Response to Frogboy's Tuesday May 19th Journal - Please read and respond

from Demigod Forums

Frogboy's update yesterday contains an issue which I think could be easily clarified between the community and SD -- or at least to me seems like an issue with an obvious answer, so I quote Frogboy at length:

One of our frustrations (and this is one of the reasons I’m not a fan of MP games in the first place) is how inconsiderate some people are.  We spent a lot of time trying to figure out why people were getting “disconnected” right when a game starts.  Well, it turns out, from looking at the logs, is that some people, having only 2 on 2 or 3 vs. 3 where an AI player had to be substituted to fill in the gap that some people just quit right at the start.  I understand the rationale but it’s still objectifying other people’s time. I won’t debate people on the issue as I think it’s a matter of agreeing to disagree.

End of quote

To start, I'm not sure I understand precisely what Frogboy is saying, but it's either one of two things.

1. People are quitting when a pantheon game starts because there is an AI player in the game

or

2. People are quitting pantheon games on start-up and causing an AI player to fill the gap.

In the first case, I think this issue should be clarified. I think it is absurd that a game developer to suggest that the consumers of their product are going to be benevolent when it comes to the facility of the game which generates an enduring record (in what is a competitive game) and likewise, potentially the most fun if players are interested in competition. If the game is starting with 3 vs 2+AI there is an immediate, obvious disadvantage. To the team that is playing with the AI, they are generally no longer competitive (in fact, 2v3 is more competitive because there is no AI to feed). To the players without the AI, the game is no longer fun because they are going to do the pwn-dance all over their opponents AI. In either case, the match is illegitemate in the mind of any competitive player as one side has a gushing wound from the get-go. The issue, then, is not slandering a community-base as "inconsiderate," but finding a functional solution to the problem. This isn't a suggest-a-fix post, so I won't ramble about fixes, but there are many and if it has to be trial and error, so be it.

If the thrust of Frogboy's comment here is that the problem with pantheon-game functionality is that people are quitting at the beginning of games for any reason at all really, I assure you that is correct. The most likely reason is that they were trying for a 2v2 with a friend and didn't open the connectin tab quickly enough to check if their partner was in the game with them. I think the solution to this is self-explanatory. There could be a ton of other reasons, namely personal connection issues etc etc, but there are viable solutions to all of these. Again, those solutions are probably found in a thousand posts on these forums so I won't post them here.

Anyway, before I get the "wall of text crits you for" replies, please keep in mind I write this post as a member of the DG community. One who has sat, content to let DG work things out with connectivity, balance and other issues -- and contributed to much constructive community discussion during that time. I feel Frogboy's comments represent either ( a ) a shallow attempt to blame some of the games issues on DG players ( b ) a blatant ignorance of the problems plaguing one of the games most interest features or ( c ) an far too ideal view of the online game communities an their moral obligation to all other players in that community.

If you feel any of the three possibilities above is an accurate description of Frogboy's comments yesterday, please reply and let SD know what you think.

Naz

2,697 views 11 replies
Reply #1 from Demigod Forums Top

I agree, an AI player, no matter what difficulty, is a death sentence to it's team, and so of course people quit if they feel they dont have a chance at winning, or if they care about their record.

However in responce to your A, B, C representations, I have to point out that A: Whether you like it or not, it IS our fault that this problem occurs. We make the choice. B: He has stated the problem (And drawn your attention to it) and therefore is not ignorant of it. C: Well... Yeah, you're right about that one. That perfect community should be hoped for, but not expected. It's similar to how people turn into assholes when they get in their cars and how teenagers will cut lines at their school, but not at the airport.

Reply #2 from Demigod Forums Top

I think he stated his position and response to it pretty well. He admits to not really liking multiplayer games because of things like this. That's fine and good, what more do you want from him? He thinks it is reasonable to play 3v3 with an AI, but there are those who don't. It is their decision to play without AI and all GPG and Stardock can do is support them and help them do that, which they are with the new "no ai" command. If quitting a game with AI is objectifying other peoples' time, then having to join a game and find out it has AI is objectifying my time. No one is at fault for that, but playing with AI just isn't as fun as playing with people. I play online to play with people and if I'm going to play against AI I'd rather go find another game. The issue here is that you are locked into a game once it starts. There is no drop-in play so an AI in the game can't be remedied. It's not like a 5v5 deathmatch game where if someone drops and he's replaced by a bot (which can generally be competitive) he will soon be replaced by a person.

 

If Frogboy's response was "it's immature an unfair to leave if there is AI and we aren't going to do anything to adress this" then yeah, flame him all you want. But his reponse was "I don't understand it myself, but I know other people get it and do it, so we're trying to address it."

Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from Demigod Forums Top

That's fine and good, what more do you want from him?
End of quote

Make a game that works. Accept his responsibility as the mouthpiece of an organization that accepted the community's hard-earned money as payment for a product that was, excuse my language, a flying pile of smoldering dog ****.

Being truly inconsiderate, imo, is exchanging the failure that was this game's release version for real money.

Naz

Reply #4 from Demigod Forums Top

Honestly that whole paragraph looks to me like a load of bs. If he believes that an ai-substitue is fair, then leaving and having an ai replace you is no problem, right? And if it's not fair it shouldn't have been done in the first place.

Reply #5 from Demigod Forums Top

AI are complete garbage, I will leave the game if I start with one on my team and I have no problem with the other team leaving if they start with an AI

Reply #6 from Demigod Forums Top

Being truly inconsiderate, imo, is exchanging the failure that was this game's release version for real money.
End of quote

You've always been able to get your money back, so this statement has no legs to stand on.

Reply #7 from Demigod Forums Top

This may be technically demanding, but why not have the option for players to place themselves in a queue to join a game that has uneven odds.  For example, a game starts and team A and B both have 3 players, but A loses one player due to disconnect.  The game then searches the queue for a player to connect to the game with the lowest average ping (not exceeding a certain ping threshold).  The character joins the game at the average level of all players rounded up, is given a certain amount of gold based on level, and earns a large favor bonus for joining.  There could also be additional perks for those helping out the team, such as greatly increased personal gold rate, access to unique items, etc.  If it's a pantheon game, you could also have it only positively affect their rating.  While a team is down a player, another suggestion, is to increase the power of all units/towers/and remaining demigods, and increase gold rate to compensate.  If team B also loses one player, the search in the queue ends, and all increases in power to the previously undermanned team ends.

An AI teammate is not a benefit to a team who has lost a player, it can be a monumental hindrance!

 

Reply #8 from Demigod Forums Top

i'm just going out on a limb here...

 

why is this in the Demigod Idea section of the forums?  would it make more sense for somehwere like General? or maybe even in Multiplayer.. but Ideas? come on people.

 

this might be ment as an idea to solve a problem... but it really should be the in the form:  Problm = Bad AI   Solution = (insert idea, not opinion)

Reply #9 from Demigod Forums Top

You've always been able to get your money back, so this statement has no legs to stand on.
End of quote

That wasn't part of my OP, and I'm not gonna argue the validity of that comment. Thank you for trying to be the truth-police though, "taking tertiary comments and correcting them out-of-context one step at a time!"

In any case, I'm sorry if this post is in the wrong forum. My justification would be that the the subject is ideas about Demigod, it's just not proposing any. If it doesn't fit here then where? The Demigod ideas section is where SD does all their research rather than actually testing the game, so I figured it might catch someone's eye.

 

Naz

Reply #10 from Demigod Forums Top

I have to agree. The Ai sucks realy... U don't stand a chance when it comes to a teammate, who is an ai. Especially in flagcontrol it is more artificial foolishness. Is there even another script for the ai, compared to     . I mean: i played a game...2 vs 3 (how is that possible?!) ... I was on the side having 2 players, and my teamate was an ai (-.-). Flagcontrol, my opponents captured averaging 25 flags, me 50, and the ai 4.... I mean, do I have to say anything more?

Reply #11 from Demigod Forums Top

I agree that even a Hard AI is a fairly crappy team mate, but play against them and see how "crappy" they are.