What would have sold more copies of Demigod (and may yet still)...

I'd like to respond to several issues about the launch of Demigod.

First things first, I absolutely love the game. It's a chess match and brilliantly designed from a gameplay standpoint. It's "my game" now until I get to see how Starcraft 2 actually plays.

It's also the first game that has pulled me away from WoW and my 4+ years playing Warcraft 3. It's that good.

However, I have some issues I'd like to aim at Stardock because I love them but I think they need to hear the brutal truth.

So without further ado, here goes...

1.) Demigod is a magnificent RTS that was implemented poorly. I appreciate that Frogboy and Stardock "own this" and that's why I'm still playing. They accept responsibility and give credit where it's due, GPG for a great core game w/ awesome gameplay value.

2.) Your DRM approach is kind of a zero sum game. While it is true folks like me do not like restrictive DRM hurdles, I'm not sure your lassez faire approach actually helped your paying customers. It does seem to some extent the jerks who pirated the game (yes, you are jerks and freeloaders) have at least in the short run, impaired the experience of paying customers upon launch of the game. Your stance is that you will sell no more or less copies of the game with such an approach. Maybe that's true, but it obviously has not been beneficial for people who actually paid for the game and has probably been detrimental.

3.) No matter what, we gamers will put up with a lot of crapola and an outright broken game if at it's core it is a good game. Restrictive DRM features probably wouldn't have hurt you had the launch of game been better.

4.) Getting to the "headline" point, I'd wager that what would have sold more copies of your game would have been a solid, perfect launch to Demigod with more DRM issues that would have forced people who wanted to pay the game to actually pay for it. There's two reasons I believe this is the case. The first is the simple fact that games succeed when you can tell your buddy that the new game you are playing is awesome and when he or she tries it out, it actually delivers. They get hooked and then they go on to tell their buddies. The second is that you have stated that you wanted to avoid the hassle of restrictive DRM measures and therefore avoid getting the reputation of game that hassles gamers. Well, limitind hassle is a good thing. But guess what, there's a huge hassle with this game because you didn't design and implement the multiplayer connection framework in a way that was user friendly. All this port forwarding, DMZing, and Monk guides are a good demonstration of massive hassle when it comes to jumping into games. Now, I will admit I can get MP to work but it is still a hassle and it still takes a lot of time. Frankly, had you made a DRM restrictive game with a perfect pvp launch you would have sold tons more copies than the pirate friendly, broken launch that you have offered.

5.) All hope is not lost. But you have to fix muliplayer on all fronts to the point where it is flawless and without hassle or unecesessary slowness. You also have to fix the whole "favor item" issue as well as how the pantheon leaderboard works. Then, people can start to strongly recommend this game to friends. But until then, a lot of us will be ashamed to recommend it knowing that they will encounter a lot of the "broken" aspects of actually getting a game going online.

6.) Going forward, be sure to fix what is broken before adding new content. People are already lusting for new Demigods but the last thing you want to do is blow your content wad and leave people with a broken game.

7.) There's one company that sells lot's of games and still has 10 year old + games on the Walmart shelves that sit along other popular new releases.. Only one company. Blizzard. They are not that innovative and to be honest they are jerks to their customers. Massive jerks in a lot of ways. They also have lots of ways to "get your money" and a fair share of methods to crack down on pirating, cracking, and cheating. However, they always make things work, either out of the box or eventually.

8.) That brings me to my final point, thought this is not feedback or a recommendation but rather a heads up. The point is that there are a lot of us that will pay a monthly subscription fee for an online game that runs well, has excellent gameplay, flawless execution, and ongoing content updates. The model for this is MMO's but I think think this could go well for an RTS that is constantly introducing new maps, units, heroes, and abilities/skills/spells. Basically,  a lot of us are looking for an evolving experience and we are willing to pay for top notch content and implementation (servers, updates) and so forth. As it is, I feel I got my money's worth for Demigod but it needs to be a lot better but if it were I'd be one willing to pay for ongoing service.

 

 

9,875 views 26 replies
Reply #2 Top

hes saying that most people are willing to pay a monthly fee for a flawless game i think >_>  

 

and you pointed out some obvious and covered territory already eternal silence

Reply #3 Top

The game will continue to sell copy its fun , they just released too early imo. I dont know what the OP is talking about but here are the things that would have sold more copy.

 

1)Multiplayer actually working as intended at release.

2)No lan feature at release perhaps a few months later.

3)Game being feature complete with clans , community tools , pantheon working ,etc.

 

The game was released under developed and under tested now they have to sell it that way as they finish the product.

Reply #4 Top

Personally I had absolutely no idea the game had come out until I saw it on a piracy website.  I don't know a whole lot of people that have really heard of it or knew it came out.  Stardock should push HD gameplay videos to popular sites, it looks very impressive and will easily recruit people into buying it.  Then Stardock will have more money for game features and shit.

Reply #5 Top

Quoting droper66, reply 3
The game will continue to sell copy its fun , they just released too early imo. I dont know what the OP is talking about but here are the things that would have sold more copy.

 

1)Multiplayer actually working as intended at release.

2)No lan feature at release perhaps a few months later.

3)Game being feature complete with clans , community tools , pantheon working ,etc.

 

The game was released under developed and under tested now they have to sell it that way as they finish the product.
End of droper66's quote

 

Basically what I was saying is that had they released a well implemented game (you mentioned the key things need fixing) then they would have created such desire for the game that they could have instituted anti-piracy measures that would have forced people to actually pay for the game. In turn, more revenue from sales would support the game going forward so that paying customers would get a better ongoing game experience.

Where this isn't "covered material" as one poster put it, is that I think that I think this haphazard release was intimately tied with the attitude that they weren't going to take extensive anti-piracy measures. Most people aren't really linking the two and I am.

What I'm saying is better game w/ more barriers to entry would generate more sales than a game that doesn't work as well as it should but tries to be "friendly" by avoiding DRM measures. I further contend that legitimate paying customers are hurt by the piracy even if the company itself isn't.

Well anyways, I had a few beers last night...so I wrote the OP...for better or worse.

Reply #6 Top

Interesting stuff.. But I dissagree on the DRM part of you story. The problem is not with the game being downloaded illegally that often. I think that with more restrictive DRM the game would have been cracked and downloaded just as much as it has now. 

The problem was that Stardock underestimated the number of people trying to use the game, mostly illegal, which caused problems from the get go, worsened by the game being released too early at one place.

I suppose you can say that the betatest had been too limited to properly test the whole game and netcode for a worldwide release.

 

As for updates and stuff, I remember Stardock saying that the first year of updates will be free of charge (maybe some more after this fiasco ;) ). Major updates released after that might cost some money again? 

I'm against a model where you pay monthly for a game, as it forces you to play the game at least x amount of hours to get your money's worth out of it.. I'd rather just pay for specific content or updates I'm interested in and can use whenever I like.

Reply #7 Top

You're wrong on the DRM. It's a long term approach. The people who pirated the game would have done so regardless of DRM.

Reply #8 Top

I wouldnt have just pirated this game if it had invasive DRM on it.

Apart from making a stand, I dont want that DRM crap infecting my computer and thats why I would download a cracked version.

 

I dont think invasive DRM makes much difference to piracy. Someone will crack it in a day or two and repackage it up for an easy to download and install file.

I must day I find it entertaining to see someone advocating DRM though on a game forum.

Reply #9 Top

7.) There's one company that sells lot's of games and still has 10 year old + games on the Walmart shelves that sit along other popular new releases.. Only one company. Blizzard. They are not that innovative and to be honest they are jerks to their customers. Massive jerks in a lot of ways. They also have lots of ways to "get your money" and a fair share of methods to crack down on pirating, cracking, and cheating. However, they always make things work, either out of the box or eventually.
End of quote

Blizzard actually doesn't use any copy protection on their games, except for needing the legit version to play online.  Sound familiar?

Reply #10 Top

8.) That brings me to my final point, thought this is not feedback or a recommendation but rather a heads up. The point is that there are a lot of us that will pay a monthly subscription fee for an online game that runs well, has excellent gameplay, flawless execution, and ongoing content updates. The model for this is MMO's but I think think this could go well for an RTS that is constantly introducing new maps, units, heroes, and abilities/skills/spells. Basically, a lot of us are looking for an evolving experience and we are willing to pay for top notch content and implementation (servers, updates) and so forth. As it is, I feel I got my money's worth for Demigod but it needs to be a lot better but if it were I'd be one willing to pay for ongoing service.
End of quote

and i would risk saying there are a lot of us that wouldn't.

Reply #11 Top

Here's what would have ultimately sold more copies and circumvented a lot of these issues:

A lot more time spent in development and testing.

 

It's as simple as that.

Reply #12 Top

Quoting iNs4n3PT, reply 10


...and i would risk saying there are a lot of us that wouldn't.
End of iNs4n3PT's quote

You are right. There's a lot that wouldn't. But at some point there's going to be a game company that offers an RTS with ongoing service above what you have seen so far in RTS games and will charge a subscription fee of some sort. It's going to be a gold mine.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting Moonlapse, reply 9


Blizzard actually doesn't use any copy protection on their games, except for needing the legit version to play online.  Sound familiar?
End of Moonlapse's quote

First off, Blizzard had implemented physical "CD in the drive" checks but that is gone now. However, that was a form of anti-piracy and copy protection. Whether it worked or not, I don't know. They've removed it. 

What Blizzard has done though is make it's online service so good that you are compelled to buy a legitimate copy to enjoy that just so you have a playable key on b-net. That's kind of what I'm getting at.

Perhaps I'm just stating the obvious that quality = more sales and perhaps that doesn't need to be said. However, there's just something that doesn't settle well with me that a game had, according to the lead publisher, 18,000 legit accounts and 102,000 bad ones. That's beyond just "a few bad apples who would have pirated the game anyway" into a whole other territory of bad implementation.

That sort of piracy to legitimate user ratio is just beyond my comprehension.

Maybe I'm just confusing DRM (Digital Rights Management?) with some common sense protection and incentives to try to encourage people to actually buy the game.

I'm all for "14 day limited free trials" and all that. It just seems something could have been done.

Am I that naive to think the gaming community is not just filled with swindlers and cheats to the point that they vastly outnumber responsible individuals who actually pay for what takes a lot of money and hard work to develop?

5 to 1 ?

 

Reply #14 Top

Quoting PossiblyImpossible, reply 11
Here's what would have ultimately sold more copies and circumvented a lot of these issues:

A lot more time spent in development and testing.

 

It's as simple as that.
End of PossiblyImpossible's quote

Actually, I understand the game was working very well in BETA. The testing just didn't count for as much traffic as it got (due to piracy for first few days), and connection issues due to BETA people being a more tech savvy and being located mostly in the US.

Reply #15 Top

I think some people have completely forgotten the World of Warcraft launch and its first month.

Reply #16 Top

You are right. There's a lot that wouldn't. But at some point there's going to be a game company that offers an RTS with ongoing service above what you have seen so far in RTS games and will charge a subscription fee of some sort. It's going to be a gold mine.
End of quote

 

You should go check out BattleForge. That games awful. But apparently people are still willing to pay for it. Course... people still buy Wii's and crap out 170 for DSi's so... watcha gonna do ya know.

Reply #17 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 15
I think some people have completely forgotten the World of Warcraft launch and its first month.
End of Frogboy's quote

This is why i'm hanging in Frogboy. This game is gold. I love the deathmatch style RTS and I'm having a blast with it. I'm hoping more for what the game could be and not faulting it for the small fixable problems its having now.

Reply #18 Top

<3  this game even now. When the connection problems and bugs will be fixed, this game will be very, very good. I am impressed, the maps are great, game is very well balanced and fun to play.

Reply #19 Top

Quoting dyingsole, reply 17

This is why i'm hanging in Frogboy. This game is gold. I love the deathmatch style RTS and I'm having a blast with it. I'm hoping more for what the game could be and not faulting it for the small fixable problems its having now.
End of dyingsole's quote

I can't say the problems didn't leave me in a really bad mood, they did - spending hours in lobby to be able to get into a single game was painful. Yet, things have been working much better (for me, at least) and im now imagining how much better this game can get - more DGs, balancing, etc and i just KNOW it will rock!

Reply #20 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 15
I think some people have completely forgotten the World of Warcraft launch and its first month.
End of Frogboy's quote

I was there at WoW's rocky launch and I was there in Blackwing Lair and AQ40 when they were having server issues before they moved everything to new hardware. Basically the game was wildly more popular than they ever dreamed or prepared for.

Are you saying that's the case with Demigod? I hope so. I want nothing but the best for the game. Like I said, people will put up with a lot of broken stuff if at its heart it's a good game.

But 2 things I want to say about Blizzard and WoW:

1.) WoW charges subscription fees and for that paying customers get an evolving top notch game.

2.) Despite WoW's hiccups, Blizz is well known for releasing polished games with reliably multiplayer matchmaking. Starcraft and WC3 are testament to that.

Don't get me wrong, Mr. Wardell, I want nothing but the best for SD games and Demigod. If you can weather this launch the same way Blizz weathered WoW's launch then we will all be in for lots of good gaming for a long time.

 

 

Reply #21 Top

- DRM would not have made any difference - except to cost Stardock more money.. It would have been cracked anyway...

 

- Pay 2 play subscription is not viable for this game.  MMO games have much, much more content than this game will ever have. There is no dialog, quests, stories, big environments, NPC's or any of that in this game.  For a full retail priced game (in stores) I expect quite a bit of free content, new demigods and maps.

 

- Wc3 stayed around for so long because of it's modding ability and because it was supported MANY years after release, they kept releasing patches - free patches - 5 or more years after the game was released.  Demigod has very poor modding support and I haven't seen anything indicating that this will change.

 

- If this was on Steam it would sell way more copies.

Reply #22 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 15
I think some people have completely forgotten the World of Warcraft launch and its first month.
End of Frogboy's quote

 

I think some people have forgotten that WoW was not Blizzards first, second, or third game.  Their early games with the real Blizzard team were top notch in terms of quality and support.

 

WoW definitely had issues in the first month, but they also had a huge amount of players.

 

Anyhow I'm sure you guys will sort the issues out soon!  Once you get team joining in, and multiplayer working properly this game will be much better.  Personally I think you should look into letting players rejoin a game if they disconnect as well, the same player can join the same game to play the demigod they were when they disconnected.

Reply #23 Top

Contrary to what it says in the OP, restrictive DRM features would not have helped the launch of the game whatsoever.  All the pirates who pirated Demigod as it was released, would have pirated just as easily, just as fast, and in the exact same way, if it had shipped with restrictive DRM.  Those 'points' in the OP that claim it wouldn't have happened like that with restrictive DRM are invalid.

Reply #24 Top

I guess it's a good idea to pay for extra content...I just wish they'd just do expansion packs or something, I don't like to buy things via internet. Oh well, it will all work out :grin:

Reply #25 Top

Quoting Eternal_Silence, reply 12


at some point there's going to be a game company that offers an RTS with ongoing service above what you have seen so far in RTS games and will charge a subscription fee of some sort. It's going to be a gold mine.
End of Eternal_Silence's quote

Don't be so sure.  There are a couple of non-MMO games that were promoted as if they were MMO's and included monthly MMO fees that were totally unwarranted for the non-MMO games they were attached to. Ie: Hellgate: London; Fury.  Those games are both now completely dead and offline. 

It goes to show that just because a company slaps a monthly fee on a game that cannot justify one, and says it will be worth it, it does not mean that consumers are going to be bamboozled into paying for it.

Monthly fees require very substantial reasons for consumers to be shelling out said monthly fees.  Otherwise, they will vote with their wallets and not buy the game in the first place, nor pay the monthly fees.