omfg p2p sucks, why couldn't stardock learn from wc3 and go with a client server model?

Vesuvius

Join Date 04/2009

+13

omfg p2p sucks, why couldn't stardock learn from wc3 and go with a client server model?

You are no longer allowed to bitch about peer-to-peer.

This page can be navigated to from the official blizzard warcraft 3 website.

Here is a quote from that link:

Does Warcraft III have a Client/Server Model?
No. Due to the amount of units and the number of players in a game of Warcraft III, it is not possible to implement a straight Client/Server architecture as in Diablo II. We are using a variation of the peer-to-peer model that allows us to eliminate some of the abuses found in StarCraft games.

The problem is not peer-to-peer. Peer-to-peer is implemented in nearly every RTS in existence, warcraft 3 is an example where it is implemented very effectively and successfully. The problem is the implementation of peer-to-peer in demigod. I'm sure someone will nitpick that warcraft 3 is using a variation on the model, but that is exactly what I mean by the problem being the implementation(the basic idea is still the same in wc3, it's just better implemented).

I will now procede to laugh at anyone else who bitches. Actually I was laughing already, but I've been getting diminishing returns on that so I figured I'd enlighten the rest of you.

demigod

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So, when will they be in?

So that I might consider buying the game?

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Quoting Endnuen,

reply 1

So, when will they be in?

So that I might consider buying the game?

They're busting their tails on it; go check out the Dev journals and watch the video diaries to get a glimpse at what all of the entails. Long story short: When you see less connectivity griping in forums and people start flaming more about stuff being over powered and general multiplayer trash talking commences (like in every healthy game), then you know the game is up to it's full awesome status

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"In Warcraft and Starcraft, the players connect to each other through the host of the game."

Based on this definition, there is no way on god's green earth that Warcraft 3 is Peer 2 Peer. Its the complete opposite of P2P. Its client/server pure and simple.

Its not a variation on client/server, its not "slightly P2P", its JUST CLIENT/SERVER END OF STORY.

It doesn't matter that the server is not hosted by Blizzard or whoever, the host is still the server. It doesn't matter that the host isn't running a machine that says "server", running Windows server 2003, as a dedicated server, he IS STILL THE SERVER. ITS A CLIENT/SERVER SYSTEM.

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The proof of it being Server to client comes in the form of custom kick (visual custom kick, if you host, DL it, learn it, love it). With custom kick a host can sniff the players IPs and then close the connection to that IP. This forces that player from the game. He's gone and people can go on with the game. So if someone's being a douche, feeding intentionally, won't shut up, breaking the rules, etc you as the host can take care of the problem.

Is that an internal mod or an external program? If it's a mod there may be a check involved to see if you're the host. If it's external there may be something else going on(it is a modified system after all). For example, wc3 may be attempting to send the information one way but routing through the host if it is unable to do so successfully, making the host like the proxy servers stardock is currently planning. I don't know if this is actually the case but my point is you can't deduce the system from that program alone.

I'm more inclined to trust blizzard about what system they use than anyone on this forum(frogboy included) and blizzard's official WC3 FAQ says that WC3 uses a variation on the peer to peer system(it is strongly implied that the reason for this is to correct the hacking problems that were in starcraft). What the details of that variation are is anyone's guess but all players connecting to each other is the defining characteristic of p2p so I don't think they could possibly be only connected through the host.

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Custom kick is an external third party program. Shadowfrench's custom kick (which no longer works) was just a program you can, sniff peoples IPs, and kick the person you want gone.

Now that that doesnt work you need visual custom kick which is an amazing little program. You still kick people via the same method but you can do all sorts of other crap with it. It'll type in the game mode for you, you can have it name the game for you, it can remove the countdown (5,4,3,2,1 when you click launch game) so the game just starts instantly. All sorts of nifty little things for the host. The program is technically against the rules to use in an actual WC3 game but they don't support custom maps and honestly IMO if you host a dota game and don't have it you're an idiot.

You can not believe me, you can trust whatever you want. I know how it works better than most. It's plain as day and completely testable by any person in the world that owns a copy of WC3 and TFT. Infact I'll do you one better and run an experiment tonight. I've never tried to kick the host as a joiner. I know for a fact you can't kick other players in the game but if you can kick the host as a joiner and use that to drop from the game that is 100000% case closed. I'll give it a shot tonight.

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Did you test it? I don't think that would let you reasonably conclude that wc3 is client/server though as the host could serve important functions, it is after all, supposed to be a variation on the peer to peer model. If you really want to test it you need to see if there's traffic coming from the non host IPs.

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There are other evidence:

Whenever there is a lag spike, the client will run the simulation at increased speed to match the host's state; there are never desyncs because the host state is always correct.

There is also the issue of delay: the host never has delay beyond the net_lag specified by WC3 while other players will always have net_lag + latency.

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Quoting NwExilon,

reply 7

As a host for my DotA mates, I can say with 100% certainty that WC3 is server to client with the host acting as the server. The viability of custom kick is the absolute proof that the system is not peer to peer since none of the other players have any input whatsoever.

There are other evidence:

Whenever there is a lag spike, the client will run the simulation at increased speed to match the host's state; there are never desyncs because the host state is always correct.

There is also the issue of delay: the host never has delay beyond the net_lag specified by WC3 while other players will always have net_lag + latency.

Completely true. People will complain about delay from time to time when my connection starts acting up. I never see any delay ever because I'm the end all be all. Everyone comes through me for their information which is never wrong as far as the game is concerned.

I did test CK as a joiner and it doesn't even show anyone elses IP which kind of helps prove the theory anyways.

Also the ONLY person that has to configure their router is the host. No other person does for anything. This would kind of imply he's on a different level as far as the network is concerned.

Their website might say one thing. And if they want to call it a variation of P2P thats their thing. But the evidence is exceedingly overwhelming that its actually a client to server system.

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