UB Spit Is NOT Overpowered?

its fine cept maybe 75% damage to structures only...

Balanced by mana cost.

Just make uproot better so least QoT is dangerous at something.

I agree entirely with your post, DalzK.

Though I would actually change it a bit. I would amend the damage to:

Rank 1: 50 damage + 450 DOT to 150 damage + 300 DOT

Rank 2: 100 damage + 800 DOT to 300 damage + 500 DOT

Rank 3: 150 damage + 1150 DOT to 500 damage + 700 DOT

Rank 4: 150 damage + 1500 DOT to 600 damage + 900 DOT

or so. Spit might be slightly too good against Torchbearer or a Tower, but it's actually not good enough against a Heal Sedna or any other general, because she can make it do almost no damage while healing through UB's entire auto-attack damage as well. Reducing the total damage while frontloading a larger portion of it would be fair to everyone involved.

Uproot needs serious buffs.

Or the ability to use it on heroes.  That would actually be decent, you know?

Disclaimer: I don't have enough QoT experience to speak with too much authority.

What if they built Violent Seige right in? My early game strategy often involves retreating towards towers for safety. But if said tower was shaking itself apart, it might be more dangerous. Just brainstorming a bit here.

Compost + uproot = 3k damage on a demigod.....

@wicked I find sedna is only a problem early on when spit doesn't do as much. Due to better creep killing and constant harrassment I find she starts to lose out very quickly.

Agreed I only have real issues with Sedna early game and if I'm in the same lane as her I just sit by my tower and farm creeps.  By the time I get to level 5-7 I usually can handle Sedna.  Foul grasp works wonders on her.

Also thee fact that although you both get a 10% speed increase. Only UB can get a 10% melee hit speed decrease. Meaning once he's on her, he's not coming off.

I think it depends a little, but once she hits Heal III, if she's the same level / gold, you cannot kill her unless she overextends. It heals 1200 HP, removes Spit, and costs less mana than Spit. I've certainly run into unkillable Sednas before. They aren't super dangerous per se, but they can harrass the hell out of you without any danger.

I just think Spit is a little all or nothing right now against Sedna, Oak, Erebus, or any DG with the purifying signet favor item.

Regulus really has no answer to the spit spamming UB's with a HoL

It's pretty lame that early game 2 spits is enough to make you blow a pot or send you back to heal..

And btw for everyone who says uproot sucks have you tried using it ingame enough?

Ill admit I havent but I mean how much more damage do you want it do to towers?

It's good at level 4, but not really good until then.  Level 1 it is hilariously bad.  500 damage?  Many demigods have nukes that do nearly as much as that but also hit demigods or aoe......

hey guys i play ub and ub only so its not in my favor to ask for balance

but if so many peeps think its fine as, they are probs right!

Once UB hits level 4 he can actually two shot a TB with spit.

@Dalzk

Played with it, and till level 3-4 it's really expensive for it's cost but when combined with compost she can wreck buildings, which is really good on the brothers maps. It's hard to say if it's better then spit when you consider the only target for uproot is buildings. The problem exists with the fact it takes 7 points compared to beasts 5 points. (putrid flow works on buildings.)

Level 4 spit is 1650 damage. with putrid flow it's 2150 damage. Can and should be use on other demi's.

Level 4 uproot is 2000 damage, with level 3 compost it's 3000 damage. Can only be used on buildings.

Personally would like to see compost not affect it and instead have uproot do 2500 damage for 4 points.(Do 1000 damage first rank then go up by 500 per level) For the final point maybe have it useable on other demigods for 50% the damage. So it'd do 1250 damage over 10 seconds for 905 mana.

i don't personally find that Venom Spit is severely imbalanced (as some claim it to be), but its definitely one of the strongest abilities in the game. it is balanced out at the moment by a fairly high mana cost (and by Beasts naturally somewhat small mana pool) but nothing is sacred and everything ought to be subject to review for rebalancing if necessary. Spit is currently high enough on the power level scale that it ought to be examined.

regarding the counters the OP mentioned

Oak's Shield does counter it completely, but is on a much much longer cooldown so it doesn't really neutralize the ability, it just counters one application of it. you'll get spit on again 7 seconds later and won't be able to Shield that one.

Queen's Bramble Shield doesn't counter it at all really. The spit will damage the shield with no loss of efficiency. it may seem that a Queen is able to avoid taking damage by Bramble Shielding through it but this isn't entirely accurate, its more like Queen just uses Bramble Shield as a supplement to her hitpoints in general. Spit still eats through it.

Erebus' Mist is a legitimately efficient counter to Spit. you can stay in the Mist for just 1 pulse and only spend 125 mana to remove all debuffs. this is fine though, its quite balanced by the penalty of having to spend about 3-4 seconds shifting into and out of Mist and doing basically nothing during this time.

Sedna's Heal is a pure counter to it at rank 3 and 4 when it will actually just remove the debuff completely. At rank 1 and 2 its not really any kind of counter, it just restores some lost health but it doesn't do anything to reduce the overall damage dealt by Spit.

the favor item and consumables that remove debuffs are good counters to it and are probably the best option for most DG's, though there's obviously a fairly high opportunity cost associated with using those.

My reply to you, transitive, would be that pure counters are actually a bad thing. Since a player only gets one unit (well, plus some minions as a general) and cannot quickly change their strategy, anything which made Spit useless or nearly would be too good. It's important to recognize Spit is UB's only actual targeted damage (Grasp does damage, but in negligable amounts).

A game like Demigod can't be Rock / Paper / Scissors, it has to be much more nuanced and with vast regions of grey. So the fact Queen's Bramble Shield can negate a Spit for a little less mana and on the same cooldown is more than fair, especially as she can give her Shield to someone else.

It's also important to recognize that while Oak's Shield is on a much longer cooldown, if he can remove one Spit and severely harm you while invulnerable with high powered auto attacks and penitence, then it doesn't matter what your cooldown is because you will die if you do not run away. We need to look at Spit in the context of other Demigods having the ability to attack you with large amounts of damage as well. Spit is probably better than Penitence overall, but UB doesn't have anything even close to Shield in terms of defense.

I think you are right except the range of the spit seems a bit over the top. It just feels wrong for a mele only character to have such a range on their best attack.

Spit is too good against buildings, and that's really all I'd say that's too good about it.  It's a strong ability and great at killing DG's, but if the beast doesn't have that, what does he have?  Plus if the game goes late and everyone has artifacts, spit becomes a bunch of wasted skill points that you never really use.

This I vehemently disagree with. All his other abilities are melee only, and he his slow is one of the least effective (in terms of % slow anyways, if not overall) and is melee only.

It's not wasted.  You still use it as enemies close to melee range.  I mean, why not?

I find it annoying because I see my health going down and now I can't get to the crystal quickly enough to survive, but that's my fault for not having a portable way of healing or not keeping my health up enough. I don't think it's over powered, just annoying.

Well that I disagree with that as well He is not slow at all. Heck, it doesn't take much to make him a speed demon.

UB may have strong melee dps but he is not a "melee" hero in the sense you're thinking. He's a hit and run melee hero meaning he needs ways of weaking an oppenent with hit and run tactics then using his speed to finish them. Rook or erebus are melee heroes in the sense you're thinking, UB not so much.

You can make him pretty fast, certainly, but every other assassin has multiple ranged attacks, and indeed, many of the generals have at least one. UB isn't so good that he needs a range nerf on his only mid range attack, especially as easily removed as it is.

Lowering the range on spit would be an absolutely terrible idea. It's the only thing in the game that makes him competitive early game, and it would force every UB to run Swift anklets, which is a stupidly overused item already. I despise how often that favor item is spammed, and this change would make it even worse.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say it is one of the worst possible changes you could make to the UB in general. I'd say that would be the fastest way to make him completely uncompetitive.