[competition] warning, long read but proofed and slightly directed to makers of demigod interested in competition

My background on competition is from a year of competitive ET:QW, with 2-3 leagues going at the same time, plus I watch a few starcraft matches and have looked at TF2 and CSS matches.  If you compare "spectator sport"-like games, starcraft is the most successful.  It isn't because of the graphics.  It's because the other spectator appealing games such as CS and TF2 featured very simple gameplay.  If you were a medic in TF2, you heal a soldier who shoots himself in the middle of the map to increase the rate of uber and then your team would ingage only when you have invincibility.  Rarely would a medic be doing something else.  A spy would almost always cloak and try to back stab or sabotage a sentry.  CS is pretty much a death match where battles are over in 3 shots.  Compare that to starcraft; not only are battles more than 5 seconds, the amount of successful strategies are just large by nature of being an RTS (also helps that it was the most balanced game ever).  And, as we can see, competition does help in a game's longevity (starcraft, 10 years old?).

Therefore i think competition should be a priority sometime in the near future.  Some ideas and how to execute them:

I think if demigod can get a nice spectator mode going with features like being able to flip to certain ppl/areas on the fly, a tv mode where people join tv servers to watch the game and chat, that would build the mass appeal for the competitive scene.  People of all sorts of skill levels would love to watch tournament finals (provided its scheduled in the right time zone).  Also, people would hold back on the cheating as they are being watched and recorded.

Now, you need commentators, and ones who know what they're talking about.  Usually these guys have their shoutcast streamed on their sites.  If demigod, by some miracle, can intergrate it into the game, that make it retarded easy to use, resulting in epic-uber win.  Also, commentary could give players the incentive to perform well, build rep and lessen the emphasize of prizes.  You can have a really important tournament every 3 months with a nice prize and to fill the gap, bi-weekly/monthly tournys. 

I believe that the quality of the commentator can be pivotal in the success of e-sports.  For example, the starcraft matches they have at gomtv.net feature a really awesome guy who knows the strats, technigues and knows his audience may need explanations of what the players are up to.  I personally wouldnt watch starcraft if all i was listening to was the ingame sounds.  Hes white and speaks english if you're wondering, so check that site out.

Also, the guys at http://www.enemyterritory.tv/ feature another really good white guy who goes by GreasedScotsman.  He runs the site and shoutcast ET:QW matches.  He's been at it for a year and a half now, I believe.  Commentary is great, knows how to fill in the downtime and is dedicated to his craft.  He was invited down to QuakeCon as media coverage, doing a great job of shoutcasting that tourny and Splash Damage (the makers of the game) have granted him priviledges to post on the front page of their offical community site.  However, the quake wars scene as been very dead as the number of teams have decreased since first season.  I believe season 4 is nearing the end, which i believe would be around may or june, and just like the last 2 seasons, the existence of the next one will be question able.  Someone doing PR for demigod at least approach this guy, send him a free copy or sumthing and see if he can be swayed into doing regular shoutcasts.  By the time the quake wars season ends, hopefully demigod has a good basis for competition and Greased can get into it.  Also, not to tell anyone how to make a game, but Greased has been doin this a while and im sure if you ask, he can give you a good idea of what a competition game should have and provide good points.

Also, pivotal in keeping teams in competition is to seperate the high caliber from the new guys.  I personally would have 2-4 divisions, depending on the amount of teams.  Clans would be put in each division according to how they are ranked, which would only take data from offical games, incorporating win/lose records and some kind of dominance rating like factoring time, average percent of map control during the game, kills + assist in certain time frames and perhaps a comeback rating like having low percentage of map control but winning.

Assuming Stardock/GPG want to host tournaments for their players, how it would play out in my mind is that clans just sign up and are placed in a tournament bracket, which can be viewed on the website.  Updates to the page would be made once teams have played and reported win or lose.

The tournament style is fine, but players who are knocked out should play the same amount of games as the finalist, if not more to increase their experience.  I think teams that have lost a game should play until they have won 1.  It allows the losers to play more games with someone relative to their level.  From a spectator's point, these loser matches can be a lead up to matches determining advancing matches, acting like an undercard.  It would also allow bench players to get in there and play as some players are tired of losing and since they cant advance in the tournament anyways, they substitute in bench players.  For the teams that lose their first but win their second, capping them at 2 games, they can challenge teams with the same tournament record to try and increase their tournament ranking.  The number of teams you can challenge depends on how games you've played already, so everyone plays the same amount.  Someone who has lost all their games or won all their games in a tournament of 8 plays 3 games, so if you lose once, win once, you can challenge only 1 team.  At the end when all the games are played, your tournament rank is shown and maybe your overall clan rank which factors in other tournaments.

i think a tourny of 8 teams could maybe done in a 2 day weekend.  Anymore and I would say spread it across 2 weeks or month depending on the amount of teams.  The schedule would be up to the paired teams to make, but it has to be within a timeframe.  Also, get into some kind of advertising.  Just as long as it's not intrusive or seems out of place, i wouldn't pay attention to it after the 10th time.  As prizes, your sponsers could provide them.

I actually glad that demigod has some hype but not too much as that would allow the first couple of months to patch it up, balance the game further and then get the PR/marketing team out there, selling something you know is quality.  I read somewhere that Stardock/GPG know they have a gem on their hands and if they really believe it and treat it like it is (not like how activition dropped support right after quake wars was released), I dont see how this game can fail to build its core of players to the proportions of starcraft and fill the niche that is a watchable e-sport in North America.

Just my 2 cents :p

2,345 views 12 replies
Reply #1 Top

I think Demigod will be more like TF2.  The rook will be doing the same thing in most games, regulus will be doing mines and snipe, etc.  Which isn't a bad thing, TF2 is a successful game and Demigod will be too.  I think demigod will be a great fun game but you won't see the type of strategy depth found in Starcraft.

 

Reply #2 Top

Just my 2 cents

I was thinking a few dollars

Reply #3 Top

I think we have to wait and see what kind of community we get size-wise and attitude-wise with this game before we start talking in this sort of depth how competition is going to be structured. 

The game would have to be really huge for the kind of measures you're talking about.  Right now I think it's optimistic to hope for something along the lines of Age of Empires 3: decent sized community, tournaments now and then, possible involvement in WCG, RTS league for clans, etc.

 

Blitz is also probably right about it being more like TF2, but hopefully not.  If each Demigod does essentially the same thing in each game, we're going to need a lot of Demigods for this game to be interesting.

Reply #4 Top

I think Demigod will be more like TF2. The rook will be doing the same thing in most games, regulus will be doing mines and snipe, etc.

I'll be surprised if it ends up that way.  Even with the unpolished lines we have now you see people building differently depending on team composition and opponents.  Once they balance the lines a bit and make multiple builds strong I think we'll see alot more variety in playstyle than something like TF2 allows.  From everything the Devs have been saying we have the low number of DGs we have specifically to allow those different playstyles to emerge.  Otherwise yah, let's just reskin Sedna 6 times :/

Reply #5 Top

Personally, i think that TF2 is successful is because valve supports it greatly, has the money to put into good marketing and their games dont have a very big learning curve, therefore, not only are they reaching the masses, they are not put off by the gameplay from the start.  That is the same with L4D, where they put 10mil into PR and marketing, gameplay is simple and updates are regular and exciting.

However, these games fall victim to the rock, paper, scissors type of balancing, making it dull to watch imo and frustrating to play.  By rock, paper, scissors balancing, im refering to: you kill this easily, but something kills you as easily, limiting one's effectiveness to the situation.  True balance, again imo, is being able to be effective in any situation but particularly effective in certain aspects of your class.  Not to a point where these are overpowered but gets better as; your ability to predict, timing, game knowledge and control compliment your skills to a degree that it seems like it.

I like how someone discribed the gameplay as 90% easy to learn but 10% hard to master, which would lead me to believe that this game has that crazy balance of mass appeal and sophisticated gameplay.  In TF2 suffers from simplicity that makes it predictable, therefore boring to watch, as opposed to starcraft.  Even then, in starcraft, if the other player has dominating micro technique, he could put himself in a winning position that was unexpected.  Bottom line, who wants to watch something if you know what is going to happen without a doubt.

damn, i just cant stop myself.  I appreciate you guys reading all that and trying to be productive in your post.

Reply #6 Top

Spectating is a great feature for Demigod for the reason you cited - observing folks who ragequit or the like. It would also be nice to have the option to watch a match as a neutral party.

Not sure about divvying up players into divisions. Do we really want to divide what could be a niche community? Does this encourage participation from new players or discourage them by virtue of layers of classification?

I could live without play-by-play commentary. I can figure out whats going on on my own, and the in-game audio is sufficient to me.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting WarlokLord, reply 6
Not sure about divvying up players into divisions. Do we really want to divide what could be a niche community? Does this encourage participation from new players or discourage them by virtue of layers of classification?

It's from my experience from competition in quake wars that teams were disbanding after being dominated to the point of being embaressed.  Although it seems like some teams just arnt cut out for competition, about 4-5 new teams fell victim to this fate, which is a large number when u started with 20 teams.  By season 3, we had about 11 teams.  If those 9 other teams had someone to play with relatively close to their skill level, im sure they would have sticked around, matured and then ready for the big leagues.

I know dividing a small community isnt a good a idea, but once it grows, just something to consider.

Reply #8 Top



I think if demigod can get a nice spectator mode going with features like being able to flip to certain ppl/areas on the fly, a tv mode where people join tv servers to watch the game and chat, that would build the mass appeal for the competitive scene.  People of all sorts of skill levels would love to watch tournament finals (provided its scheduled in the right time zone).  Also, people would hold back on the cheating as they are being watched and recorded.

 

This most of all is extremly important imo. Most of the other stuff is things that get created by a sucessfull comunity.

Reply #9 Top

I like your overall post, but how as mentioned above, whether or not they can even think about implementing this depends on how well it sells. Atm I really cant tell how many people will buy the game and how many people we will see online the first week. It could be 500+ or 2000+.

We will also have to see how the competitive community reacts to this game.

However, these games fall victim to the rock, paper, scissors type of balancing, making it dull to watch imo and frustrating to play.  By rock, paper, scissors balancing, im refering to: you kill this easily, but something kills you as easily, limiting one's effectiveness to the situation.  True balance, again imo, is being able to be effective in any situation but particularly effective in certain aspects of your class.  Not to a point where these are overpowered but gets better as; your ability to predict, timing, game knowledge and control compliment your skills to a degree that it seems like it.

I thought Starcraft had rock, paper, scissors type of balancing? Maybe im wrong its just I always thought rock, paper scissors balancing was what the competitive community wants.

Reply #10 Top

starcraft doesn't really have rps balancing, hydralisks usually suck vs marine and medics but in some situations they are awesome, Dragoons usually sucks vs Zerglings but in some situations they are totally awesome - it all depends on the situation for almost every unit and unit combo in starcraft thats why it is so cool. Wouldn't really call that rps balancing.

Reply #11 Top

I guess maybe it was people complaing about rps balancing rather than asking for it :)

Reply #12 Top

Starcraft is so interesting to watch and play because the counters are not very hard.  They're a lot harder than the counters in WC3, though, which I think takes soft-counter balance too far.

I've enjoyed games with hard counter systems (like the Age of Empires games), but I find that battles in games with softer systems are usually a lot more exciting because it's more about how you use your units and less about which units you have.

 

Of course this is all irrelevant to Demigod since there isn't really a countersystem for anything.