Balance]/[Cheese] Crowd Control Imbalances in Demigod

CROWD CONTROL or "CC" = Stun, Silence, Root, or Polymorph-like spells

 

Alright, so we all know there's some big problems with crowd control abilities in this game. Deep Freeze, Boulder, Silence, Mass Charm (LOL), and Mageslayer should cover this discussion.

Pretty much any team that doesn't have Rook+Ice TB in it is worthless. With warpstone, boulder, deep freeze you really don't have a chance in hell avoiding that 2k+ hammer and whatever x shatter the TB can pull off. Stuns in this game are ridiculously long, and they make it way too easy to deliver damage.

There are FEW 2v2 teams that can take on Rook+TB. When you add a third, fourth, or fifth player to the equation you don't really have a choice but to take this insanely powerful combination because of how much damage it brings and how little it takes for it to come "online". The combo starts once Rook gets Boulder, and TB gets Deep Freeze. This crap is possible from level 5. If you think this is bad, wait until around level 10 when they both have Warpstone, and longer duration on their stuns. The hammer is hitting for twice as much and there is nothing you can do but take it.

Generally the safest way to do this combo if you're fighting against good opponents is to initiate with Boulder. If it lands, TB warpstones forward, Deep Freezes and Rook warps to the fray and drops his hammer on your head while TB Rains you. You do not get a chance to react. If they miss the boulder and decide to go for it anyway, this is the only area where you MAY be able to get away.

You may say, use Erebus or Sedna to interrupt the combo. Well, hate to break it to you but Sedna would probably be the first target for the combo and you won't even get a chance to silence. Erebus? Rofl? Come on, you'd have to have precognition or extremely lucky to Bat Swarm in after the Deep Freeze and land a 1 sec cast AOE stun with lag.

Mageslayer, oh Mageslayer. You are 8k gold and give Demigods like Regulus and Unclean Beast the ability to rarely let you cast a spell, hinder your movement greatly, or practically removing you from a fight all together. This needs to be fixed.

To fix the blatant CC problems in this game, there are a few different ways of going about it.

 

1. Reduce crowd control spells duration

2. Add diminishing returns to the game so that you cannot be locked down by CC (If you do not understand what diminishing returns is, I can explain it in a later post)

3. Removing/severely limiting stuns from Assassins and giving a unique form of CC to each General. This would give Generals a large utility boost as people would be less inclined to run General-less teams.

Let's be honest, Rook doesn't need 3 seconds to Boulder you late game, the skill should top out at 2.

Erebus has the most worthless stun in the game. This combined with the fact he brings nothing to a competitive team comp and not working well with minions due to bat swarm not porting them with him makes him the most undesirable Demigod.

Ice TB is doing more damage than any Demigod in the game and has an incredibly powerful CC tool.

Sedna is the only realistic way to counter this extremely powerful combo, but her being the first target would make you have to run 2. I would suggest having her silence time cap out at 4 seconds if CC in the game was reduced, as you can still run if affected by it.

Finally Mageslayer. This should be (As suggest by Dalzk, I think?) a 0.40 second silence, not stun. I would also add that the cost be increased to 10k, and many artifacts costs lowered/stats adjusted as most you will never even think of getting in a game. As is stands Mageslayer is relatively easy to get, hoses any hero that needs to cast an ability, and costs 2k less than a Godplate.

 

 

That about sums up my post. My next should be on Generals so stay tuned.

2,139 views 14 replies
Reply #1 Top

Good Post, I agree with basically everything here.

Heres my views on changing. As asked, you can send this straight to GPG, and say "change this:"

1. Introduce a consumable that can negate stun effect. This is the least desirable option, as it means you have to spend gold everytime just to avoid a simple mana spell.

2. As mentioned above, let there be diminishing effects with stun. If you get stunned once, the next stun should last half its original time, and the next one again etc. If you get stunned once, the next stun should have to wait about, 7 seconds or so (maybe more? can play around with this figure) for it to have its full effects.

3. Increased Cooldown times should NOT be followed by a stun. If I am doing a move, and I get stunned, when I finally get control over my character again, I shouldnt have to wait another 10 seconds to use an ability. Im looking at Ice TB here....

4. As mentioned above, mageslayer is stupid. Its simply imba. There shouldnt really be an item in a game that can stop you casting spells 90% of the time.

5. When UB stuns/interupts you, you shouldnt have your cooldown time reset. Maybe its cooldown can be reset but by half...or you have to wait a set number of seconds till you can re-use it (4 seconds?) This combined with TB's stun/increased cooldown can mean you never actually can have control over your characters abilities as your always either stunned or hit with increased coodlown.

Overall, this game just shouldnt be based around stuns and stun locking. We had this problem in beta 1, and its kind of back now but not as bad. In the post above, TB + Rook was mentioend. TB + UB can be ever worst, as when you get interupted and stunned by UB, your cooldown time resets, and the same applies with TB - but its even worst because all your skills get reset. Not just that, UB + TB slow your movement speed down, so there isnt really a way to escape their stuns.

Remember, no one really likes stuns. It takes away complete control of your character from you which just shouldnt really happen. In my honest opinion I would say take all stuns out the game (apart from Rooks, as it is needed for his Hamemr slam and can actually be avoided at times) or really, really nerf them. Movement debuffs can already get pretty crazy as it is, the last thing we need are stuns aswell - especially stun locking.

So nice post from HD300, and I encourage people to post what can be changed to stop these stuns getting too imba. Give SD a list of what needs to be changed so they can tell GPG to, not just general info on why you hate stuns (you can add that too at the end :) )

Reply #2 Top

Well, I already mentioned this in that thread (I apologize for the sheer size, though)

I agree with most of the OP on this particular topic.

-multi stun combo are neither balanced nor fun, and so is mageslayer.

-an anti stun item could be handy but must not become a must have like the warp stone.

-diminishing return and no CD reset are good solutions.

 

I disagree a bit about Erebus. His stun is certainly less lethal than most but it's an area stun easier to land than frost nova. Of course if stuns no longer act as interrupts it will be another story...

 

Many things are subject to change.

If minions return to be a viable strategy, if WP is nerfed, a teleporting demigod, with area zone control will certainly play a new role.

Reply #3 Top

Actually, as far as I know all generals do have atleast the smallest form of CC.

Reply #4 Top

You guys are crying for nothing its not cheap, just learn to back away when you see it coming be vigalint. In dota people don;t cry about a team full of stunners and they can be beat you just have to not be a noob. Watch for incoming ganks, boulder is hella easy to dodge if your not retarded and just get a warpstone (its an amazing item and cheap price) when TB gets close warp away instantly the cast time on TB spells are way longer then a warp cast time. I see nothing wrong with it, Maybe boulders stun time is a bit long but still its easily avoidable.

some stuns may be a bit more then they should be but there not AS OP as you guys are making them out to be. This game is all about Map control. Play the field and keep your enemies in check. No matter what game you play If you let any hero (Demigod Or dota) run all over you in the beggining they just get more powerful later. Be cautious and smart.

AS FAR AS BUFFS LIKE MAGE SLAYERS MINI STUN ON HIT iTS NOTHING COMPARED TO dOTAS FUCKING STUNS, sOME HEROS GET AS MUCH AS A 40% ON HIT TO STUN FOR A SECond and they can attack way faster then heros in demigod can. (sorry for caps to lazy to retype it)

Reply #5 Top

You guys are crying for nothing its not cheap, just learn to back away when you see it coming be vigalint. In dota people don;t cry about a team full of stunners and they can be beat you just have to not be a noob. Watch for incoming ganks, boulder is hella easy to dodge if your not retarded and just get a warpstone (its an amazing item and cheap price) when TB gets close warp away instantly the cast time on TB spells are way longer then a warp cast time. I see nothing wrong with it, Maybe boulders stun time is a bit long but still its easily avoidable.

some stuns may be a bit more then they should be but there not AS OP as you guys are making them out to be. This game is all about Map control. Play the field and keep your enemies in check. No matter what game you play If you let any hero (Demigod Or dota) run all over you in the beggining they just get more powerful later. Be cautious and smart.

AS FAR AS BUFFS LIKE MAGE SLAYERS MINI STUN ON HIT iTS NOTHING COMPARED TO dOTAS FUCKING STUNS, sOME HEROS GET AS MUCH AS A 40% ON HIT TO STUN FOR A SECond and they can attack way faster then heros in demigod can. (sorry for caps to lazy to retype it)

1. I couldnt give a fu** about what its like in DotA.

2. If you have to freaking warp away as soon as you see a stun Demigod coming how exactly do you win? This isnt like DotA where you can afford to that, you have to be able to stay at flags and fight/defend for them. Thats why you cant keep using DotA as a comparison with tatics.

3. How many organised/good teams have you played agaisnt? How many times have you played DG? There is a 2v2 tourny this weekend at gamereplays.org - you are welcome to play. If you still have the same views after playing it, then fair enough :)

Reply #6 Top

Quoting The_Syv, reply 4
You guys are crying for nothing its not cheap, just learn to back away when you see it coming be vigalint. In dota people don;t cry about a team full of stunners and they can be beat you just have to not be a noob. Watch for incoming ganks, boulder is hella easy to dodge if your not retarded and just get a warpstone (its an amazing item and cheap price) when TB gets close warp away instantly the cast time on TB spells are way longer then a warp cast time. I see nothing wrong with it, Maybe boulders stun time is a bit long but still its easily avoidable.

If you have never played an organized 3v3+ why are you even responding? Big matches boil down to fighting in a 5x5 meter square and the aoe interrupts/stuns/silences are absolutely absurd in these situations.

The game is about getting kills, map control is ancillary considering the weakness and invalidity of the creeps. You can not run a 3v3 team that doesn't have an Ice TB and a Sedna and expect to win (double interrupt characters). The game comes down to who pulls off a power combo first.

There are so many powerful snares, stuns, and interrupts in the game that running away is nearly an impossibility so you either must group up and fight or die by gank trying to get flags.


Quoting The_Syv, reply 4
AS FAR AS BUFFS LIKE MAGE SLAYERS MINI STUN ON HIT iTS NOTHING COMPARED TO dOTAS FUCKING STUNS, sOME HEROS GET AS MUCH AS A 40% ON HIT TO STUN FOR A SECond and they can attack way faster then heros in demigod can. (sorry for caps to lazy to retype it)

This is a Demigod forum, this DotA game you speak of is not the topic of this board.

 

We need game mechanics that force people to spread out, and we need to limit or completely remove aoe roots, stuns, silences, and interrupts.

Good post HD, you hit a lot of the important points.

 

TLDR; Play the damn game before you act like you know something.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting The_Syv, reply 4
You guys are crying for nothing its not cheap, just learn to back away when you see it coming be vigalint. In dota people don;t cry about a team full of stunners and they can be beat you just have to not be a noob. Watch for incoming ganks, boulder is hella easy to dodge if your not retarded and just get a warpstone (its an amazing item and cheap price) when TB gets close warp away instantly the cast time on TB spells are way longer then a warp cast time. I see nothing wrong with it, Maybe boulders stun time is a bit long but still its easily avoidable.

some stuns may be a bit more then they should be but there not AS OP as you guys are making them out to be. This game is all about Map control. Play the field and keep your enemies in check. No matter what game you play If you let any hero (Demigod Or dota) run all over you in the beggining they just get more powerful later. Be cautious and smart.

AS FAR AS BUFFS LIKE MAGE SLAYERS MINI STUN ON HIT iTS NOTHING COMPARED TO dOTAS FUCKING STUNS, sOME HEROS GET AS MUCH AS A 40% ON HIT TO STUN FOR A SECond and they can attack way faster then heros in demigod can. (sorry for caps to lazy to retype it)

 

Not really sure how to respond to this bag of fail.

 

Come in IRC, get a teammate and 2v2 Dalzk and I. You'll be preaching momentarily.

 

ITT: People who only play PUB games think they're amazing and have no clue how imbalanced certain combos are. Better yet, he probably plays Pantheon all day and doesn't realize all he's facing are computers with poor AI.

Reply #8 Top

No, Boulder from a distance is easily avoidable (and it's a arguable affirmation with current comment lag) but at melee/low distance, that's not the case.

I didn't play DotA and can't tell whether direct comparison is relevant. But DotA characters and items are certainly far more diverse and numerous. We are currently playing a game with a limited set of options. Current boulder combo implies you must avoid going melee with this specific character. Telling us about hyper violent combo in another game doesn't imply it should be copypasted to a new one.

Of course you can play cunningly and avoid cheezy boulders. But it's not so difficult to ask from the rook player to be equally cunning and land his combo when he's sure about it. As far as I have witnessed, within games with players who know when to retreat and to push, using warpstone as much as possible,  things of this kind have enormous impact among players of roughly similar levels.

 

 

Reply #9 Top

Well I'm sure Syv gets the point his post will full of fail now and really doesnt help the thread...Back on topic:

AoE Stuns (Looking at TB's here):
I was thinking that maybe TB's AoE stun should only stun the nearest DG and have another effect or do nothing to other DG's. Thoughts? This could be part of its nerf...

Reply #10 Top

Problem of AoE Stuns

So, there´s one guy argueing with dota. In DotA we have mass stun chars too, yes. But the big point is (please, somebody plays the drums right now!):

Those AoE stuns are in DotA declared as such called ultimates, they´re special attacks with extremly long cooldowns (120sec +).

 

I know, this isn´t DotA, but maybe increasing the cooldown for AoE stuns would be a smart move. Just a random thought of this.

 

Problem of Warpstone

Warpstone offers your team a great way to kill the entirely enemy team in a few seconds. So, warpstone have to be redesigned in order to make the choice of getting this item more complex (or whatever the right word is). Maybe with something like that:

    Costs: need to be changed
    30yd range
    0.5 sec casting time
    30 sec cooldown

   Use: Warp to a nearby location

   Effect: After use, you´re unable to cast any spells for 0.75 seconds

Dont discuss numbers or this specific effect now on detail, the point is, maybe adding some negative effects to it will solve the problem.

Reply #11 Top

I like the idea of not being able to cast spells after a warpstone and I want to add my voice that at the moment CC does seem way too powerful. I'm getting killed most of the time before I even have time to blink with such combos. Certainly a good coordination of a team should allow for ganking and quickly taking down someone but the unfortunate victim should have _some_ chance to at least run away once he smells it coming. As it is, with warpstone, as soon as you start fighting one DG, the other warps behind you and then it's game over.

I will admit that I'm a relative n00b and I don't have a skilled team mate to play with but I think the game should be marginally fun if one has to play multiplayer alone (as in, not part of a clan, or having friends who play DG as well)

Reply #12 Top

Warpstone is being removed for next update, so no need to argue about that for the moment. If it does stay though, it will be getting a massive nerf.

Reply #13 Top

Warpstone is being removed for next update

Just because Frogboy wants it this way doesn't mean its going to happen

Reply #14 Top

Just because Frogboy wants it this way doesn't mean its going to happen

Well I want it this way too therefore it will happen. Im sure they will at least nerf it though?