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Erebus balance discussion

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Erebus balance discussion

from Demigod Forums

I hate to complain and whine but I've got this nagging feeling there's something not right with Erebus. As a disclaimer, I will state that I've played Rook, then Regulus, then Oak almost exclusively and my perspective is biased from the view of using those three heroes. However, I'm also taking into account various team-mates using various DG's vs. Erebus.

I don't play Erebus and I don't wish to (although I may start just to learn how he works). As an archetype, he just doesn't appeal to me.

My premise is that I think Erebus is overpowered, but only in the right hands. I've seen some very bad Erebus players and when played badly there's nothing too scary about him. However, when played well he seems to be out of the league of any other Demigod in the game.

"But, this game is about SKILL and any DG is overpowered in a skilled player's hands," people might say. My response is yes and no. While it's true that all the DG's will shine in the hands of a skilled player, Erebus is a step beyond.

Every class has a weakness or a counter:

Rooks are slow, a healing Sedna doesn't do alot of damage, Regulus can't really heal himself, after a while QoT's shield doesn't scale, Oak is kind of weak early, mediocre midgame, UCB can be countered by healing/health regen thru his dot, and so on.

However, in my experience, it doesn't seem like Erebus has a counter or an inherent weakness. He doesn't seem to be mana deprived, squishy, slow, or ineffective where you can just ignore him. If things don't go his way he can just mist or port out of harm's way.

"But Erebus is not that great vs. buildings early on". If that's his balance, give me a break. Yes, taking buildings down is important but the most important aspects of the game are hero kills (because of the gold factor) and map control (because of the War Score). If you have lots of kills and a good war score, then buildings become a minor nuisance vs. a geared out/levelled up hero that is backed up by pults and giants.

Is this a whine post? Maybe. Pardon me if it is.

However, one of two things is true. Either Erebus is balanced and I'm whining. This means he has vulnerabilities and weaknesses that I just don't know about. Enlighten me. Or, my complaints are well warranted. Balance him.

"Well, Eternal, you must suck". Maybe, who knows. However, it's not me that's usually dying and feeding the Erebus. It's my team mates. "Well, then your team mates suck." The thing is they don't seem to suck as much when an Erebus is not around. Once that Erebus has four or five farm kills under his belt, he's got enough gold to start leveraging his seemingly overpoweredness even more.

"Well what do you want?"

First, if Erebus is balanced and has some as of yet untold weaknesses, enlighten me. I'd love to be able just play this game knowing that every DG has weaknesses and vulnerabilities. I've scoured the "what do I do vs. Erebus" threads and I've not yet found one useable or reliable strategy or tactic. The advice basically amounts to "run away, if you can" and "2v1" the Erebus (like that's somehow reasonable).

Second, if Erebus is not balanced then I want the Devs to take a good look at him and figure out how to bring him back to the realm of reasonable balance. How, they do that, I don't care. I just want to know that my team mates are not fodder for his piggy bank or that I have to wait until level 15 to square off on him.

"QQ more noob, blah blah".

Yeah, I'm crying, hollering, whining, carping, complaining, kvetching, grumbling, and griping. But that doesn't change what I see and what I see is that game after game a well played Erebus is the most dominating hero in the game by far.

Bottom line: I want to just add my voice to the concern over the balance of this particular hero. If I am wrong, teach me. I'd love to improve my game. However, if I'm right I just want the Devs to know that there is some concern out here.

Once these connectivity and MP issues are mapped out, they need to revisit balance.

Edit ============

Frogboy:

"Well, we have on deck another update for tomorrow fresh from GPG:

· Lord Erebus: Bite's Mana Cost increased, Damage decreased, Armor Reduction decreased"

===============

I'm glad to know I'm not smoking crack.

demigod
21,650 views 37 replies
Reply #26 from Demigod Forums Top

Erebrus is a great character... IMO very hard to destroy...

His speed is high making him a great hero hunter, he can support a full army of minions at all times due to his skill. Although the minions are weak they can be boosted HP wise and dmg wise with items, and can tank towers. Hes a general so I think those are fine.

His bite is deadly.... does good dmg hit + heals erebrus.... Has quick cooldown and obviously negates the bite dmg amount done to him.


Ive done very well as rook lately in all games, only lost one due to AI at start (rook ai = retarded). The game I lost I was with a new Reg, and he wasn't that good, but we fought 2 erebrus... and woah we were wrecked so badly.... the speed of them to dance around prison and the ability to stay fully healed with bites, mist, their priests.... if they walked away with some HP they were back and ready to fight quite quickly....


I hope they get fixed a little, ATM a good erebrus and TB are the ones I fear a lot.

Reply #27 from Demigod Forums Top

Well, here's some support of my theory via GPG:

"Well, we have on deck another update for tomorrow fresh from GPG:

· Lord Erebus: Bite's Mana Cost increased, Damage decreased, Armor Reduction decreased"

 

:fuzzy: :fuzzy: :fuzzy: :fuzzy: :fuzzy: :fuzzy: :fuzzy: :fuzzy:

The Political Machine 2024
Reply #28 from Demigod Forums Top

erebus is a very powerful dude  he does alot of dmg and can hold his own most of the time  he does have a weakness  he is weak vs a huge army off mobs and the best character to fight hm isn't sedna  or ub

it is oak  spirits and minions  hurt him alot  oak has shield and slow down/stun   and a aoe booster ability

oak is the best to fight erebus  but if you  are fighting a pro with any demi then the most likely out come is a lose  there ios alot of builds for every dude but the main one is spirits   most builds use spirits as euither the main attack force or as a power booster

so i surrgest going with oak  espically if you fighting  erebus  so stop bitvching and fight him

Reply #29 from Demigod Forums Top

Lol, using Minion with Oak? Hello? Have you forgotten about Mist and the big AoE stun from Erebus?

If anything, it's Oak assassin style with Shield that *might* be a pain for Erebus *if* you catch him unprepared, but otherwise he'll wipe the floor with you easily.

The coming nerf will actually give a chance for Assassins to kill Erebus now. Minion builds still will be nearly useless against him, TB and QoT, but they own everything else late game anyway.

Reply #30 from Demigod Forums Top

The change is a bit much, but since the fixes to Erebus came at the last minute of beta, its logical he is a victim of bad balancing already.

 

I admit I am a Erebus player, but I have been drawn to playign him since day one for his lore/apperance more than his playstyle.

 

At times, I can kind of see how he can be alot to deal with. A good Erebus with a decent mana pool with Bat swarm + bite can deliver more damage than players expect and often cripple someone who thought they were safe. Bite has a good ratio of transfer as well, so it increases his effectiveness at his play style.

 

But thats the problem with Erebus, is that IS his playstyle. Hes a general and has minions but only his scroll minikns are worth anything useful, the nightwalkers are essentially tower distractions and poor pnes at that. His requirment to be in melee for anything meaningful + his crap structure damage kind of forces him into the bite+batswarm+hide in mist kind of play style he has. Even his character description is that of a low hp god who DEPENDS on life draining.

I'll admit, I have played some newbs/idiots/call them whatever. Many have died to me in a attrition battle, went to harass another spot, I snuck behind, batswarmed into them while there fighting, bite them and meleed them down quickly, followed by "Player has left the game". At the same time, I have played against Regulus ( and i usually consider him "easier" to kill) who constantly tricked me with mines or through the damn mines right on top of me, decimating me and killing me shortly after. Sedna is a beast when played right and only with a full mana bar can my bites keep me up if she has minions and brains, which often allows me to push her off/run rather than outright kill her.

I can see why some change may have been needed, but I have already had my ass handed to me in a few games by people who outplayed me on a character lvl and a team level and this is without broken artifacts like ashandor or father ring etc.


A minor change to bite or Mist would be understandable but nerfing Bite across the board without realizing how much Erebus is dependant on it just means he will come out on the shorter end of the stick more times than not. This will appease people in the early game scenario where a dumb player is now given more leverage against Erebus in a 1 vs 1 but in the late game it will effect how well Erebus can do his job. In all honestly, they could have just removed the snare and lowered the armor reduction but instead seemed to trim it all the way down.

He has some of the lowest stats, he has one real nuke or damaging move thats a melee range move. He has no ranged attack (Battle swarms damage is hardly a viable attack) his minions are underwhelming and he one of the crappiest at tower/structure killing.

 

Just when players I have been fighting have been getting better and forcing me to rethink approaches, the nerf bat steps in and while I could understand some very simple tweaks, this is like knee jerk reaction to bite (lowered across the board?) rather than saying "Ok, we built this guy around one bloody move....hmmm"

We'll see how it plays when it drops I guess.

Reply #31 from Demigod Forums Top

Not a bad post Node202.  I pretty much agree.

I've been playin Erebus lately and I do think bite is probably a bit OP but for me the solution would be a little longer cooldown.  This would prevent me from doing my uber-spam kill of

- teleport into existing 1vs1 battle
- bite
- sleep (combo gives teammates chance to move in)
- bite
- chase/bat swarm if they're still getting away

It pretty much completely drains my mana but there doesn't seem to be much an opponent can do to stop it.  If the CD on bite was longer it wouldn't be quite so overpowered-ly potent.  Sucks that they nerfed everything BUT the CD...  I mean they act like they're just nerfing 3 things(armor/damage/mana costs) but it's actually 4 (+ the amount healed).

Reply #32 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Node202, reply 5
A bunch of text
End of Node202's quote

Every demi-god is based around one move when you're playing them at their best. (sedna = heal, QoT = shield, UB = spit, rook = towers) That's not erebus exclusive but simply erebus had the best move to be based around. You have to admit an effective 1800 damage PLUS slow PLUS extra damage from reduced armour PLUS it being the most mana effcient move in the game, was a little much.

You said you were beaten by better people, that's fine but that's not the issue. When faced with people up to a certain skill level erebus simply becomes a demi-god you can ONLY 2v1. That's not right as the other two that require 2v1 are generally sedna and QoT who won't be able to kill you 1v1 in a straight out fight. They need to wear you down while erebus will simply just kill you in the first fight between you two. The health gained from bite is so significant that he can extend himself better then any other demigod. (That's including the fact oak can shield + tele scroll out.)

As for his minions also consider erebus by default gets 2 of them for free. No other general gets that, then consider the damage they do when bite someone. That's where they start to get significant and add to that they're free! Oak has to spend mana on ward and sedna / QOT have to spend mana to summon, erebus gets them for being near things when they die. Being so easy and cheap to get they end up being the ideal mine destroyers as them dieing isn't a problem and you could send them after demigods near towers as again, them dieing isn't significant. Add to that you can max their number upgrade if you simply don't upgrade mist, which you only need 1 point in to get most of the advantages of it.

So to re-cap erebus gets most of the best moves in the game and gets the most disposable minions in the game. I'm surprised he was even put into release like he was. (If you really want me to go on I can point out everything mist can be used to dodge and the fact bat swarm acts like a free warpstone which costs 5500g.)

Reply #33 from Demigod Forums Top

Xinoxlx do you honestly belive nightwalkers are af any use at all? please try to use them and tell me what you find out.

They are nothing compared to the other's generals minions.

 

Plus, yes Erebus is a general BUT due to his high mobility with batswarm his minions are always somewhere else on the map, they don't have the speed or the ability to stay with him, really devs imho have to promote erebus as an assassin and remove his minions at once.

Reply #34 from Demigod Forums Top

I don't know what world you live in, but the Rolly Pollies are awesome.

Reply #35 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting kurjak82, reply 8
Xinoxlx do you honestly belive nightwalkers are af any use at all? please try to use them and tell me what you find out.

They are nothing compared to the other's generals minions.

 Plus, yes Erebus is a general BUT due to his high mobility with batswarm his minions are always somewhere else on the map, they don't have the speed or the ability to stay with him, really devs imho have to promote erebus as an assassin and remove his minions at once.
End of kurjak82's quote

Well lets see,,,

Shamblers collide too easily and will not attack a tower if directly told to.

Yeti's take 4-5 points to be worth it which could be used in better skills.

Oak's minions are flying meaning, much like angels they suck for damage and they can't get rid of mines.

Yes I do use erebus' minions alot, the fact they're dispensable is their greatest strength. You can use them to chase demi-gods who are trying to run away to use HoL. Or simply send 10 on them onto a person with no aoe like sedna or UB. (post mortem isn't very good aoe and ooze makes him lose health so it's win - win.)

I have to turn the question around, have YOU actually used them, or did you think damage was the only use for them?

You're right, they're nothing like other generals minions, they're actually useful.

Reply #36 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Xinoxlx, reply 10

Quoting kurjak82, reply 8Xinoxlx do you honestly belive nightwalkers are af any use at all? please try to use them and tell me what you find out.

They are nothing compared to the other's generals minions.

 Plus, yes Erebus is a general BUT due to his high mobility with batswarm his minions are always somewhere else on the map, they don't have the speed or the ability to stay with him, really devs imho have to promote erebus as an assassin and remove his minions at once.
Well lets see,,,

Shamblers collide too easily and will not attack a tower if directly told to.

Yeti's take 4-5 points to be worth it which could be used in better skills.

Oak's minions are flying meaning, much like angels they suck for damage and they can't get rid of mines.

Yes I do use erebus' minions alot, the fact they're dispensable is their greatest strength. You can use them to chase demi-gods who are trying to run away to use HoL. Or simply send 10 on them onto a person with no aoe like sedna or UB. (post mortem isn't very good aoe and ooze makes him lose health so it's win - win.)

I have to turn the question around, have YOU actually used them, or did you think damage was the only use for them?

You're right, they're nothing like other generals minions, they're actually useful.
End of Xinoxlx's quote

 

 

i have to agree with xin on this one i do use walkers when im the lord of darkness  but i only every get the first up soo i have 6  they keep mobs off me and can stop most demis hp regen  so there easier to kill which is a nice bonus i havn't tried playing a full gen erebus  but he would proberly own

there good for many things and i find spirits are better then walkers on maps with alot of holes in plus if u go minion build they do a fuck load of dmg  i have actually sent them on one demi and just watched them kill him he couldn't even run away

but i would like all minions to get speed boost equal to there masters  like if u have  +50% speed  they will too

Reply #37 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Xinoxlx, reply 7

Quoting Node202, reply 5A bunch of text
Every demi-god is based around one move when you're playing them at their best. (sedna = heal, QoT = shield, UB = spit, rook = towers) That's not erebus exclusive but simply erebus had the best move to be based around. You have to admit an effective 1800 damage PLUS slow PLUS extra damage from reduced armour PLUS it being the most mana effcient move in the game, was a little much.

You said you were beaten by better people, that's fine but that's not the issue. When faced with people up to a certain skill level erebus simply becomes a demi-god you can ONLY 2v1. That's not right as the other two that require 2v1 are generally sedna and QoT who won't be able to kill you 1v1 in a straight out fight. They need to wear you down while erebus will simply just kill you in the first fight between you two. The health gained from bite is so significant that he can extend himself better then any other demigod. (That's including the fact oak can shield + tele scroll out.)

As for his minions also consider erebus by default gets 2 of them for free. No other general gets that, then consider the damage they do when bite someone. That's where they start to get significant and add to that they're free! Oak has to spend mana on ward and sedna / QOT have to spend mana to summon, erebus gets them for being near things when they die. Being so easy and cheap to get they end up being the ideal mine destroyers as them dieing isn't a problem and you could send them after demigods near towers as again, them dieing isn't significant. Add to that you can max their number upgrade if you simply don't upgrade mist, which you only need 1 point in to get most of the advantages of it.

So to re-cap erebus gets most of the best moves in the game and gets the most disposable minions in the game. I'm surprised he was even put into release like he was. (If you really want me to go on I can point out everything mist can be used to dodge and the fact bat swarm acts like a free warpstone which costs 5500g.)
End of Xinoxlx's quote

 

1) Not every demi god is based around one move exactly how you say. For instance, the beats Spit is a harassing and supplemental move, but his stun/drain and his bestial rage are ways to increase and exceed spits dps. Sedna has heal which in theory increase her damage simply by allowing her to stay alive and fight, but she has pounce i believe as well. Rook has hammer slam as main dps, but has a ranged stun, the tower dps etc. Erebus is tethered to bite. Bite is ALL of his DPS save for melee attacks. Bat swarm is not a damage move for gods (it does well for creeps) in any effective way unless you swarm into someone whos going to die for sure. Not trying to mix words or argue, but just saying, Eerbus is very dependant on bite for his DPS, and coincidentally because of his natural stats, for his surivial in melee, they only effective place he can be.

 

2) Not sure where your getting 1800 damage from. Bite is 900 damage every 7 seconds. Do you mean two bites? Forgive me here.

 

3)Your idea about queen and Sedna only applies if you can out run them. I have been killed by Sednas when ever she had decent movment speed to go with her suriviability. Much like Erebus now, She can force a dark side god to leave her and a flag alone simply through attrition. The catch is the dark side doesn't have a good that can heal, only shield- and you know how popular the queen is.

 

4)His minions are a joke. Their DPS really is crap and their armor/life is a joke. I almost always get coven for the 8-10 "stronger" ones and as someone else mentioned, when they are not keeping up with me, they are dying. The only useful thing I will say is that they distract towers long enough to kill a chase victim. Also, you need to put 2-3 points into his conversion skill or they wont even spawn as often as you think when soldier die because it is based on chance. I have honestly never seen them offensively useful except maybe to scare a regulus by seeing 10 purple turds running toward him. The default scroll minions are much better in terms of use and help. So yes, they are good mine destroyers, if they are around, and if you actually know where the mines are in the first place. But I thought all general sent their lamb to the mines.

5) Mist form is nice and their are a few key times where it can save you, but it is a constant mana drain, which is something that is never good for erebus as his high lvl bat swarms cost alot of mana to use often. I have successfully timed Mist to avoid hammer slams and I have also watched rooks and UB back off my mist and ready towers/besital rage for when I came out only for me to flee getting messed up. Its not always an ace card and believe it or not Erebus does lose 1 vs 1.

 

And yes, You can bat swarm across chasms and stuff. They can patch that out if it bothers you that much. I simply thought it was just giving him versatility, kind of like Oak being able to for sure shield + warp.

Keep in mind I never argued that he was absolutely fine. It just didnt seem like everything is taken into account for the type of nerf he got. Scaling back the armor reduction/snare on bite while upping the mist mana drain would have been fine, but slicing Bite around from all angles nearly just seems like a sloppy way of cutting him down a bit. But as my original post said, we'll see when the patch drops. If you pick Sedna and you go against Erebus in the new patch and you win in typical attrition fights now versus him, I am sure you would be happy, but if the Erebus had be winning before, mostly by the hair on his teeth, would this be "balance"?