Tough Love for the AI

Sometimes it's hard to see, but the AI now is alot better than it was in Beta.  I say it's hard because in most cases the AI feeds kills like a little tramp. 

But on the off chance that GPG is working on AI along with everything else, a few observations:

First - the good stuff -

- Sometimes on a map like Cataract AI will work to cap side and portal flags.  It's a nice secondary action, and they are decent at not dying to towers while doing this.  Of course if I port in then they die, but still, interesting initiative.  (If they actually locked the flags once they capped them that would be even more interesting) 

- AI are alot less likely to get pulled all the way to the enemy citadel than they used to be.  They can still be pulled into tower range, and across tower range, but at least they won't go all the way.  Small favors, huh?

- Occasionally when all the human opponents leave there will be some sort of Perfect Storm event where all the AI work together for a brief moment to dismantle my DG before I can even react.  It looks like it resets when I die though, because the rest of the match is typically easy. 

The AI is using Goal Prioritizing, right?  So if you could tweak the AI that replaces humans in multiplayer games in the following ways then it would be less frustrating to play with, if not ideal.  (The ideal solution would be to control AI movement just like a minion, but I doubt we'll see that.  The super ideal solution would be to have those perfect storm events every time, not just once every ten games for 10 seconds) 

 - Support human allies 

Don't go off on your own and farm grunts, don't push towers, don't cap flags.  Show no initiative.  Yes, this handicaps xp levels and map control.  It's worth it, because when AI goes off by itself then the opponents kill it over and over and over, and the gold and experience advantage they gain from this is far higher than what you lose by staying close.  I want Scooby Doo AI - he should leap into my arms and yell YIKES!! when the bad guys show up.  Even better would be the option to select AI "stance" while playing - agressive, neutral, and defensive. 

I admire the initiative in capping portal flags, but I don't need it and if you fail you just handed a big chunk of xp and gold to the opponents.  Cowardly, sniveling AI is preferable.  In line with that -

- Self-Preservation 

Something like - calculate maximum damage per 10 seconds available to enemies within 30 meters and retreat when this number exceeds available health.  AI seems to have no consideration for opponent pocket nukes and DoT.  None.  If you can't program to calc this (which is understandable because I'm making this up as I go along) then just put AI survivability as the primary goal in every scenario.   

Calculate frequency of attacks from opponent Demigods on AI relative to attacks on other targets.  If the frequency against the AI is higher then retreat until frequency shifts, regardless of HP.  AI has no consideration of focused firing or attack priority positioning.  Get out of the heat if you can't stand the fire. 

If two opponent Demigods are within 30 meters and allies are further than 15 meters retreat until parameters change, regardless of relative health.  AI has no consideration of *potential* health.  All I have to do is pop a pot or shield up and the tables have turned.  Only newbies and AI try to 1v2.  It doesn't work for either. 

If health is lower than 30% retreat to crystal or heal (don't just hang out behind a tower when you have 50 hp, don't turn around and try to take me with you).  Towers and grunts don't offer protection, and I won't forget you when you leave my sightline, especially if you then turn right back around and try to come attack me again with your 50 hp. 

-Attacking

If opponent health is at least 50% lower than AI and neither allies nor opponents are within 30m then attack and pursue only if AI attack options are calced to produce a kill within 10 seconds.  If opponents are within 30m - kill solution must be 5 seconds.  In absence of these parameters hold ground or retreat.  Don't follow my 2k hp Shield Oak across the map with your 5k hp UB when I have two allies at full health beating on you.  You won't get the kill, but after I've kited you far enough I will turn around and we will kill you.  Just trust me on this one, ok?

If allied DG is attacking an opponent within 30m cease current activity and move to support. 

When attacking an enemy DG use debuff and stun abilities immediately, except when Shield or Bramble are present.  Continue to prioritize stun and debuff attacks over autoattacks and nukes.  When out of mana retreat, regardless of relative hp, unless kill solution is 5 seconds or less. 

General Minions should focus fire on 1. Enemy priest minions 2.  Enemy DGs 3.  Enemy siege minions 4.  Enemy Reinforcements 5.  Enemy Structures

- Upgrades and Spending

AI buy alot of fancy gear and gadgets and upgrades that have no application the way they use them. 

Your Warlord's Punisher just stole some of my mana.  Great, in the time it took you to cast I took 1.5k of your hit points.  Also, I have 4k mana.  And Heart of Life. 

You upgraded the Death Timer.  Awesome, now the enemy can kill you 10% quicker than they could before. 

You have level 4 Minotaur Minions, and they have almost as much armor and life as you do.  Great, guess which of the three of you I will be killing first? 

At the citadel AI should concentrate only on Building HP, Building Defense, Gold, Experience, and Grunt Armor and Weapons.  They shouldn't upgrade to priests 10 minutes into the game.  They shouldn't upgrade the death timer, ever.  Ever.  (Actually if you are reading this and you have ever upgraded the death timer in any game that wasn't a 1v1 with Draconic Death Penalty then you should slap yourself)

At the shop AI should concentrate on +HP, +Armor, and +Speed items.  Mana, teleport and consumables should be secondary, and fancy randoms shouldn't come into play.  Sorry, I know I've learned alot from watching how nightmare AI play (apparently triggering Wand of Speed before casting Boulder makes the boulder move faster?) but in a skilled pvp game the jazz hands just don't cut it unless they are being deployed by people who know how to *plan* and *time* and *adapt.*  AI doesn't know how to do any of these things.  

TL;DR - no one likes to play with AI right now.  But we would dislike it less if it stopped feeding kills and acting stupid. 

If you want to skip all the programming just make the replacement AI come in at Nightmare difficulty.  They will still be dumb, but at least they won't die so quick.  Nightmare might be too much for new players to handle, so make it a selection option in the lobby. 

Thanks,
Kestrel

6,607 views 23 replies
Reply #1 Top

You upgraded the Death Timer.  Awesome, now the enemy can kill you 10% quicker than they could before. 

You have level 4 Minotaur Minions, and they have almost as much armor and life as you do.  Great, guess which of the three of you I will be killing first?

Was pretty funny. :thumbsup:

To be honest, I am pretty disappointed with the AI in this game given how good it is in the other stardock games (Gal Civ 2, Sins)... what happened?

Reply #2 Top

Quoting Sly_Squash, reply 1
You upgraded the Death Timer.  Awesome, now the enemy can kill you 10% quicker than they could before. 

You have level 4 Minotaur Minions, and they have almost as much armor and life as you do.  Great, guess which of the three of you I will be killing first?


Was pretty funny.

To be honest, I am pretty disappointed with the AI in this game given how good it is in the other stardock games (Gal Civ 2, Sins)... what happened?

Gal Civ 2 and Sins have different developers than Demigod. Stardock developed Gal Siv 2 and Sins was developed by Ironclad Games. Demigod was developed by GPG.

 

Reply #3 Top

I thought I read somewhere that Frogboy did the AI for all of them.  But I suppose I'm mistaken. 

Edit: and I was

Reply #4 Top

(Actually if you are reading this and you have ever upgraded the death timer in any game that wasn't a 1v1 with Draconic Death Penalty then you should slap yourself)

What about playing a kamikaze Oak?

*plan* and *time* and *adapt.*  AI doesn't know how to do any of these things. 

I've never seen an AI that could do any of the above.

 

I've found some other quirks about the AI.  First of all, they very rarely purchase any citadel upgrades until they've killed you once.  I test it out by just purposefully drawing out a 1v1 against a nightmare AI.  He never bought a single citadel upgrade right up until he finally managed to kill me after silencing me with deathbringer and hitting me with Ashkandor.  I also saw him use a cloak of flames.  That said, I have occasionally seen them get the first building health upgrade without having killed me.  It seems random to me, as they either buy it very early or not until after they've killed you at least once.

I actually have seen the AI use flag locks before.  I was taking their own portals on Prison, and after retaking them they locked them.  Seemed smart enough, as it got me to leave, but I've never seen the AI flag lock since.

Overall, I have to say there are some characters the AI actually mangles horribly.  Rook, Queen, Torchbearer, and Erebus are played atrociously.  It plays Sedna, Oak, and Regulus relatively well (as far as the AI goes).  The unclean beast depends on its skill choice.  If it picks spit, it's fairly good.  If it choses other skills it's going to suck horribly.

 

 

Reply #5 Top

AI queen is very bad, and rook is pretty bad.  I think it plays Erebus OK.  Sedna is definitely one of its highlights.

Reply #6 Top

The AI isn't bad, it just doesn't understand the first rule of multiplayer: Do not die - EVER!!! I'd like to see a few AI tactics changed to improve it's usefulness:

- don't try to fight in a 2v1 situation

- compare speed of opponent and AI; if opponent speed is higher fall back to a teammate or tower immediately

- health lower than 50% and enemy demigod in range: fall back, use health potion (the small one) or run to crystal

- don't use teleport scrolls to retreat if enemy in range: humans know how to interrupt! A teleport only gives me 2 more seconds to deal damage and finish you off with an interrupt/damage combo. Invest the money in health potions and and speed upgrades instead (>50% of my AI kills are due to interrupted teleports!!!)

- if health is <80%, distance to own towers >30 and teleport detected: retreat

- don't buy monk citadell upgrade (the player should decide when it is time to push)

- buy the first XP, gold and building health upgrades asap

- spam minions at towers/forts when the other team is not around, it's win/win

I think this would improve the AIs survival chances considerably. Flag capping/defending capabilities might be gimped a little but I'd rather have an enemy flag taken down to 75% and the AI in my base upgrading the citadel than to give away free kills.

Reply #7 Top

Pet peeve of mine..

- Don't decide that right after you killed the enemy team is the perfect time to walk back to citadel/shop. Enemy respawn is when you should be pushing forward.

Reply #8 Top

I just suicide on some towers for a quick teleport back and I'm back in the action.  :thumbsup:

Reply #9 Top

Quoting Sly_Squash, reply 3
I thought I read somewhere that Frogboy did the AI for all of them.  But I suppose I'm mistaken. 

Frogboy isn't involved in any coding on Demigod. His role is primarily to take a beating. :)

Reply #10 Top

kk, sorry for spreading misinformation then.

He rolls with the punches well. :ninja:    You picked the right frog. :frogboy:

Reply #12 Top

good post, hope some of that makes it to GPG

Reply #13 Top

I've watched the AI die solo to towers and a fortress. It just walked up, started attacking a tower, and died. Why is the AI programmed to attack towers even if it takes damage from 4 of them?

Reply #14 Top

Played a Pantheon game lastnight (Brothers, dominate). It was supposed to be 3vs3 but one of each side disconnected upon loading. The computer AI (Oak) went 4-7 but our AI (TB) went 0-10. Our TB AI would fly right past the demigod fights only to attack the creeps. The Oak AI capped flags on dominate but the TB AI did not.  

Reply #15 Top

Why worry about AI for a game that is directed towards Multiplayer? Leave it how it is and use the companies resources elsewhere.

Reply #16 Top

Quoting StiL, reply 15
Why worry about AI for a game that is directed towards Multiplayer? Leave it how it is and use the companies resources elsewhere.

Because the AI takes over if a player ragequits or isn't connected at the start of the match, which isn't uncommon. When this only happens to one team it's basically GG for the human players on that team. We want to make the AI smarter to give unlucky players a chance at still winning.

Reply #17 Top

Hmm I don't know if it's inherent to EASY AI bots, but I often see them do pretty much nothing:

 

* Stand at healing crystal for 2 minutes

* Be close to a cappable tower with no enemy around, but just stand there a few yards out of cap range

* Walk back and forth between lanes without actually attacking anything or chosing a side

* Not helping with enemy DG kill, idling around again

* Not responding to enemy attacks on base. Often they'll keep pummeling critters while 2 enemy DGs are pounding our base at the other side

 

Dunno if it's by design because it's EASY AI, but these points tend to get me frustrated very quick.

Reply #18 Top

Quoting Sly_Squash, reply 5
AI queen is very bad, and rook is pretty bad.  I think it plays Erebus OK.  Sedna is definitely one of its highlights.

Yesterday I saw an enemy AI Erebus wander around OUR side of the map, getting attacked by towers, until he died. There were no creeps, allies, or enemies nearby. He also did not attack a single tower or cap a single flag. He literally just walked around randomly until he died from the towers.

fail.

 

edit: This was an AI replacement for a leaver in a multiplayer game. I don't know what difficulty setting this corresponds to.

Reply #19 Top

Quoting twifightDG, reply 17
Hmm I don't know if it's inherent to EASY AI bots, but I often see them do pretty much nothing:

 

* Stand at healing crystal for 2 minutes

* Be close to a cappable tower with no enemy around, but just stand there a few yards out of cap range

* Walk back and forth between lanes without actually attacking anything or chosing a side

* Not helping with enemy DG kill, idling around again

* Not responding to enemy attacks on base. Often they'll keep pummeling critters while 2 enemy DGs are pounding our base at the other side

 

Dunno if it's by design because it's EASY AI, but these points tend to get me frustrated very quick.

stop playing with AI... period..... either that or try nightmare they're the only ones that are decent.

Reply #20 Top

Personally I think the only solution for the AI is complete removal.

The main problems are that it NEVER flees, and completely disregards incoming damage in its decisions. (Runs into towers, ignores 2v1 demigods attacking it, etc)

And it will often just stand around for no reason.

Reply #21 Top

Quoting Cowbuttzex, reply 19


stop playing with AI... period..... either that or try nightmare they're the only ones that are decent.

 

I'll decide for myself how I like to play this game, thank you very much.

Reply #22 Top

FFS again I had a AI player (UB again) does walk back and forth between 2 spots, with nothing actually there, doing nothing! Just back and forth. Later he sat near a tower 2 times, no one around, doing nothing, not even capping the flag 2 feet from him :S

Reply #23 Top

Usually I find the best thing to do is semi-follow the ai around.  He might not go where you want to go always, but at least

1.) you can protect it (somewhat)

2.) anywhere you go you have a free double-team

3.) it's not like the ai is gonna split up and cap flags on its own generally anyway.