Balance: Please turn down the stupid.

Pardon the hubris, but lately I've seen a lot of inanely retarded posts regarding balance. Let's set some things straight. First we need to start with the very definition of "balance":

bal⋅ance

–noun

1. a state of equilibrium or equipoise; equal distribution of weight, amount, etc.

Note the key words equal distribution. These are very important! The term balance does not directly refer to general strength -- it refers to distribution.

Let's apply this knowledge. In one post, I saw the suggestion that the Rook's towers are balanced because they are strong on maps but weak on large maps. This is an example of what I regard as an "inanely retarded post", because it's the very opposite of balance! There is a clearly unequal distribution in the strength of towers, thus it is appropriate to call them "unbalanced". It makes no claim as to their relative strength. They could be too weak or too strong or too purple or too smelly; it really doesn't matter, they are still "unbalanced". Now, to be clear, it's ok if one ability is weak on some maps as long as another ability is equally better on the same maps.

Additionally, all demigods must be equally potent on all maps, and it's pretty clear that they aren't. For example, one insightful poster noted that Erebus's bat swarm can cross gaps on Crucible and Exile that otherwise require a long trip. He (or she) did not make strong judgement to this, only pointing out that it felt unfair. That's perfectly valid criticism! Yet several people proceeded to flame or offer flawed theorycraft (eg, it's ok because you can buy a $5000+ item to get the same ability yadayada).

So this brings up a second important point. Check your theorycraft at the door. I'm tired of reading about ridiculously contrived impractical counters that never happen in real games. If you can't offer real gameplay experience, then don't post about balance.

Finally, please consider Pantheon in your posts. It is simply not OK if the counter to something on Light is also on the Light side. Same for Dark. If your post contains a contrived theorycraft counter to something on the same side, you have just posted something inanely retarded. Please stop it.

In summary:
- Balance refers to equal distribution. All demigods should be equally potent at the start of the game, regardless of map or team composition. Imbalance should result from the direct stategic actions of players.
- Theorycraft is retarded, but is usually used as the exclusive justification for balance posts.
- Pantheon matters too.

90,692 views 35 replies
Reply #1 Top

A well formulated, well educated layout on the theories and conventions of gaming. I must be drunk.

Reply #2 Top

This reminds me... there is no "Read before posting!" pinned/locked thread in these forums [that i have seen].

This post should be it.

Reply #4 Top

Hard to say its a chess match imo. Some abilities mechanics need to be looked at to see if they are working as intended but they are pretty balanced given the intended restrictions. Rooks towers probably do need to be limited to a max per map based on how many rooks you have based on how many players your facing and the map. These are finer details though that i'm sure over time will be looked at.

Reply #5 Top

[...L]ately I've seen a lot of inanely retarded posts regarding balance. 

I guess I'll pass on replying any further on this thread ... which seems to be reserved to the non-retarded, PRO elite. :S   

Reply #6 Top

I like this post but I disagree that all demigods needs to be equally potent at the beginning of the game. Some demigods can be allowed to be stronger late game and still remained balanced. This also allows for a variety of gameplay styles.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Sorceresss, reply 5

quoting post [...L]ately I've seen a lot of inanely retarded posts regarding balance. 
I guess I'll pass on replying any further on this thread ... which seems to be reserved to the non-retarded, PRO elite.   

Not at all. I mostly wanted to stress that real experience should trump all else. It bothers me that most posts are only backed up by a bunch of theory.

 

 

I like this post but I disagree that all demigods needs to be equally potent at the beginning of the game. Some demigods can be allowed to be stronger late game and still remained balanced. This also allows for a variety of gameplay styles.

I worded it poorly. I meant equal potency given the entire duration of the game (ie, I agree with you 100%).

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Sorceresss, reply 5

I guess I'll pass on replying any further on this thread ... which seems to be reserved to the non-retarded, PRO elite.   

Good! KNOW YOUR PLACE PEASANT!

Quoting christophermcne, reply 3
You like the word 'theorycraft'?

It's a legitimate term coined from the Warcraft 3 days on Gamefaqs. A lot of folks would talk about how epic their idea was. They were well thought out, well organized, and coherent. The problem is, in actual game play they failed. These people would defend their ideals despite never having tested them. It is a nice word.

Reply #9 Top

Your hubris will be punished by my god ZEUS! Eat charged electrons... I mean Bolts from the LORD!

Reply #10 Top

The All Father will not tolerate such blasphemy may you be struck down by Gungnir!

Reply #11 Top

Quoting AngryZealot, reply 7
Not at all. I mostly wanted to stress that real experience should trump all else. It bothers me that most posts are only backed up by a bunch of theory.

A call to sanity is always a nice idea.  However I see plenty of retarded "I can't kill Bilbo Baggins therefore Bilbo Baggins isn't balanced posts.  Real experience is greatly dependant on skill and quantity of experience, and also you will get a lot of "l2p" posts if you talk about real experience as people just like to pretend they are awesome.

Reply #12 Top

Quoting Haree78, reply 11

Quoting AngryZealot, reply 7Not at all. I mostly wanted to stress that real experience should trump all else. It bothers me that most posts are only backed up by a bunch of theory.

A call to sanity is always a nice idea.  However I see plenty of retarded "I can't kill Bilbo Baggins therefore Bilbo Baggins isn't balanced posts.  Real experience is greatly dependant on skill and quantity of experience, and also you will get a lot of "l2p" posts if you talk about real experience as people just like to pretend they are awesome.

Agreed. I play as the UB and I used to have a really tough time 1v1 against Rooks. But then I realized that I was attacking him the wrong way. I was being too agressive when I didn't have the items to back me up. So I switched up my play style against Rooks and I haven't had a problem since.

The point is that if you're having trouble against a particular DG the usual solution is to change your strategy, not complain that he is over powered.

Reply #13 Top

From my perspective, when I read a response like that, it can be difficult tell the theorycrafters from the story tellers. However, posts like "it's too early to judge balance" are a particular giveaway that a person is spewing nonsense.

Reply #14 Top

No Theory craft?  I don't need any of your "science" it means nothing next my overwhelming anecdotal evidence!

Reply #15 Top

It's a legitimate term coined from the Warcraft 3 days on Gamefaqs

It was coined a lot earlier than Warcraft 3, and sure as hell not on gamefaqs

Reply #16 Top

Pantheon does not matter, neither does dominate or slaughter.  You don't take into account broken/highly flawed game types when balancing.  Patheon is hosed regardless of game balance and as such shouldn't be taken as a factor.  Its a poorly designed PuG format.

Reply #17 Top

From my perspective, when I read a response like that, it can be difficult tell the theorycrafters from the story tellers. However, posts like "it's too early to judge balance" are a particular giveaway that a person is spewing nonsense.

Have to disagree with you there AZ, at least partly. For those who already played beta it isn't too early but when I see somebody who played 50-100 games and this even with only 1 or 2 of the 8 Demigods, it makes me cry. To understand balance you need to have played with all Demigods. There is no way they can judge balance already, especially not without a meaningful matchmaking system. What they can do is give away their impressions from a standpoint of a new players, this is important feedback of course as the game has also to be balanced for the new players which are the most important part of a community which has the desire to grow.

Okay you can judge but chances are you judge wrongly. There are so many threads about QoT or Sedna being underpowered its insane. Its also never good to look at single Demigods, Demigod isn't balanced for 1vs1 so the Team-Combos are what to look at, if there is a Demigod which is needed in every Combo chances are high he is too good. If there is a Demigod which is never used in any Combo, chances are he is too bad.

One of the biggest flaws in all the balance discussion is also that the authors don't mention the game size, yet the balance changes a lot depending on the game size. 2vs2 has a completely different balance from 3vs3 - 4vs4 and 5vs5 also have another balance but the biggest difference is between 2vs2 and 3vs3. The tricky part is to ensure that the balance is rather good on all game sizes - 2vs2 probably has the problem that 2 Generals beat every 1 General 1 Assassin Combo and even more every 2 Assassin Combo. 3vs3 is nicely balanced I think.

Also just because Erebus can bat across the gap on exile and crucible doesn't necessarily make him op on that map. On crucible his increased movement speed is rather meaningless compared to maps like leviathan, on Exile other Demigods benefit more from the mana regen and hp regen flag then he does, specifically all Assassins.

 

 

 

 

Reply #18 Top

In all honesty. A lot of players from this game will be DoTA players. You cant expect no "balanz is broke!" posts :seal:

Reply #19 Top

Quoting TheBigOne, reply 17

From my perspective, when I read a response like that, it can be difficult tell the theorycrafters from the story tellers. However, posts like "it's too early to judge balance" are a particular giveaway that a person is spewing nonsense.


Have to disagree with you there AZ, at least partly. For those who already played beta it isn't too early but when I see somebody who played 50-100 games and this even with only 1 or 2 of the 8 Demigods, it makes me cry. To understand balance you need to have played with all Demigods. There is no way they can judge balance already, especially not without a meaningful matchmaking system. What they can do is give away their impressions from a standpoint of a new players, this is important feedback of course as the game has also to be balanced for the new players which are the most important part of a community which has the desire to grow.

Okay you can judge but chances are you judge wrongly. There are so many threads about QoT or Sedna being underpowered its insane. Its also never good to look at single Demigods, Demigod isn't balanced for 1vs1 so the Team-Combos are what to look at, if there is a Demigod which is needed in every Combo chances are high he is too good. If there is a Demigod which is never used in any Combo, chances are he is too bad.

One of the biggest flaws in all the balance discussion is also that the authors don't mention the game size, yet the balance changes a lot depending on the game size. 2vs2 has a completely different balance from 3vs3 - 4vs4 and 5vs5 also have another balance but the biggest difference is between 2vs2 and 3vs3. The tricky part is to ensure that the balance is rather good on all game sizes - 2vs2 probably has the problem that 2 Generals beat every 1 General 1 Assassin Combo and even more every 2 Assassin Combo. 3vs3 is nicely balanced I think.

Also just because Erebus can bat across the gap on exile and crucible doesn't necessarily make him op on that map. On crucible his increased movement speed is rather meaningless compared to maps like leviathan, on Exile other Demigods benefit more from the mana regen and hp regen flag then he does, specifically all Assassins.
 

All of this.

Except also need to look at what DGs can effectively counter others as well as combos.

And erebus still is countered by highly defensive DGs. Rook towers still get destroyed by minion-based builds.

Reply #20 Top

The pantheon argument may be less important at the moment, however, in the future it should be the main mode played.

If the matchmaking wasn't so fubarred, then a lot more people would be playing it.

Especially if they start handing out titles etc. If it got to the point like Supcom where you could have icons against your name and only those icons/medals could be gained through Pantheon, then that mode would become king.

Reply #21 Top

Very good post.  It should be required reading before posting any "Nerf X" threads.  Another thing that should be required reading before posting any "Nerf X" threads is this:

http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/demigods/

You can't argue with numbers.  I have seen more "Nerf Erubus" threads than any other.  I'm not sure why this is.  Possibly because people that haven't played Erubus don't know his strengths and weaknesses, and if you let him build a minion army he is extremely powerful.  But, he's also very weak 1v1, has low health and damage output.  If you look at actual gameplay statistics, it looks like UB and Regulus could use a nerf more than Erubus.

Personally, the only things I think are a little OP right now are UB's spit affecting buildings, and Regulus being able to snipe people across the map through the fog of war.  Rook's towers can get a little OP on some maps as well.

Reply #22 Top

You can't argue with numbers.

True, but there seems to be a widespread assumption that public Pantheon statistics are the only statistics that the balance team have to go on.  I'd be very surprised if that were the case.

Reply #23 Top

illumin8 you can very well argue with this numbers as its quite odd that all demigods have a win ratio bigger than 50% except for QoT  which shouldn't be possible (the wins and losses don't match up) if it works correctly, furthermore I think games from the AI are included and some AIs have a few thousand games on their account...

Reply #24 Top

illumin8 you can very well argue with this numbers as its quite odd that all demigods have a win ratio bigger than 50% except for QoT which shouldn't be possible (the wins and losses don't match up)

I think this is explained by people disconnecting when they are losing... maybe.

Reply #25 Top

Quoting jochance, reply 24
I think this is explained by people disconnecting when they are losing... maybe.

This.  It doesn't count AI wins as wins.  Since the AI is stupid, you can get a greater than 50% win ratio.