If they both had the same items Erebus would (obviously) still have a smaller mana pool.
But Vlemish and Plenor don't just increase your mana pool now do they? If erebus has less mana, MP/5 requires less time to restore him to full mana. So he may not have lasting power in mana but remember erebus' mana gets turned into health with bite. Fireball does not do the same for only a slight increase in straight damage compared to bite.
Stopped the straight comparison after the mana one, hence the lack of - at the start of each point. It was meant as an add-on idea that not only is bite better then fireball but when combined with his other abilties it becomes even better.
you are still comparing them!
Oops forgot a word. Guess could change the arguement though that erebus' abilties actually synergize with each other with their uses, while TB only gets that synergy with ice form.
Mist is barely any mana when used to dodge...
barely any mana compared to what? you are forced into staying in mist form for at least 3 seconds, which is 450 mana. Thats not "barely any mana" if it was 450/2000.
For the damage it can used to avoid ie 1650 from a UB's spit or 1050-1350 from a fireball... that's barely any mana.
...and bat swarm has a longish cooldown.
its cooldown has nothing to do with its mana cost, unless you are talking mana/s, which we weren't.
My bad, didn't clarify that due to a longish cooldown MP/5 has time to counter it's high mana cost. In addition smart use of bat swarm can earn you more kills. justifying the mana cost. Although that can be said of many abilties.
I can actually survive on just Vlemish if i'm careful with Erebus, while TB can't since he simply CAN NOT stand toe-to-toe with any demi-god. His lack of armour and hp means they always win.
So everyone but TB is overpowered?
Incomplete idea expressed here. TB needs the mana more due to him needing to cast more to kill someone then erebus as he he needs to avoid getting hit much more then any other demigod. So he indirectly needs to cast more due to auto-attack not being a viable option compared to other demi's. TB's main damage is his skills.
The point is: Most of what you say is based upon subjective experiences.
The point of this thread is: subjective opinions don't matter [when it comes to balance].
My opinions, and your opinions count for the exact same thing: nothing. The only difference is that I don't use opinions to justify my arguments.
In addition, BeardKing lays out the reasons why comparing X skill/demigod to Y skill/demigod is not effective in being objective.
...I know that people like to, rather than refer to statistics, compare skills between demigods to argue for or against how over powered an ability is, or is not. So today I thought I would inject something that I think is relevant to this discussion and I will do so with an example. What follows is a comparison of Erebus’s post nerf bite, to another move in the game (both at their top rank), and I think it really brings the importance of context home, that being we can not gain much insight through pure 1 to 1 comparison of skills, we must consider how, when, and why skills are used.
Erebus Bite: 0800mana, 775dmg, 00775healing, 00008range, 30% snare, -700armor,
Unknown: 0250mana, 750dmg, 02250healing, 05000range, damage aoe,
Disparity: -550mana, -25dmg, +1475healing, +4992range,
Cleary this unknown ability is a great deal stronger, people are in the habit of counting the total healing and damage possible, and if we ignore the aoe assuming only one target is hit, this move causes a 3000hp swing. As we can see the snare, armor debuff, and extra 25 damage are the only advantages bite has over this move. But guess what, this is a move from the lowest ranked demigod in pantheon, the QoT mulch ability. Now I don’t mean to imply her move is overpowered, rather that comparisons like this are not as useful, accurate, or objective as some believe. Just something to think about...
I am aware that he [BeardKing] already told you to read this in his response, but from your response, It seemed as though you did not.
You're probably right about this just being opinions but really what else do we have to use? Pantheon stats aren't useful as they're taken from matches where only four different demi-gods can be on each side. They're not pitted vs all eight demi-gods but simply vs four others. So then if we have nothing to use as evidence why was it nerfed? Experience and cross demigod comparisons are the only places we can get information from.
Yes context is important as although mulch seems good that data also fails to show you require a shambler in that exact spot and the required 1-2 second animation before the damage actually happens. So for those that didn't realize it, yes context is important but, fireball is used as the only other instant melee attack is Foul grasp. That can't be compared as beyond both of them leeching health and being instant their uses are entirely different. Fireball isn't instant nor melee range, so why use it? Well it's very mana effcient much like bite and it's use is much the same as bite, damage. It's also a staple for man TB builds as is bite.
So really skill comparisons can't be use as the only justification but given what we have to use as evidence there isn't much else.
Demigod vs Demigod comparisons don't work as it's a team game, but matches won't work as you can't guarentee everyone is equal in skill. So really how can you make a balance arguement whithout using skill comparisons?
I can't think of any way you can make a good arguement without comparisons.
EDIT: As a side psychological little note. People get Avatars. It makes it much easier to recall what you posted since you can associte the memory of reading it with the avatar. It also makes it easier to find previous posts as you're looking for a picture rather then words.
